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Trudeau's vendetta is destroying health care, not anti vaxxers


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45 minutes ago, Aristides said:

In 2016, legislation was changed to increases would be 3% over the past year or the nominal growth of the economy whichever is greater. That means if increased health care costs for the provinces exceeds that amount, they are on the hook for the difference and the federal governments percentage of total costs will continue to decline. It is 22% right now. 

I agree with the feds that they would need assurances an increase in funding would go to an increase in total health care spending and not just replace some provincial spending to be used somewhere else. Instead of both sides playing politics, it's time they all sat down and figured how to do it. That is what they are being paid for.

You do understand that 22% is a percentage of the total, including any increases and inflation? it is a percentage, not a fixed amount of dollars.

If the cost is (for example) $10 Billion, the feds give 22% or $2.2 billion. If the cost is $20 billion then the percentage is $4.4 billion.

Lastly, the money has got to come from somewhere. As one person said "The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somewhere else". So, where do you take the money form?

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7 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

You do understand that 22% is a percentage of the total, including any increases and inflation? it is a percentage, not a fixed amount of dollars.

If the cost is (for example) $10 Billion, the feds give 22% or $2.2 billion. If the cost is $20 billion then the percentage is $4.4 billion.

Lastly, the money has got to come from somewhere. As one person said "The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somewhere else". So, where do you take the money form?

Nobody seem to mind when they spent almost 700 bil in the last 4 years, and 4 years ago we thought health care was one of the worlds best, turns out it's not even close. We use to pride ourselves on our health care, well it is broken like most things in Canada, sorry "justin" i know that is a line in the sand you won't cross... but it is far from fixed. 

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13 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Nobody seem to mind when they spent almost 700 bil in the last 4 years, and 4 years ago we thought health care was one of the worlds best, turns out it's not even close. We use to pride ourselves on our health care, well it is broken like most things in Canada, sorry "justin" i know that is a line in the sand you won't cross... but it is far from fixed. 

Not sure it is "broken". I think it is and was overworked, over strained and over used during and post pandemic.

The circumstances of the previous 2 years just made the people within the health system re-think their career choice and many left.

To say extra money will cure the problem may be misdirected. If there are no people to provide the service, the problem remains, regardless if there is money in the bank. It takes years to produce medical persons and the schools are all full (Ontario is providing free tuition).

I am not sure that the government caused that.

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6 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Not sure it is "broken". I think it is and was overworked, over strained and over used during and post pandemic.

The circumstances of the previous 2 years just made the people within the health system re-think their career choice and many left.

To say extra money will cure the problem may be misdirected. If there are no people to provide the service, the problem remains, regardless if there is money in the bank. It takes years to produce medical persons and the schools are all full (Ontario is providing free tuition).

I am not sure that the government caused that.

Not sure what to say, here in NB waiting times are over 30 hours in emergency, this year alone 4 people have died in waiting rooms. Now i'm just guessing but for me that would be a large red flag. 

Health care has been broken for many years, it is one of those departments that is easy to under fund, the shortage of pers has been underlined for dozens of years, and yet provincial nursing schools are limited to the amount of students they can produce each year..., and same as other medical professionals. thats a simple fix of hiring more teachers, creating more schools. 

Yes the last 3 years have been rough for health care, but actions speak volumes have we moved to solve any of these problems in the last 3 years. 

Working 80 hours a week, would make anyone reconsider their line of work, and all that extra pay they earn is another windfall for the government, and where do you enjoy that money, your entire life is working.  

They need better pay, less hours, all can be solved with money...

22 % gets you a say at the table, it does not get you the head of the table where you can make demands. And some of what Justin is demanding is not that unreasonable, he wants that funding spent on health care not some provincial project. One way to do that would be for the feds to step up and build a hospital, or update hospitals, or pay for and build new medical schools, open a national medical equipment center, where these much needed medical machines can be made available on a lend lease , or discounted. shit throw a bunch of these hospital administrative and senior medical staff together in a room  get them to hammer out a plan. 

What we have right now is not working, politics is not the answer,  the answer has to come from the medical side of the house. 

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7 hours ago, Army Guy said:

What we have right now is not working, politics is not the answer,  the answer has to come from the medical side of the house. 

Make sense since the medical side was telling us it was falling apart decades ago. Then they said it would get worse about a decade ago.  Then 4 or 5 years ago they said we would be in a crisis.

I'm guessing now that most of us finally get it the politicians will only be another decade or so before they catch up. 

But whatever the answer is you can be sure politics will be required...lots and lots of it.

It's how we roll...it's what we are.

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15 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Not sure it is "broken". I think it is and was overworked, over strained and over used during and post pandemic.

The circumstances of the previous 2 years just made the people within the health system re-think their career choice and many left.

To say extra money will cure the problem may be misdirected. If there are no people to provide the service, the problem remains, regardless if there is money in the bank. It takes years to produce medical persons and the schools are all full (Ontario is providing free tuition).

I am not sure that the government caused that.

The so called pandemic really showed how weak the system is. Virtually no ability to handle any sort of stress to the system no matter how small. Working at capacity even pre pandemic

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17 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Not sure what to say, here in NB waiting times are over 30 hours in emergency, this year alone 4 people have died in waiting rooms. Now i'm just guessing but for me that would be a large red flag. 

Health care has been broken for many years, it is one of those departments that is easy to under fund, the shortage of pers has been underlined for dozens of years, and yet provincial nursing schools are limited to the amount of students they can produce each year..., and same as other medical professionals. thats a simple fix of hiring more teachers, creating more schools. 

Yes the last 3 years have been rough for health care, but actions speak volumes have we moved to solve any of these problems in the last 3 years. 

Working 80 hours a week, would make anyone reconsider their line of work, and all that extra pay they earn is another windfall for the government, and where do you enjoy that money, your entire life is working.  

They need better pay, less hours, all can be solved with money...

22 % gets you a say at the table, it does not get you the head of the table where you can make demands. And some of what Justin is demanding is not that unreasonable, he wants that funding spent on health care not some provincial project. One way to do that would be for the feds to step up and build a hospital, or update hospitals, or pay for and build new medical schools, open a national medical equipment center, where these much needed medical machines can be made available on a lend lease , or discounted. shit throw a bunch of these hospital administrative and senior medical staff together in a room  get them to hammer out a plan. 

What we have right now is not working, politics is not the answer,  the answer has to come from the medical side of the house. 

The entire country is having waiting time issues in emergency rooms. The pandemic made many just quit because of the hours they had to work. That created a shortage and it has not and will not be resolved for a number of years (as a result of the training needed). ( I get infusion monthly and there are a lot of nurses working in that clinic. I have spoken to a lot of them and the prime reason they work there now is because it is 9 to 5. They did not want to work nights) Oh and, waiting times to get seen and to get admitted are very different things. (I, unfortunately, have this past week had tragedy strike and a good friend passed away but, the service in emergency had in the hospital was beyond reproach)

Oh and over crowding is not just a Canadian problem, the US has the same and they have a hundred times more hospitals than us  https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/health/hospitals-full-not-just-covid/index.html

Foreign medical professionals getting certification in Canada (provincial jurisdiction) is a problem but, the medical associations should be helping much more than they are to get these required certifications through.

As for the 22% issue, once again, it is a percentage and 22% this year is more cash than 22% last year.

I am not, by any way, lessening the issue, just putting calm logic and thought behind my comments. Prior to the pandemic, things seemed to be fine but since the pandemic, the crisis, and now with long covid, the flu epidemic, RSV  all over North America, the hospitals are once again under intense strain but with fewer staff..

You are right, something is not working but, I believe the cause is lack of staff and that is not a quick fix, regardless of the money thrown at it.  It takes years to train.

 

Edited by ExFlyer
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13 hours ago, eyeball said:

Make sense since the medical side was telling us it was falling apart decades ago. Then they said it would get worse about a decade ago.  Then 4 or 5 years ago they said we would be in a crisis.

I'm guessing now that most of us finally get it the politicians will only be another decade or so before they catch up. 

But whatever the answer is you can be sure politics will be required...lots and lots of it.

It's how we roll...it's what we are.

Time to find a better way, or find someone out of our population that is truly a leader, with common sense and a sense or urgency to listen then act. It seems right now our politicians do not make up our best and brightest people, nor do they attract them. 

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4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

1...The entire country is having waiting time issues in emergency rooms. The pandemic made many just quit because of the hours they had to work. That created a shortage and it has not and will not be resolved for a number of years (as a result of the training needed). ( I get infusion monthly and there are a lot of nurses working in that clinic. I have spoken to a lot of them and the prime reason they work there now is because it is 9 to 5. They did not want to work nights) Oh and, waiting times to get seen and to get admitted are very different things. (I, unfortunately, have this past week had tragedy strike and a good friend passed away but, the service in emergency had in the hospital was beyond reproach)

2....Oh and over crowding is not just a Canadian problem, the US has the same and they have a hundred times more hospitals than us  https://www.cnn.com/2022/12/08/health/hospitals-full-not-just-covid/index.html

Foreign medical professionals getting certification in Canada (provincial jurisdiction) is a problem but, the medical associations should be helping much more than they are to get these required certifications through.

3....As for the 22% issue, once again, it is a percentage and 22% this year is more cash than 22% last year.

I am not, by any way, lessening the issue, just putting calm logic and thought behind my comments. Prior to the pandemic, things seemed to be fine but since the pandemic, the crisis, and now with long covid, the flu epidemic, RSV  all over North America, the hospitals are once again under intense strain but with fewer staff..

5...You are right, something is not working but, I believe the cause is lack of staff and that is not a quick fix, regardless of the money thrown at it.  It takes years to train.

 

1... I don't think anyone is complain about the quality of service, but waiting 30 hours plus just to see a doctor is way to long and a red flag, Nobody wants to work nights, but what if you offer more to those working nights or late shifts , like a shorten work week , more wages, I'm no expert but I'm sure someone from the medical profession can hammer this out.

Sorry to hear about your friend, there is nothing i can say or do that will dull the pain of loosing someone close, maybe a good glass of rum, cheers to the fallen may they never be forgotten. 

2...Perhaps not, but new investments into new hospitals or medical education centers can't hurt, the US has teaching hospitals which receive Federal funding, they provide internship for many students, just an example of what could be done with more money. I'm sure there are a million ways to improve our system. 

3... Perhaps it is time to look at the 22 % number, instead of offering all these fancy new programs like day dare, dental care, and atleast fix the original problem with health care. 

4.... The pandemic thing has raised a huge red flag in regards to our health care, it has exposed many if not all our weaknesses , like staffing, bed spaces, equipment, drugs, and long term care also a health care issue. and if we do not learn from these lessons then we are bound to repeat them. and maybe the cost of being so cheap, or lazy is going to be lives. 

5...it took us years to get here,  so yes this is a long term fix issue.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Time to find a better way, or find someone out of our population that is truly a leader, with common sense and a sense or urgency to listen then act. It seems right now our politicians do not make up our best and brightest people, nor do they attract them. 

The best outcomes during the pandemic were in places where politicians gave real weight to what experts were telling us we needed to do.  That's good enough for me to keep exploring down that path.

How about a constitutional technocracy for a change? I'm not interested in being led anywhere. I'd rather give more principled followers a chance to see what they can do. People, humanitarians above all else, who can follow science and reason to better conclusions and policies.

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On 12/17/2022 at 8:20 AM, ExFlyer said:

You do understand that 22% is a percentage of the total, including any increases and inflation? it is a percentage, not a fixed amount of dollars.

If the cost is (for example) $10 Billion, the feds give 22% or $2.2 billion. If the cost is $20 billion then the percentage is $4.4 billion.

Lastly, the money has got to come from somewhere. As one person said "The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somewhere else". So, where do you take the money form?

  • Quote

    Since 2017-18, total CHT funding has been legislated to grow in line with a three-year moving average of nominal gross domestic product (GDP), with total funding guaranteed to increase by at least 3 per cent per year.

    Ref: Government of Canada

  • Which means if provincial health care costs exceed the above parameters, the provinces are on the hook for the difference. Therefore, 22% is not fixed. What's going on is simply political posturing by both parties. There will be a new agreement.

Edited by Aristides
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13 hours ago, Aristides said:
  • Ref: Government of Canada

  • Which means if provincial health care costs exceed the above parameters, the provinces are on the hook for the difference. Therefore, 22% is not fixed. What's going on is simply political posturing by both parties. There will be a new agreement.

Quote form where??

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27 minutes ago, Aristides said:

You forgot to quote the rest, which is what the government is asking the Provinces to do before they would consider an increase :

  • CHT funds have at times been withheld for violations of the CHA in relation to extra billing and user charges. Health Canada produces an Annual Report on the extent to which provincial and territorial health care insurance plans have satisfied the criteria and the conditions for payment under the Act. 
  • In Budget 2018, the government announced legislative amendments to allow CHT deductions to be reimbursed when provinces and territories have taken the steps necessary to eliminate extra-billing and user charges in the delivery of public health care. This was done to encourage provinces and territories to take corrective action to align their public health care systems with the principles of the CHA, as well as to recognize those that have addressed issues of non-compliance." 
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2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

You forgot to quote the rest, which is what the government is asking the Provinces to do before they would consider an increase :

  • CHT funds have at times been withheld for violations of the CHA in relation to extra billing and user charges. Health Canada produces an Annual Report on the extent to which provincial and territorial health care insurance plans have satisfied the criteria and the conditions for payment under the Act. 
  • In Budget 2018, the government announced legislative amendments to allow CHT deductions to be reimbursed when provinces and territories have taken the steps necessary to eliminate extra-billing and user charges in the delivery of public health care. This was done to encourage provinces and territories to take corrective action to align their public health care systems with the principles of the CHA, as well as to recognize those that have addressed issues of non-compliance." 

How can provinces do that if they don't have the funding to include those services in the public system? It's a chicken or egg scenario and they should be working to resolve it. 

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6 minutes ago, Aristides said:

How can provinces do that if they don't have the funding to include those services in the public system? It's a chicken or egg scenario and they should be working to resolve it. 

"when provinces and territories have taken the steps necessary to eliminate extra-billing and user charges in the delivery of public health care."

No chicken, no egg. Do as is asked and you shall be rewarded.

"The premiers are misleading Canadians about the degree of Ottawa’s underfunding. Even worse, their demands for a strings-free spending spree, if successful, could end up slowing down desperately needed reform of Canada’s overly expensive, underperforming health care system."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-provinces-want-a-blank-cheque-for-health-care-ottawa-should-say-no/

Edited by ExFlyer
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23 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

"when provinces and territories have taken the steps necessary to eliminate extra-billing and user charges in the delivery of public health care."

No chicken, no egg. Do as is asked and you shall be rewarded.

"The premiers are misleading Canadians about the degree of Ottawa’s underfunding. Even worse, their demands for a strings-free spending spree, if successful, could end up slowing down desperately needed reform of Canada’s overly expensive, underperforming health care system."

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/editorials/article-provinces-want-a-blank-cheque-for-health-care-ottawa-should-say-no/

My province doesn't allow extra billing or user surcharges for basic health care. As a matter of fact they just took one clinic to court for exactly that. What happens if the court sides with the clinic, what does a province do about that? 

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1 hour ago, Aristides said:

My province doesn't allow extra billing or user surcharges for basic health care. As a matter of fact they just took one clinic to court for exactly that. What happens if the court sides with the clinic, what does a province do about that? 

Then get the other provinces to fall in line LOL

The feds make a deal with all provinces... not individual ones.

Can you imagine the shit storm if one gets one thing and another gets something different??? (Quebec notwithstanding) LOL

Anyway, what it boils down to is how each province spends the 22%. Some are more efficient.

Edited by ExFlyer
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19 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Then get the other provinces to fall in line LOL

The feds make a deal with all provinces... not individual ones.

Can you imagine the shit storm if one gets one thing and another gets something different??? (Quebec notwithstanding) LOL

Anyway, what it boils down to is how each province spends the 22%. Some are more efficient.

What other provinces are allowing extra billing or user surcharges?  I'm not taking sides here, both have some valid points. 

22% of what? If the cost of providing medical services exceed the criteria through no fault of a province, ageing demographic, higher drug costs, a newer greater variety of more expensive treatments, more expensive infrastructure and equipment, greater labour and training costs in order to acquire and keep doctors and nurses when there is a chronic shortage etc, the province is on the hook for the difference and it's share will gradually increase compared to the federal government. Health care is already the biggest piece of provincial spending by far. 

Edited by Aristides
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41 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What other provinces are allowing extra billing or user surcharges?  I'm not taking sides here, both have some valid points. 

22% of what? If the cost of providing medical services exceed the criteria through no fault of a province, ageing demographic, higher drug costs, a newer greater variety of more expensive treatments, more expensive infrastructure and equipment, greater labour and training costs in order to acquire and keep doctors and nurses when there is a chronic shortage etc, the province is on the hook for the difference and it's share will gradually increase compared to the federal government. Health care is already the biggest piece of provincial spending by far. 

"In 2020-21, the Canada Health Transfer share was $45.9 billion, or 22 per cent of health spending. "

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8 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

"In 2020-21, the Canada Health Transfer share was $45.9 billion, or 22 per cent of health spending. "

Yes and if costs go up more than the increase in GDP or 3% the provinces share will go up and the feds will be less than 22%. Right now, GDP is forecast to grow at less than 1% in 2023 and inflation has been running at around 7% so if the increase in transfers is only 3%, the provinces will be on the hook for the difference.

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9 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Yes and if costs go up more than the increase in GDP or 3% the provinces share will go up and the feds will be less than 22%. Right now, GDP is forecast to grow at less than 1% in 2023 and inflation has been running at around 7% so if the increase in transfers is only 3%, the provinces will be on the hook for the difference.

Look, make up what you want. I provided the answer to your question.  "In 2020-21, the Canada Health Transfer share was $45.9 billion, or 22 per cent of health spending. "

The feds said they can increase it but under conditions and now they feds wait for the Provinces.

You can what if it to death.

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