Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 2 minutes ago, blackbird said: There is nothing wrong with trustworthy Biblical teachers and articles as long as they are supported by the Bible. You say you don't care what they think, but where do your beliefs come from? Are you saying you never listened to men preaching or read anything other than the Bible? It doesn't mean you can't read anything else or listen to preachers but what they say should line up with the Bible in a clear way. Listening to godly men preach is often how we first learn about certain Biblical matters. What would be the point of going to church if we shouldn't listen to anyone preach? The Lord saved me 43 years ago by my listening to the gospel being preached on a radio ministry program. He quoted the Bible and I verified it by reading it myself. Listening to "godly men" preach is why there are 20-30,000 different denominations. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Yakuda said: Listening to "godly men" preach is why there are 20-30,000 different denominations. The reason there are 20 or 30,000 denominations is not because people listened to godly men preach. The reason is because over time, people had slightly different interpretations on various teachings or practices. But many if not most believe the fundamental doctrines. Many if not most believe in the deity of Jesus Christ and believe that he is the Son of God who came to earth to suffer and die for the sins of mankind. That he was raised from the dead. There is nothing in the Bible that says every believer must belong to one earthly organization ruled by one denomination. The true church is composed of all true believers in Christ who were born again by faith in Jesus Christ and believe he died for them, atoned for their sins, and was raised from the dead. Being in a different denomination does not form an impediment to being born again and being part of the true church which is made up of all true believers. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, blackbird said: Listening to godly men preach… Is it always men? Do you ever listen to godly women preach? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 6 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: Is it always men? Do you ever listen to godly women preach? No. "9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; {broided: or, plaited} 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. " 1 Timothy 2:9-15 KJV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 23 minutes ago, blackbird said: The reason there are 20 or 30,000 denominations is not because people listened to godly men preach. The reason is because over time, people had slightly different interpretations on various teachings or practices. But many if not most believe the fundamental doctrines. Many if not most believe in the deity of Jesus Christ and believe that he is the Son of God who came to earth to suffer and die for the sins of mankind. That he was raised from the dead. There is nothing in the Bible that says every believer must belong to one earthly organization ruled by one denomination. The true church is composed of all true believers in Christ who were born again by faith in Jesus Christ and believe he died for them, atoned for their sins, and was raised from the dead. Being in a different denomination does not form an impediment to being born again and being part of the true church which is made up of all true believers. If they all believed the same fundamental doctrine there wouldn't be that many. Jesus established one church. His church not tens of thousands. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 16 minutes ago, blackbird said: No. "9 In like manner also, that women adorn themselves in modest apparel, with shamefacedness and sobriety; not with broided hair, or gold, or pearls, or costly array; {broided: or, plaited} 10 But (which becometh women professing godliness) with good works. 11 Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. 12 But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. 13 For Adam was first formed, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. 15 Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety. " 1 Timothy 2:9-15 KJV I thought so. So, does this apply to women teaching anything? Or just women as church leaders? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 30 minutes ago, Yakuda said: If they all believed the same fundamental doctrine there wouldn't be that many. Jesus established one church. His church not tens of thousands. I don't think you understand the concept of a church. There is only one true church. It is a church made up of all true believers from whatever denomination they are in. The denomination or building is only the place they meet together physically. But spiritually they are all part of the body of Christ. That's what the church is. I think you are stuck in the concept that the true church is the Roman Catholic church. There is nothing in the Bible about the RCC. There are independent churches, denominational churches, but that is different than the body of Christ. Just belonging to an earthly institution does not necessarily mean one is part of the true church or body of Christ. That is a spiritual unity. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 38 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: I thought so. So, does this apply to women teaching anything? Or just women as church leaders? The way I understand it is women can teach other women or girls, but it says a woman is not to teach or usurp authority over a man. Edited January 17 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 1 hour ago, blackbird said: The way I understand it is women can teach other women or girls, but it says a woman is not to teach or usurp authority over a man. So a woman professor who teaches future doctors (men and women) should only be able to teach women? ’Scuse my French, but that’s f#cked up. I had women instructors. They were great. Edited January 17 by TreeBeard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 11 minutes ago, TreeBeard said: So a woman professor who teaches future doctors (men and women) should only be able to teach women? ’Scuse my French, but that’s f#cked up. I had women instructors. They were great. We are talking about ministers in churches or theological teachers, not universities or doctors. Wash your mouth out with strong soap. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 26 minutes ago, blackbird said: We are talking about ministers in churches or theological teachers, not universities or doctors. Wash your mouth out with strong soap. I asked you if it pertained only to churches earlier… Where does it say in that passage that it would only pertain to religious teachings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 8 hours ago, TreeBeard said: I asked you if it pertained only to churches earlier… Where does it say in that passage that it would only pertain to religious teachings? I also may not have been correct in saying it only applies to churches if that means within the confines of a church building. That would not be correct. I examined the verses and it does not restrict it to a particular setting or location. Therefore I would conclude it is guidance for all of life. It says a woman is not to usurp authority or teach over a man. This definitely rules out women ministers in the church. It doesn't say in what setting or where this applies so it applies in every sphere, including the church. Would you agree the correct interpretation is it is general and not specific to any particular setting? This is teaching directed to Christian men and women in this chapter. This is direction for Christians. It is not talking about non-believers or non-Christians in society at large. This is not politics. Becoming a Christian and following Christ means a total change of life and attitude compared with the way this world thinks and operates. Matthew Henry, one of the great Bible commentators says a lot about the passage: 1 Timothy 2 Commentary - Matthew Henry Commentary on the Whole Bible (Complete) (biblestudytools.com) The first part of this chapter is directed to men. Men are to be men of prayer. I realize this whole chapter would present some difficulty for today's church society and many churches probably don't follow this very closely. This is not politics we are talking about. You cannot try to fit this in with political ideology of how men and women should live in the world. This is the ideal of how men and women are to live as believers in Christ. Since you raised this question by asking should I listen to godly women preach, this has drawn my attention to 1 Timothy ch2 and the important teaching in it. You have caused me to give it serious thought. It points out very important principles that Christians ought to pay more heed to in today's world. Food for thought. I know many Christians would have a lot of difficulty with this subject. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 I am not sure how a woman could become a wife and mother and also be a professional person such as a doctor or professional person. There is just not enough time in a day to do those things and still be a wife and mother looking after the family. This is a conundrum. Choosing a life path when a person is young, finishing school, would be very challenging in today's world, particularly for a Christian girl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 10 hours ago, blackbird said: I don't think you understand the concept of a church. There is only one true church. It is a church made up of all true believers from whatever denomination they are in. The denomination or building is only the place they meet together physically. But spiritually they are all part of the body of Christ. That's what the church is. I think you are stuck in the concept that the true church is the Roman Catholic church. There is nothing in the Bible about the RCC. There are independent churches, denominational churches, but that is different than the body of Christ. Just belonging to an earthly institution does not necessarily mean one is part of the true church or body of Christ. That is a spiritual unity. Yes one church established by Jesus on the rock of Peter. The Catholic church which stood united for 1500 years until protestantism. Now you people cant agree on much. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 42 minutes ago, Yakuda said: Yes one church established by Jesus on the rock of Peter. The Catholic church which stood united for 1500 years until protestantism. Now you people cant agree on much. The Biblical evidence is strongly against that interpretation. " On This Rock When Jesus says “on this rock I will build,” he uses a slightly different word: “You are petros, and on this petra I will build . . .” This creates space between Peter and the church’s rock. Jesus does not say “On you I will build my church” but “on this rock.” “This rock” is distinct from Peter, although connected to him. We soon discover the difference between the man and the rock. After Jesus grants Peter the keys to the kingdom (see below), Jesus explains how he must die in Jerusalem (Matt. 16:21). Peter rebukes Jesus, whom he has just called the Son of God, saying, “This shall never happen to you” (Matt. 16:22). In response Jesus chastises Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me” (Matt. 16:23). “Hindrance” translates skandalon, a cause of offense, a temptation, a trap. Notice the change. At first, Peter is the church’s rock. Now he is tempter, a foe. So Peter’s status depends on what he says. When Peter forbids the cross, he is a stumbling stone. When he proclaims Jesus as the Christ, he is a rock. Thus Peter is not the foundation of the church. Jesus in Matthew 21:42 will point to himself as the cornerstone, citing Isaiah 28:16 and Psalm 118:22. In 1 Corinthians 3:11, Paul identifies Jesus as the church’s sole foundation. Later, Paul writes that God built his “household . . . on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone” (Eph. 2:19–20). Finally, Revelation 21:14 pictures the new Jerusalem with “twelve foundations” not one, and they are the “twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Why Did Jesus Say, “On This Rock I Will Build My Church”? (Matthew 16) | Crossway Articles Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 2 minutes ago, blackbird said: The Biblical evidence is strongly against that interpretation. " On This Rock When Jesus says “on this rock I will build,” he uses a slightly different word: “You are petros, and on this petra I will build . . .” This creates space between Peter and the church’s rock. Jesus does not say “On you I will build my church” but “on this rock.” “This rock” is distinct from Peter, although connected to him. We soon discover the difference between the man and the rock. After Jesus grants Peter the keys to the kingdom (see below), Jesus explains how he must die in Jerusalem (Matt. 16:21). Peter rebukes Jesus, whom he has just called the Son of God, saying, “This shall never happen to you” (Matt. 16:22). In response Jesus chastises Peter: “Get behind me, Satan! You are a hindrance to me” (Matt. 16:23). “Hindrance” translates skandalon, a cause of offense, a temptation, a trap. Notice the change. At first, Peter is the church’s rock. Now he is tempter, a foe. So Peter’s status depends on what he says. When Peter forbids the cross, he is a stumbling stone. When he proclaims Jesus as the Christ, he is a rock. Thus Peter is not the foundation of the church. Jesus in Matthew 21:42 will point to himself as the cornerstone, citing Isaiah 28:16 and Psalm 118:22. In 1 Corinthians 3:11, Paul identifies Jesus as the church’s sole foundation. Later, Paul writes that God built his “household . . . on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Christ Jesus himself being the cornerstone” (Eph. 2:19–20). Finally, Revelation 21:14 pictures the new Jerusalem with “twelve foundations” not one, and they are the “twelve apostles of the Lamb.” Why Did Jesus Say, “On This Rock I Will Build My Church”? (Matthew 16) | Crossway Articles Citing non biblical sources as support for your interpretations is ironic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 Just now, Yakuda said: Citing non biblical sources as support for your interpretations is ironic. The non-biblical source just explains and gives you the Bible verses. When you made the claim "one church established by Jesus on the rock of Peter" were you quoting the Bible? No, that was just your own claim, a non-Biblical source. So you are ok with making non-Biblical statements but when I quote one which actually gives the Biblical verses supporting it, you dismiss it. Read Matthew 16:18. "18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. " The Greek word in the original manuscripts for Peter was "petros" which is a small rock. So it is saying That thou art Peter (petros, a small rock) and upon this rock (Petra, a larger rock), I will build my church... Jesus was not referring to Peter as the rock on which the church was to be built. This is proven by many other passages. Peter denied Jesus and Jesus rebuked him for it. Certainly nobody that Jesus would build the church on. Peter was an apostle to the Jews; Paul was an apostle to the Gentiles. " 42 Jesus saith unto them, Did ye never read in the scriptures, The stone which the builders rejected, the same is become the head of the corner: this is the Lord’s doing, and it is marvellous in our eyes?" Matthew 21:42 KJV Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 hour ago, Yakuda said: Yes one church established by Jesus on the rock of Peter. " 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; " Ephesians 2:19, 20 KJV Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church, not a sinful man like Peter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 10 minutes ago, blackbird said: " 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; " Ephesians 2:19, 20 KJV Jesus Christ is the foundation of the church, not a sinful man like Peter. That's not what Scripture says. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 (edited) 2 hours ago, blackbird said: Would you agree the correct interpretation is it is general and not specific to any particular setting? Yes, I agree it says that women should not teach men in any setting. 2 hours ago, blackbird said: This is direction for Christians. It is not talking about non-believers or non-Christians in society at large. No, the bible doesn’t just set out rules for Christians. When it says to believe in Him, or to not murder, those aren’t directed at just Christians. It doesn’t say that women shall not teach Christian men. It says they shall not teach any man. Edited January 17 by TreeBeard Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, Yakuda said: That's not what Scripture says. What do you mean? I just quoted it. What does this verse tell you? " 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; " Ephesians 2:19, 20 KJV Says nothing about the church being built on Peter. It tells you what it is built on. How do you interpret it? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 1 minute ago, TreeBeard said: No, the bible doesn’t just set out rules for Christians. When it says to believe in a him, or to not murder, those aren’t directed at just Christians. There are certain passage in the Bible that are applicable to all people as you said. But there are passages such as 1 Timothy ch2 which we were talking about, which are speaking specifically to Christians. Obviously that kind of message would not have any value to non-believers. Paul, in his letters to Timothy, was writing to churches, not society at large. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yakuda Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 4 minutes ago, blackbird said: What do you mean? I just quoted it. What does this verse tell you? " 19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; " Ephesians 2:19, 20 KJV Says nothing about the church being built on Peter. It tells you what it is built on. How do you interpret it? I didn't say that passage had anything to do with Peter. This is the problem with talking to protestants. They can only do what their programming has put into them. I'm not sure how much you know about engineering but I'm going to ask you this question anyway, the cornerstone of a building....does it sit in mid air? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TreeBeard Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 2 hours ago, blackbird said: I am not sure how a woman could become a wife and mother and also be a professional person such as a doctor or professional person. There is just not enough time in a day to do those things and still be a wife and mother looking after the family. This is a conundrum. Choosing a life path when a person is young, finishing school, would be very challenging in today's world, particularly for a Christian girl. I hope you’ll keep that in mind when it comes time to vote. If there’s a Christian woman running for the Conservatives, I hope you’ll give this passage thought and not vote for her, given she is not supposed to be in authority over men. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted January 17 Report Share Posted January 17 3 minutes ago, Yakuda said: I didn't say that passage had anything to do with Peter. This is the problem with talking to protestants. They can only do what their programming has put into them. I'm not sure how much you know about engineering but I'm going to ask you this question anyway, the cornerstone of a building....does it sit in mid air? No I don't think it sits in mid-air. Let me ask you what this verse tells you? "11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ." 1 Corinthians 3:11 KJV What would you say about this Old Testament prophecy by Isaiah? " 16 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, I lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believeth shall not make haste. " Isaiah 28:16 Who is this referring to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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