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1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

So you hear "Black History Month", and you feel shame?

Not a bit of it. But that's the clear point of this and similar exercises. This sort of thing is why you have people saying we shouldn't celebrate Canada Day, why statues are pulled down and all references to Canada's history are replete with whiny complaints about how bad our people were.

We bring in half a million immigrants a year. We expect them to want to integrate and be a part of the Canadian family, and then we go on endlessly about what a shit family it is, what a shit country it is, and how everything in our country was horrible. And yes, it does work, especially on younger people who are indoctrinated in this garbage by their teachers.

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8 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Not a bit of it. But that's the clear point of this and similar exercises.  

I disagree.  You can't say that that's the intention without evidence.  You're imbuing an emotional design on this that drifts into conspiracy theory IMO.  I doubt that you can find a meeting or document where an organizer expresses a goal of evoking guilty feelings.

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49 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I disagree.  You can't say that that's the intention without evidence.  You're imbuing an emotional design on this that drifts into conspiracy theory IMO.  I doubt that you can find a meeting or document where an organizer expresses a goal of evoking guilty feelings.

You’ve been out of the workplace a while, huh?   People are being told that they have “white privilege” and anyone who says it makes them feel judged on the basis of race or that it just makes them feel badly is told that they have “white fragility” and to lean into the discomfort.  I’ve watched this happen for two years.  This is the overwhelming messaging from “equity” leads across Canada.  We have been made to read books with very particular opinions: White Fragility, Me and White Supremacy, etc.  This wasn’t optional and it wasn’t explained why these books were chosen, why it was felt that they applied to our organization in particular, or their relationship to our industry.  This “equity work” has dominated our training for the past two years, yet no one can provide the data to show why this work is necessary, apart from vague references to police violence against blacks in the US.  Occasionally reference is made to convictions and discipline, but no context is brought to the discussions.  There’s an atmosphere in these sessions of tension and fear.  The people leading them clearly have far more opinions than facts to share, and it feels like they’re running organizations despite lack of credentials and experience.  Sure Mike, it’s a “conspiracy”.  Whatever, find a new tact.    

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I think these symbolic gestures are a waste of time in that they do not produce anything tangible. It seems more like an effort to make "whites" feel good in that they can visibly express their support, but need give little else. A form of purging. Look, I am anti-racist!

And you'd better get on the mainstream wagon. More rah rah rah.

I didn't hear a harumph from that guy. Trow the bum out!

....

But no, what they see as tangible is the National Arts gallery hosting a show in which only blacks can buy a ticket. Even mixed families may not attend.

Real Canadians don't like this.

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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I disagree.  You can't say that that's the intention without evidence.  You're imbuing an emotional design on this that drifts into conspiracy theory IMO.  I doubt that you can find a meeting or document where an organizer expresses a goal of evoking guilty feelings.

Uh, yeah, I doubt I can either.

The fact is we have a performative government whose every effort is directed at one thing; improving its election chances. It has held steady to that obsession since the day it was elected. It does nothing whatsoever without that being the key objective. All this identity war/culture war stuff dividing us is most definitely deliberate on their part. Every appeal, every virtue signal, every dressup performance towards this or that minority group is designed to portray Justin Trudeau as their white knight, ever ready to save them from the big, bad evil lurking outside the reach of his mighty sword of tolerence. 

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10 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

1. Uh, yeah, I doubt I can either.

2. The fact is we have a performative government whose every effort is directed at one thing; improving its election chances. 

1. Nothing in there about Black History Month

2. Ok, you don't like Trudeau.  Me neither, but he didn't invent Black History Month.

Moving on, we're scrounging to find relevant examples here.

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11 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

The fact is we have a performative government whose every effort is directed at one thing; improving its election chances.

Which is unfortunately the norm, rather than the exception.  

11 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

 All this identity war/culture war stuff dividing us is most definitely deliberate on their part. Every appeal, every virtue signal, every dressup performance towards this or that minority group is designed to portray Justin Trudeau as their white knight, ever ready to save them from the big, bad evil lurking outside the reach of his mighty sword of tolerence. 

and you can't see how deeply you've fallen for the culture-war narrative?  Do you see yourself as somehow above this?  

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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Nothing in there about Black History Month

2. Ok, you don't like Trudeau.  Me neither, but he didn't invent Black History Month.

Moving on, we're scrounging to find relevant examples here.

You're not a fool. The cite was a pretty clear example of how government officials don't write things down they don't want people to read. You know that. So I can only regard your response as deliberately disingenuous. And whether I like Trudeau or not is also irrelevant. If you've been following politics at all the last seven years you know very well his desperate efforts on behalf of getting votes from various ethnic/immigrant groups. One of the ways to do that is scare them - which is what this government does every election - and portray himself as their saviour. 

You appear to be so wholly committed to the multicultural thing that you regard any pushback against it as anathema.

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10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Which is unfortunately the norm, rather than the exception.  

That answer is like saying every politician is corrupt and dishonest so why pick on Donald Trump. 

There is bad and then there's awful.

10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

and you can't see how deeply you've fallen for the culture-war narrative?  Do you see yourself as somehow above this?  

 

The heart of conservatism - and I am a conservative - is a belief, support and pride for the traditions, values, culture and history of your people (which the Liberals know full well). Since Trudeau's culture war is designed to destroy all of that I can hardly not be on the other side of that war, now can I?  

I mean, this is the main point of his and the Liberals in their identity politics. They know that if they can associate conservatism - with its support for traditions and values - with racism/white superiority/islamophobia/homophobia it increases their electoral chances immeasurably. And it's working, too.

Note that Sir John A MacDonald has had his statues torn down everywhere but Sir Wilfred Laurier, who followed him, has largely escaped any condemnation despite his views and actions on natives being arguably worse than MacDonald. At least MacDonald gave some natives the vote (he had wanted all of them to be able to vote but the Liberals fought fiercely against this). Laurier swiftly removed it once in office.

Edited by I am Groot
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11 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

That answer is like saying every politician is corrupt and dishonest so why pick on Donald Trump. 

There is bad and then there's awful.

 

The heart of conservatism - and I am a conservative - is a belief, support and pride for the traditions, values, culture and history of your people (which the Liberals know full well). Since Trudeau's culture war is designed to destroy all of that I can hardly not be on the other side of that war, now can I?  

I mean, this is the main point of his and the Liberals in their identity politics. They know that if they can associate conservatism - with its support for traditions and values - with racism/white superiority/islamophobia/homophobia it increases their electoral chances immeasurably. And it's working, too.

Note that Sir John A MacDonald has had his statues torn down everywhere but Sir Wilfred Laurier, who followed him, has largely escaped any condemnation despite his views and actions on natives being arguably worse than MacDonald. At least MacDonald gave some natives the vote (he had wanted all of them to be able to vote but the Liberals fought fiercely against this). Laurier swiftly removed it once in office.

Yup exactly.  Hardner says he’s conservative but he sounds like my NDP aunt.

The Liberals used to care about national unity much more than they do now.  What they don’t seem to understand is that Trudeau, Freeland, and the other commissars won’t survive the revolution that they’re fueling.  The right AND the left will come for them because their overreach and war-mongering, both in Ukraine and in the culture wars, are pissing of a lot of people, including good middle of the road hard working people who resent standing accused of privilege and paying higher costs due to stupid overspending on identity politics programs and policies that are shipping energy production overseas.  

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48 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

  So I can only regard your response as deliberately disingenuous.  

No.  The bare facts of how governments operate doesn't prove that any individual conspiracy theory such as yours is true.

Example: Governments don't write stuff down, therefore bigfoot.

Anyway, look at what we're arguing about here. It's institutional epistemic functionality. Off topic, and not worth either of our times.

Edited by Michael Hardner
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8 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

No.  The bare facts of how governments operate doesn't prove that any individual conspiracy theory such as yours is true.

Example: Governments don't write stuff down, therefore bigfoot.

Anyway, look at what we're arguing about here. It's institutional epistemic functionality. Off topic, and not worth either of our times.

You’re out of touch.  

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1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

The heart of conservatism - and I am a conservative - is a belief, support and pride for the traditions, values, culture and history of your people (which the Liberals know full well). Since Trudeau's culture war is designed to destroy all of that I can hardly not be on the other side of that war, now can I?  

A couple of things:

1) Traditions and values aren't all equal.  Keeping traditions for the sake of tradition is an inherently worthless endeavor, and some of them are pointless or downright stupid.  

2) You give Trudeau far, far more credit than he deserves.  Not only was the culture war well underway long before he ever became Prime Minister, and is happening all over the Western world, to believe this has all been according to a grand plan/design requires a level of intelligence he doesn't appear to have. 

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

I mean, this is the main point of his and the Liberals in their identity politics. They know that if they can associate conservatism - with its support for traditions and values - with racism/white superiority/islamophobia/homophobia it increases their electoral chances immeasurably. And it's working, too.

You're a perfect example of these identity politics in action.  Whatever good/reasonable points you try to make, whether it's about statues being taken down, lax/cynical immigration policy or anything else, are obscured/reduced in the silly shit like you've posted here.  Complaining about Black History month "being shoved down your throat" is as petty as it is ironic, showing you're just as fragile as the folks you're complaining about.   

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3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

No.  The bare facts of how governments operate doesn't prove that any individual conspiracy theory such as yours is true.

Example: Governments don't write stuff down, therefore bigfoot.

Anyway, look at what we're arguing about here. It's institutional epistemic functionality. Off topic, and not worth either of our times.

That's what YOU'RE arguing about. What I'm arguing about discussing is the way the Liberals have used things like Black history month to normalize the division between different races/ethnicities in order to advance their poll numbers.

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2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

A couple of things:

1) Traditions and values aren't all equal.  Keeping traditions for the sake of tradition is an inherently worthless endeavor, and some of them are pointless or downright stupid.  

Perhaps. But conservatives don't tend to let go of them quickly or easily. And some of them are useful as touchstones to a common past, a common sense of identity, such as the Royals. That's when we HAD common touchstones and a common past, when we had some identity that made us more of a people. That Trudeau would proudly say we had nothing, no common identity, and weren't a nation ought to have precluded anyone voting for him again. I'd like to see him try to say that to Quebecers.

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

2) You give Trudeau far, far more credit than he deserves.  Not only was the culture war well underway long before he ever became Prime Minister, and is happening all over the Western world, to believe this has all been according to a grand plan/design requires a level of intelligence he doesn't appear to have. 

You mistake what I've written. I haven't laid the culture wars at his doorstep. They are indeed being fought all over the anglosphere - and mostly ignored in other countries. This is all American influence. But while Trudeau didn't bring the culture wars here he and the Liberals most definitely saw them as extremely useful to their electoral hopes. Black history month is not a new things under him. The effort being made to publicize it is.

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

You're a perfect example of these identity politics in action.  Whatever good/reasonable points you try to make, whether it's about statues being taken down, lax/cynical immigration policy or anything else, are obscured/reduced in the silly shit like you've posted here. 

Is anything I've written incorrect? What is it you're complaining about here? That I'm pushing back against the Left's attack on Canadian traditions and history, on western culture and values? Should I and others simply ignore it? Ignore the open discrimination? 

Bill Maher was saying something the other day to the effect that discriminating against a minority produces resentment and an inevitable backlash, but when you're openly discriminating against and denigrating the majority that backlash is going to be a lot more violent. I admit to being human. I admit to being influenced and to resentment over this bullshit. Why shouldn't I?

 

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2 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Is anything I've written incorrect? What is it you're complaining about here? That I'm pushing back against the Left's attack on Canadian traditions and history, on western culture and values? Should I and others simply ignore it? Ignore the open discrimination? 

That you're getting worked up and making a big deal about things that don't matter.  Black History Month is an absolute nothing-burger.  Nobody cares about it.  To complain about it being "shoved down your throat" demonstrates the same fragility and thin-skinned outrage that the other side demonstrates.  

As unreasonable and out-of-touch as the virtue-signalers can be, you're not offering a more reasonable alternative.  You're barking the same cry, just under a different banner.  

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20 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

That you're getting worked up and making a big deal about things that don't matter.

You are imputing an emotionalism to my statements which does not exist. I assume this is some sort of debating tactic?

20 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Black History Month is an absolute nothing-burger.  Nobody cares about it.  To complain about it being "shoved down your throat" demonstrates the same fragility and thin-skinned outrage that the other side demonstrates.  

I am using it as an example of the way the Left, and the government in particular works at dividing people. The emphasis the Trudeau government has put on 'celebrating' black history month seems to be driven not by their desire to celebrate whatever contributions Black people may have made to Canada but on dragging out before a receptive progressive media more examples of how Canada was a racist society and how poorly we treated black people.  It's another shaming exercise, paid for with our tax dollars.

BTW, I did a search on my name and the word 'throat' and found nothing. So I presume you're simply using this to once again suggest a degree of emotionalism - and thus a lower level of rationality - to me here. Another debating tactic on your part. Though not a very honest one.

20 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

As unreasonable and out-of-touch as the virtue-signalers can be, you're not offering a more reasonable alternative.  You're barking the same cry, just under a different banner.  

Am I? Have I suggested that discrimination is a good thing? Have I called for white people to be hired ahead of black people or native people? I have not, in fact, made any suggestion about ameliorating the situation, merely pointed out the situation itself. I would presume you would be aware that the most likely remedy I would propose is for governments, including the courts and both public and private corporations to treat everyone equally without regard to race or religion, to hire, promote or give opportunities to people without regard to their race.

Stop demonizing Canada and Canadians for things done everywhere in the world and largely done to a much nastier degree than here. Stop holding our ancestors up to modern standards of inclusiveness and tolerance when no one else in the world of that time is held to a similar standard.

I would also suggest that we pay careful heed to the social fabric and the need for a sense of shared identity and nationhood, slow down immigration, and work to integrate newcomers into the fabric of Canada, requiring them to not simply move from their own homeland to a large ethnic enclave here if they wanted to ever get citizenship. I think that given the demand for citizenship here vs the available supply we should make it much harder to obtain in order to bring in only the very best.

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Recognizing the past is a good way to avoid repeating it in future. Our treatment of Chinese and Jews have already been pointed  out. We also put Canadian born Japanese in camps and stole their property during WW2. Irish immigrants were also discriminated against. We have a long list of discrimination in this country. I think the rise of antisemitism has a lot to do with education, my grand kids say they learn little about the holocaust in school, the opposite of my generation who actually knew camp survivors or their kids. Some things about putting the past behind you are not positive.

Edited by Aristides
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16 hours ago, I am Groot said:

You are imputing an emotionalism to my statements which does not exist. I assume this is some sort of debating tactic?

I am using it as an example of the way the Left, and the government in particular works at dividing people. The emphasis the Trudeau government has put on 'celebrating' black history month seems to be driven not by their desire to celebrate whatever contributions Black people may have made to Canada but on dragging out before a receptive progressive media more examples of how Canada was a racist society and how poorly we treated black people.  It's another shaming exercise, paid for with our tax dollars.

BTW, I did a search on my name and the word 'throat' and found nothing. So I presume you're simply using this to once again suggest a degree of emotionalism - and thus a lower level of rationality - to me here. Another debating tactic on your part. Though not a very honest one.

Am I? Have I suggested that discrimination is a good thing? Have I called for white people to be hired ahead of black people or native people? I have not, in fact, made any suggestion about ameliorating the situation, merely pointed out the situation itself. I would presume you would be aware that the most likely remedy I would propose is for governments, including the courts and both public and private corporations to treat everyone equally without regard to race or religion, to hire, promote or give opportunities to people without regard to their race.

Stop demonizing Canada and Canadians for things done everywhere in the world and largely done to a much nastier degree than here. Stop holding our ancestors up to modern standards of inclusiveness and tolerance when no one else in the world of that time is held to a similar standard.

I would also suggest that we pay careful heed to the social fabric and the need for a sense of shared identity and nationhood, slow down immigration, and work to integrate newcomers into the fabric of Canada, requiring them to not simply move from their own homeland to a large ethnic enclave here if they wanted to ever get citizenship. I think that given the demand for citizenship here vs the available supply we should make it much harder to obtain in order to bring in only the very best.

We all know what you mean. If moonbox finds it unimportant he should stfu, and move along, instead of attacking you not the issue. As he and certain other leftist dullards around here often do...

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14 hours ago, Aristides said:

Recognizing the past is a good way to avoid repeating it in future. Our treatment of Chinese and Jews have already been pointed  out. We also put Canadian born Japanese in camps and stole their property during WW2. Irish immigrants were also discriminated against. We have a long list of discrimination in this country. I think the rise of antisemitism has a lot to do with education, my grand kids say they learn little about the holocaust in school, the opposite of my generation who actually knew camp survivors or their kids. Some things about putting the past behind you are not positive.

Some of those things you listed here have been "atoned for" formally by Canada. But Canada does have certain problems, natives being the main and most hurtful one. It is still an open wound.

Yet we have no Native History Month. 

Whereas the history of black oppression is relatively minor in Canada per se. This hints at what the problem is... virtue signalling as I mentioned, a feel good exercise for the woke left. I won't say it's the whites, or liberals. There are many who see it for what it is.

Because it is in vogue with the US media. The stupid woke seek to import US racism into our country.

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18 hours ago, I am Groot said:

You are imputing an emotionalism to my statements which does not exist. I assume this is some sort of debating tactic?

Well you wrote a hyperbole-laden rant about a petty and unremarkable topic, and you've spent the whole time projecting emotion on everyone else.  We hate capitalism, and western traditions and so on...?

18 hours ago, I am Groot said:

BTW, I did a search on my name and the word 'throat' and found nothing. So I presume you're simply using this to once again suggest a degree of emotionalism - and thus a lower level of rationality - to me here. Another debating tactic on your part. Though not a very honest one.

If I did, I didn't mean to(sorry).  It may have been another poster on another thread, or different words.  Regardless, I don't really achieve anything lying to the only person reading these responses, do I?

18 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Am I? Have I suggested that discrimination is a good thing? Have I called for white people to be hired ahead of black people or native people? I have not, in fact, made any suggestion about ameliorating the situation, merely pointed out the situation itself.

Nobody but the overtly bigoted is seriously calling for that, so this doesn't count for anything.  

18 hours ago, I am Groot said:

I would presume you would be aware that the most likely remedy I would propose is for governments, including the courts and both public and private corporations to treat everyone equally without regard to race or religion, to hire, promote or give opportunities to people without regard to their race.

That would be great, if you could actually prevent the implied/inherent biases and prejudices people hold, subconsciously or otherwise.  The last time few times I've tried to call CRA I was connected with someone who barely spoke English, one of whom hung up on me because they couldn't understand me and I asked to speak to someone else. I get it.  Giving jobs to ethnic minorities who can't aren't even qualified to do the work properly is wrong, but that doesn't mean any/all affirmative action is.  

18 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Stop demonizing Canada and Canadians for things done everywhere in the world and largely done to a much nastier degree than here. Stop holding our ancestors up to modern standards of inclusiveness and tolerance when no one else in the world of that time is held to a similar standard.

I thought you weren't being emotional.  Who's demonizing who?  Where did I hold our ancestors up to modern standards of inclusiveness?  

What you don't seem to realize is that I actually agree with a lot of the more practical points you're making.  I don't actually like the Liberals.  I never have.  I've voted Conservative for probably 90% of elections throughout my life.  Where you lose me is in your (seeming) inability to see any grey area and stick to serious topics.  I'm sorry, but complaining about Black History month is as petty as you can get.  

 

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22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Well you wrote a hyperbole-laden rant about a petty and unremarkable topic, and you've spent the whole time projecting emotion on everyone else.  We hate capitalism, and western traditions and so on...?

I have? Please show where I've suggested one damned thing about what you hate or don't hate.

22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

If I did, I didn't mean to(sorry).  It may have been another poster on another thread, or different words.  Regardless, I don't really achieve anything lying to the only person reading these responses, do I?

Nobody but the overtly bigoted is seriously calling for that, so this doesn't count for anything.  

I wasn't trying to get it to count for anything. It was a direct response to your claim that I'm "barking the same cry, just under a different banner."  

22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

That would be great, if you could actually prevent the implied/inherent biases and prejudices people hold, subconsciously or otherwise.

Implied? Subconscious? There is no way to impact subconscious biases I'm aware of. The 'training', ie, indoctrination so many have to suffer from has not been shown to have any positive impact. In fact, there is some suggestion it causes sufficient irritation that it has a negative impact.

More to the point, there's no evidence these 'subconscious/implied/inherent biases' cause any harm.

22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

The last time few times I've tried to call CRA I was connected with someone who barely spoke English, one of whom hung up on me because they couldn't understand me and I asked to speak to someone else. I get it.  Giving jobs to ethnic minorities who can't aren't even qualified to do the work properly is wrong, but that doesn't mean any/all affirmative action is.  

The case for affirmative action rests on the statistical inequalities between groups. But groups are different because of cultural values more than skin colour. And those cultural values causes different groups to prioritize different goals, including education and marriage. To be more specific, giving priority for hiring and promotion, as well as educational opportunities to Group A because it performs worse than Group B when the cause of that lesser performance is entirely of its own making seems blatantly unfair to Group B. The allegation is it's always do to skin colour or some sort of prejudice but there's precious little to support that vs group preferences and behaviour.

22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I thought you weren't being emotional.  Who's demonizing who?  Where did I hold our ancestors up to modern standards of inclusiveness?  

That part of my response was clearly directed at what to do about the present situation, not an accusation towards you personally.

22 hours ago, Moonbox said:

 Where you lose me is in your (seeming) inability to see any grey area and stick to serious topics.  I'm sorry, but complaining about Black History month is as petty as you can get.  

Already explained. You can indeed call it petty. You can say it's petty to complain about a black hairdresser going on the ten dollar bill instead of Sir John A MacDonald, or that it's petty to notice how many black actors I'm seeing on TV commercials and how many black newsreaders and reporters are suddenly popping up in a nation where blacks make up 3.5% of the population. You can call it petty that certain universities have created separate study areas and dorms for blacks "to feel safe" or caring about mandatory diversity education at government institutions or a requirement for people to sign an attestation regarding their belief in diversity and equity before being considered for employment at university. You can call it petty to complain about Trudeau's seemingly neverending apologies on behalf of Canada to this or that identity group and the neverending stream of programs and funding to said groups and the new censorship bill designed to 'protect' them from offensive and harmful words and the endless stream of other bits and pieces of the government's ongoing efforts at dividing Canadians.

But taken as a whole, resenting it all is not petty.

Edited by I am Groot
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1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

I have? Please show where I've suggested one damned thing about what you hate or don't hate.

?:

On 2/10/2023 at 5:20 PM, I am Groot said:

It's all a part and parcel of the building racism in this country brought about by people who despise Capitalism, Western cultural history and the freedoms which underpin democracy.

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