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A few words from a retiring General


Army Guy

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9 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Liberal incompetence when it comes to understanding the military is nothing new, one only has to think back to unification.

Actually, it is Canadian government, regardless of party, incompetence towards the Military. Our Military has not been appreciated since the Korean conflict.

Only when our soldiers started dying in Afghanistan, we started to think about the Military but, unfortunately, that was because they were dying.

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21 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Actually, it is Canadian government, regardless of party, incompetence towards the Military. Our Military has not been appreciated since the Korean conflict.

Only when our soldiers started dying in Afghanistan, we started to think about the Military but, unfortunately, that was because they were dying.

Neither has a sterling record but it was the Liberals who were tone deaf enough force unification. 

Edited by Aristides
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7 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Neither has a sterling record but it was the Liberals who were tone deaf enough force unification. 

I joined just as unification happened.

Unification was not a new idea, just enacted by Hellyer. 

Primarily for budget reasons and that the Canadian military had 3 separate administrations for very few Military personnel. Amalgamating the support services made sense. What did not make sense was turning everyone green.

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22 hours ago, eyeball said:

So the military and the right-wing go together like peas and carrots? I knew it!

That's the best reason for starving the military there is.

Yeah, until you need them. Same for the cops. Of course, once you need them it's a little late to try and rebuild.

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4 hours ago, I am Groot said:

Yeah, until you need them.

We don't if it means committing the trillions +++ dollars.

Quote

Same for the cops. Of course, once you need them it's a little late to try and rebuild.

I wouldn't get rid of cops, I'd partner a bunch up however with mental health workers when patrolling the streets or responding to a disturbance or domestic dispute.

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On 11/25/2022 at 5:14 PM, I am Groot said:

It's an exaggeration, but he's not wrong in that the people most likely to care about such things, i.e., sensitive, progressive, liberal types, are the least likely to want anything to do with the military.

It silly hyperbole, and there's no discussion to be had around his bogeyman exaggerated conjurations.  He's literally asking whether we want farm-raised, beef-fed huntin' and hockey lovin' manly men in our military, vs prancing drama queens - as if this is the binary choice we're faced with.  

On 11/25/2022 at 5:14 PM, I am Groot said:

The ones who would be interested are Hillary Clinton's deplorables: people with filthy mouths, who tell racist, sexist jokes, and think everyone else is a 'p*ssy'. 

and yet we can't find recruits, and only around 10% of the makeup of the CF is composed of minorities despite them  representing something like 40% of the population, or women who make up 50% of the population but only 15% of the forces.  Diversity in the forces is necessary to reflect our constantly changing demographics.  I can just imagine how eager all of the minorities, women and young people are going to be to join who read about or saw Michel Maisonneuve natter his culture war BS.  Fortunately hardly anyone is actually talking about it or cares.  As Army Guy said, this speech will be forgotten for what it was in short order - completely irrelevant.  

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8 hours ago, eyeball said:

We don't if it means committing the trillions +++ dollars.

I wouldn't get rid of cops, I'd partner a bunch up however with mental health workers when patrolling the streets or responding to a disturbance or domestic dispute.

 

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It silly hyperbole, and there's no discussion to be had around his bogeyman exaggerated conjurations.  He's literally asking whether we want farm-raised, beef-fed huntin' and hockey lovin' manly men in our military, vs prancing drama queens - as if this is the binary choice we're faced with.  

and yet we can't find recruits, and only around 10% of the makeup of the CF is composed of minorities despite them  representing something like 40% of the population, or women who make up 50% of the population but only 15% of the forces.  Diversity in the forces is necessary to reflect our constantly changing demographics.  I can just imagine how eager all of the minorities, women and young people are going to be to join who read about or saw Michel Maisonneuve natter his culture war BS.  Fortunately hardly anyone is actually talking about it or cares.  As Army Guy said, this speech will be forgotten for what it was in short order - completely irrelevant.  

Can you two please keep your identity politics nonsense away from our military?  You really don’t know why the military isn’t as diverse as you want it to be.  You immediately jump to the conclusion that it must be because the military is racist instead of considering that maybe recent immigrants aren’t interested in joining a military for a slew of reasons.  You don’t consider that maybe if someone has fled a war torn country like Ukraine or Syria, maybe he, she or they don’t want to potentially end up fighting in a war.  The general was bang on in explaining why we’re in this mess and it has a lot to do with your mentality.

Eyeball would rather rely on other countries to defend Canada, even if it puts Canadian independence at risk.  Moonbox wants military to be a glorified equity hiring program where skill isn’t as important as whether someone is a member of a government-designated victim group targeted for government benefits and privileges.

Edited by Zeitgeist
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8 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It silly hyperbole, and there's no discussion to be had around his bogeyman exaggerated conjurations.  He's literally asking whether we want farm-raised, beef-fed huntin' and hockey lovin' manly men in our military, vs prancing drama queens - as if this is the binary choice we're faced with.  

and yet we can't find recruits, and only around 10% of the makeup of the CF is composed of minorities despite them  representing something like 40% of the population, or women who make up 50% of the population but only 15% of the forces.  Diversity in the forces is necessary to reflect our constantly changing demographics.  I can just imagine how eager all of the minorities, women and young people are going to be to join who read about or saw Michel Maisonneuve natter his culture war BS.  Fortunately hardly anyone is actually talking about it or cares.  As Army Guy said, this speech will be forgotten for what it was in short order - completely irrelevant.  

You cannot force anyone to join the military, just as you cannot force anyone to become a carpenter.

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10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It silly hyperbole, and there's no discussion to be had around his bogeyman exaggerated conjurations.  He's literally asking whether we want farm-raised, beef-fed huntin' and hockey lovin' manly men in our military, vs prancing drama queens - as if this is the binary choice we're faced with.  

What do you believe the typical applicant to the military is like? Do you think he/she is more likely to be on the left side of the political fence or the right? Someone who works with their hands, or someone who sits behind a computer? Blue collar or white collar?

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

and yet we can't find recruits, and only around 10% of the makeup of the CF is composed of minorities despite them  representing something like 40% of the population,

Visible minorities make up 28% of the population and almost all of them are immigrants who come from countries where soldiers are neither admired nor trusted- nor paid very well. They didn't come all the way here to be soldiers or to have their kids join the army or navy either.

And the fact almost everyone knows the military is ignored, neglected and short-changed by the government, with castoff forty year old gear almost certainly plays a major roll in why people aren't joining up. And why people are leaving. A lot of young men joined the military to experience overseas missions which we no longer have because we can't afford them. 

 

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

or women who make up 50% of the population but only 15% of the forces.

This surprises you? Women have never had much interest in soldiering. Women have particular interests and men do too. This is why women rarely elect to take computer engineering or mathematics in school, opting for teaching, sociology and medicine instead.

 

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Diversity in the forces is necessary to reflect our constantly changing demographics.

No, it really isn't. Nor has the military ever reflected our demographics. Nor is there any advantage I can see to it doing so.

10 hours ago, Moonbox said:

 I can just imagine how eager all of the minorities, women and young people are going to be to join who read about or saw Michel Maisonneuve natter his culture war BS. 

Donald Trump.

 

Edited by I am Groot
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Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Israel has the right idea but our public would never go for it.  

Doesn't matter. There's no equipment for the m to use anyway. Sweden greatly increased its military spending and reinstated conscription in light of what they saw as a growing threat from Russia about five years or so ago. Despite being a quarter of our size hey have more tanks, more fighters, more submarines and more ships than we do.

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21 minutes ago, I am Groot said:

Of course you can. Evil countries like uh, Sweden do it all the time.

You cannot force anyone to do anything in Canada, let alone going into the Military. :)

8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Israel has the right idea but our public would never go for it.  

"There are around 85 countries worldwide that have some form of obligatory military training including Turkey, Cyprus, Israel, Syria, Brazil and the Koreas. Military service is compulsory in South Korea.    https://www.forces.net/world/which-countries-still-have-conscription

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10 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

You cannot force anyone to do anything in Canada, let alone going into the Military. :)

 there's nothing in the constitution which precludes conscription during state of emergency

just as in the pandemic, the government could invoke Section 1 of the constitution

in order to draft citizens into the military

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2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

 there's nothing in the constitution which precludes conscription during state of emergency

just as in the pandemic, the government could invoke Section 1 of the constitution

in order to draft citizens into the military

And how does Section 1 give government the ability to conscript??

Hint: it does not.

https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/check/art1.html

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5 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

 

Can you two please keep your identity politics nonsense away from our military?  You really don’t know why the military isn’t as diverse as you want it to be.  You immediately jump to the conclusion that it must be because the military is racist instead of considering that maybe recent immigrants aren’t interested in joining a military for a slew of reasons.  You don’t consider that maybe if someone has fled a war torn country like Ukraine or Syria, maybe he, she or they don’t want to potentially end up fighting in a war.  The general was bang on in explaining why we’re in this mess and it has a lot to do with your mentality.

Eyeball would rather rely on other countries to defend Canada, even if it puts Canadian independence at risk.  Moonbox wants military to be a glorified equity hiring program where skill isn’t as important as whether someone is a member of a government-designated victim group targeted for government benefits and privileges.

this civilianization of the military is particularly entrenched in Canada

but it is actually prevalent throughout the Western World now

yet this is a rather a geopolitical result

 70 years of Pax Americana

has induced the concept that the military is a civil service which doesn't actually fight wars anymore

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3 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

And how does Section 1 give government the ability to conscript??

"subject to reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

that's the catch all, 

 it is justified to conscript to defend the free & democratic society in times of war and/or emergency

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38 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Israel has the right idea but our public would never go for it.  

that's not the historical role of the Canadian military

bear in mind that Canada has only ever fought one war in the specific defence of Canada

the Northwest Rebellion of 1885

against Louis Riel, the Father of Manitoba

see that the primary role of the Canadian Forces is to defend the government from an armed insurrection

hence why Canada has fewer than 100 tanks

the main arm of decision in Canada is the infantry, in support of the RCMP

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21 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

"subject to reasonable limits prescribed by law as can be demonstrably justified in a free and democratic society."

that's the catch all, 

 it is justified to conscript to defend the free & democratic society in times of war and/or emergency

Your opinion, not fact or law.

Clearly did not read https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/check/art1.html

 

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12 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Your opinion, not fact or law.

Clearly did not read https://www.justice.gc.ca/eng/csj-sjc/rfc-dlc/ccrf-ccdl/check/art1.html

 

in time of war or national emergency the government simply invokes the Emergencies Act

the legal basis of the Emergencies Act is the reasonable limits clause within Section 1

the Emergencies Act not only empowers the government to conscript civilians into the military

it also grants the authority to conscript civilians into non military national service

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1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

Visible minorities make up 28% of the population and almost all of them are immigrants who come from countries where soldiers are neither admired nor trusted- nor paid very well. They didn't come all the way here to be soldiers or to have their kids join the army or navy either.

I'm glad we have you to speak for them.  ?

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

And why people are leaving. A lot of young men joined the military to experience overseas missions which we no longer have because we can't afford them. 

Well we just spent 13 years in Afghanistan...

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

This surprises you? Women have never had much interest in soldiering. Women have particular interests and men do too. This is why women rarely elect to take computer engineering or mathematics in school, opting for teaching, sociology and medicine instead.

No question on the historical side of things, but then this isn't an ideal dynamic.  In regards to STEM programs, we're not utilizing 50% of our best and brightest people in the fields where the best and brightest are required.  

1 hour ago, I am Groot said:

No, it really isn't. Nor has the military ever reflected our demographics. Nor is there any advantage I can see to it doing so.

Uh, because the recruiting pool is shifting away from the farm-raised beef-fed "ubermen" that apparently are all the army cares about.  

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1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

I'm glad we have you to speak for them.  ?

Did I take your job?

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

Well we just spent 13 years in Afghanistan...

Nine years ago. We didn't have trouble with recruitment back then for some reason.

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

No question on the historical side of things, but then this isn't an ideal dynamic.

Yes, it actually is. Women are not physically suited for most combat roles.

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

  In regards to STEM programs, we're not utilizing 50% of our best and brightest people in the fields where the best and brightest are required.  

Does it bother you that most young women prefer to be doctors and teachers than scientists or engineers? Would you force them into a role they don't want?

1 minute ago, Moonbox said:

Uh, because the recruiting pool is shifting away from the farm-raised beef-fed "ubermen" that apparently are all the army cares about.  

On the contrary, the military's recruitment efforts have been focused on visible minorities and women since Trudeau came to power. Gee, I wonder if that isn't another factor in the recruitment crisis they're experiencing. The recruitment efforts of police forces have been similarly focused for many years. And most police forces are shorthanded now, ,unable to recruit enough people.

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50 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

in time of war or national emergency the government simply invokes the Emergencies Act

the legal basis of the Emergencies Act is the reasonable limits clause within Section 1

the Emergencies Act not only empowers the government to conscript civilians into the military

it also grants the authority to conscript civilians into non military national service

Dude, you need to get informed.

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