A few words from a retiring General

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

I bow to your superior intellect when it comes to all military matters, it that what you want to here, I've proven my case hundreds of times to you, but you just like to read your own posts.  I'm moving i hope you can do the same. 

The only thing you've proven here is how strongly opinionated you can be about something without knowing a damn thing about it.  I shouldn't be the one quoting military regs to the retired army guy, but you made up your mind on this topic before reading anything whatsoever about it, and then fed us a line of emotional bullshit easily proven wrong just by lining your own quote up against one from the new regulations. 

I'd want out of this thread after that too.  ?

42 minutes ago, PIK said:

So a call comes in for a quick deployment and you need to change your hair colour first.  Come on, thats just silly. lol

Not as silly as this thought.  I suppose in your mind the soldiers are just sitting inside a chopper all day waiting to deploy on a second's notice.  In reality, they're usually allowed enough time to put their boots and gear on and, if absolutely necessary, don a hat or a headscarf...for all of those neon-haired special forces on standby for rapid deployment...? 

 

[ExFlyer]

On 11/27/2022 at 5:49 PM, Army Guy said:

Your pissed becasue ...

We can't find recruits because ......Not to mention they are not being paid to the same degree as those counter parts in the civilian world. 

Minorites come from countries that the military was used to oppress them, WTF would they be interested in joining our forces? they have other interests in life just as women do, they want employment in other professions. You cannot force them into joining to keep the flow charts balanced, maybe we should be forcing women into doing other jobs like garbagemen, where 90 % are represented by men, construction workers, farmers, fishermen, most manual labor jobs... NOPE we are fixated on the Military and nothing else matters right now it is a stupid, no absolutely stupid idea. it take s everything away from merit becasue you earned it, to give me the job i'm the right color, sex, race, creed, etc same as advancement or promotion thats why people are not joining, the organization is rif with leftist political wing nuts that want to preserve their jobs rather than the organization.  

Diversity is not working; you and all the experts are blowing hot wind out your asses. Do i believe the forces should be open to everyone certainly. everyone deserves a fair chance to serve this nation provided you can meet its standards, not becasue of your sex or color. .  ...

 

I have to disagree with you about pay. The military pay is very good in comparison to civil standards. Yes, there was at time when the pay was not as good but that has changed a lot. A private, off the street regardless of occupation makes $38K per year and within 3 years is up to $55K and within 5 years is up to $70K. Pretty good for a clerk or stores person and other trades within the military.

Forced diversity is not working.  It never will.

[Moonbox]

7 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I have to disagree with you about pay. The military pay is very good in comparison to civil standards.

It's not.  I'm going to have to go with Army Guy on this.  Considering the lifestyle sacrifices you make, the danger in which you put yourself, and the training requirements and standards that are expected of you, our servicemen and women are being underappreciated compared to their civilian counterparts.  

7 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Forced diversity is not working.  It never will.

Ignoring diversity and not at least encouraging it doesn't work either.  Despite what everyone seems to portray, there is a huge amount of nuance and gray area we can aim for.  

This was a very interesting and timely read:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-canada-military-shortage-crisis/

Written by a navy commander who retired back in 2019.  Here are some of his observations:

1) Support for our troops is certainly necessary, but it doesn’t deal with the fundamental problem: The Canadian Armed Forces no longer reflect the principles and values of the Canadian populace, or of a modern Canadian work force. 

2) Successful modern businesses understand that employees want to feel valued. They also understand that, if they want to access a higher quantity and quality of talent, they need to become an employer that people actually want to work for. This thinking should drive military reform.

To start, the CAF should substantially increase members’ pay. No profession is as uniquely demanding, in physical and psychological terms, as military service; wages should reflect that. 

And just as work-life balance is an important consideration in a modern workplace, military leaders should recognize that deployment time is not the equivalent of working from a different office: It is a high-demand period that requires meaningful rest afterward. Post-deployment time off should be equal to the time of deployment, as is the policy in the Danish navy (and elsewhere in offshore industries). This has helped keep Danish enlistment high, and attrition low.

3) Marching in lines, stamping feet on parade grounds and keeping with traditional uniforms – these should also be done away with. These rituals are simply not relevant to the citizens who must make up the force of the future; they reflect the reality that Canada’s military is stuck in the past.

Nobody wants to work in an old, tired organization that draws its culture and values from a museum; people want to be part of an agile organization that rewards modern values. The Canadian Armed Forces needs to abandon its sternward perspective on legacy force structure and missions – or it won’t be able to bail out the sinking ship.

 

 

[Iceni warrior]

On 12/2/2022 at 12:00 AM, Dougie93 said:

the only operational imperative is conformity

so long as individuality is subjected to the group

which is necessary for the purposes of state sanctioned mass murder on behalf of the British Crown

since no individual can shoulder that burden without going insane

thus, it is not blue hair which is a problem per se

it's simply that if one soldier in the formation has blue hair

then all the soldiers in said formation should all have blue hair

tho I of course would prefer Maroon hair all round instead

Airborne

 

A mate on my UK site was telling me a story about his time in the Royal Engineers.

If you don't mind me crowbaring it into this thread I'd like to share...

 

Quote

I like port. I seem to remember the amount of port quaffed on regimental dinner nights was ridiculous. All breaches of etiquette were fined, and fines were paid in bottles of port the number of bottles depended on the gravity of the crime and the RSM. On one memorable occasion I was fined six bottles. My crime: someone during the dinner managed to sneak the card with my name on it, name cards were on the table indicating where people sat. After a couple of hours the RSM bellowed from the top table, Sgt Rackham, all went quiet, I looked up to the top table thinking ffs what's this. The RSM waved my name card in the air and said, that will be six bottles. I thought, what the frack for? My name card was passed down the table back to me. On one side it said; Sgt Rackham. On the other side one of my 'friends' had written "The RSM's wife can suck a golf ball though 20 feet of garden hose". 

All fines had to be quaffed before anyone left the mess. Indeed, we didn't leave the table for four or five hours, depending on what sort of a mood the RSM was in. One RSM in particular insisted regimental dinner nights would only end once the mess had toasted the Queen at daybreak. So just before dawn we would all leave the mess and take our places on a semi circle of chairs that had been arranged on the lawn, facing east I suppose. As soon as the sun broke the horizon the RSM would instruct everyone to be upstanding and say, gentlemen, the Queen, which was echoed, and we all necked a glass of port then went back into the mess, I'm sure her majesty appreciated it. 

 

[ExFlyer]

12 hours ago, Moonbox said:

It's not.  I'm going to have to go with Army Guy on this.  Considering the lifestyle sacrifices you make, the danger in which you put yourself, and the training requirements and standards that are expected of you, our servicemen and women are being underappreciated compared to their civilian counterparts.  

Ignoring diversity and not at least encouraging it doesn't work either.  Despite what everyone seems to portray, there is a huge amount of nuance and gray area we can aim for.  

This was a very interesting and timely read:

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/article-canada-military-shortage-crisis/

Written by a navy commander who retired back in 2019.  Here are some of his observations:

1) Support for our troops is certainly necessary, but it doesn’t deal with the fundamental problem: The Canadian Armed Forces no longer reflect the principles and values of the Canadian populace, or of a modern Canadian work force. 

2) Successful modern businesses understand that employees want to feel valued. They also understand that, if they want to access a higher quantity and quality of talent, they need to become an employer that people actually want to work for. This thinking should drive military reform.

To start, the CAF should substantially increase members’ pay. No profession is as uniquely demanding, in physical and psychological terms, as military service; wages should reflect that. 

And just as work-life balance is an important consideration in a modern workplace, military leaders should recognize that deployment time is not the equivalent of working from a different office: It is a high-demand period that requires meaningful rest afterward. Post-deployment time off should be equal to the time of deployment, as is the policy in the Danish navy (and elsewhere in offshore industries). This has helped keep Danish enlistment high, and attrition low.

3) Marching in lines, stamping feet on parade grounds and keeping with traditional uniforms – these should also be done away with. These rituals are simply not relevant to the citizens who must make up the force of the future; they reflect the reality that Canada’s military is stuck in the past.

Nobody wants to work in an old, tired organization that draws its culture and values from a museum; people want to be part of an agile organization that rewards modern values. The Canadian Armed Forces needs to abandon its sternward perspective on legacy force structure and missions – or it won’t be able to bail out the sinking ship.

 

 

Not arguing the lifestyle, just saying the pay is actually quite good and very often, for certain occupations, better than the civilian counterpart.

Yes, there are implied dangers and risks every service person takes but lets not overplay that. Today, Canada has less than 3000 (out of about 90,000 regular and reserve persons) personnel out of country.

There are the majority of service personnel do not partake in conflict events out of country. Yes ArmyGuy and even dougie have been but they are out and out soldiers and most Canadian Forces personnel are not "soldiers" per say, not combat arms people.

[Dougie93]

9 hours ago, Iceni warrior said:

A mate on my UK site was telling me a story about his time in the Royal Engineers.

If you don't mind me crowbaring it into this thread I'd like to share...

I joined up with a lot of British ex-pats back in the 80's

my two closest mates in the regiment and life,  are from England & Scotland

we were old school

as Canada is not a republic, we served the Commander-in-Chief

Soldiers of Crown who took the Queen's Schilling

Dileas

[Moonbox]

2 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Not arguing the lifestyle, just saying the pay is actually quite good and very often, for certain occupations, better than the civilian counterpart.

I don't think the pay and the lifestyle can be separated.  Service members should get paid more than their civilian counterparts - significantly more, because today's young people are otherwise going to choose the safer, less arduous and more flexible career options, other things being equal.  

[Dougie93]

23 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I don't think the pay and the lifestyle can be separated.  Service members should get paid more than their civilian counterparts - significantly more, because today's young people are otherwise going to choose the safer, less arduous and more flexible career options, other things being equal.  

the pay,  to me,  was simply that which allowed me to serve

the honour & privilege of being just another face in the ranks of the thin red line

like my grandfather & great grandfather before me

brotherhood, crucible, sacrifice, adventure

Christian Soldiers of the Crown, defending the free world from tyranny & totalitarianism

Regiment, Corps, Commander-in-Chief

we honestly would have done it for free

[ExFlyer]

54 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I don't think the pay and the lifestyle can be separated.  Service members should get paid more than their civilian counterparts - significantly more, because today's young people are otherwise going to choose the safer, less arduous and more flexible career options, other things being equal.  

My point is that they do get paid significantly more. Have a look at the link I posted.

A clerk, admin staff, dental hygienist, stores man and other trades/jobs/occupations starting wage is $38K and within 3 years is $55K. That is a lot more than the civilian equivalent.

Also, as I said, the lifestyle and risk is not as much as some (many) people think. Most Canadian military do not go into conflict. Hard core combat arms will but others, if sent at all, will be in what Canada normally sends, logistic support way back from the fighting.

As for career flexibility, there is a lot of flexibility in the Military. I had a lot of infantry, artillery, signals soldiers remuster to aircraft technical trades after a few years. The Search and Rescue Tech trade has many soldiers that remustered. Once in, you can change to something else if whatever you initially chose does not suit you.

Military is a family. It is not just soldiers as dougie like you to think. Most live for today and the future and are not absorbed by and live the past. Most also are in it for Country and not just a small regiment or squadron or ship. They very much feel and are very proud they are serving Canada.

Edited December 4, 2022 by ExFlyer

[Army Guy]

22 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I have to disagree with you about pay. The military pay is very good in comparison to civil standards. Yes, there was at time when the pay was not as good but that has changed a lot. A private, off the street regardless of occupation makes $38K per year and within 3 years is up to $55K and within 5 years is up to $70K. Pretty good for a clerk or stores person and other trades within the military.

Forced diversity is not working.  It never will.

I think once you start writing down everything expected for the civilian worker (civil servant) and then military worker doing the same jobs, there is going to be a huge divide in reasonability's and expectations. And this becomes even more evident if you compare the same in the Army or Navy in regard to hours worked, conditions they work in, what is asked of them both physically or mentally. Once you add it all up there is a huge gap that could be filled with wage increases. 

The average wage for a Garbage man in the Toronto area is 73 K between 50 and 73 K not including bonus... i think that may help to put things into preceptive. 

Salary: Garbage Man in Toronto, ON 2022 | Glassdoor

One could also look at specialist trades, such as pilots, doctors, nurses, boat captains, and many more they are not paid as well as their civilian counter parts. 

I think the military could and should look at our pays and all the bonuses we are entitled to get, to make them more equitable across the board to all members. The air force does seem to hold a lot more bonus than any other element. 

That being said this problem is worldwide,

we are the Number one paid military on the planet, which eats up most of the Budget, that being said unless your training budget exceeds your pay budget, you're never going to get what you paid for, ie Canadians soldiers are not the best in the world in soldiering just the highest paid. 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

we are the Number one paid military on the planet

used to be

Canada now has the fourth highest paid  military

the highest paid in the world now is HM Australian Defence Force

[ExFlyer]

23 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I think once you start writing down everything expected for the civilian worker (civil servant) and then military worker doing the same jobs, there is going to be a huge divide in reasonability's and expectations. And this becomes even more evident if you compare the same in the Army or Navy in regard to hours worked, conditions they work in, what is asked of them both physically or mentally. Once you add it all up there is a huge gap that could be filled with wage increases. 

The average wage for a Garbage man in the Toronto area is 73 K between 50 and 73 K not including bonus... i think that may help to put things into preceptive. 

Salary: Garbage Man in Toronto, ON 2022 | Glassdoor

One could also look at specialist trades, such as pilots, doctors, nurses, boat captains, and many more they are not paid as well as their civilian counter parts. 

I think the military could and should look at our pays and all the bonuses we are entitled to get, to make them more equitable across the board to all members. The air force does seem to hold a lot more bonus than any other element. 

That being said this problem is worldwide,

we are the Number one paid military on the planet, which eats up most of the Budget, that being said unless your training budget exceeds your pay budget, you're never going to get what you paid for, ie Canadians soldiers are not the best in the world in soldiering just the highest paid. 

I am not disputing, I am just saying the military pay is not so bad anymore.

Your comparison may, at certain times be correct but, as a rule, most military nowadays is a 9 to 5 job.

As I have said, the Army guys are all home, only 3000 Canadian military are out of country now. As for the navy, we have very few ships and wiht exception of NATO duties, many of the sailors are home too. Airfofce, well, the y are all basically home except for missions of supply delivery.

Pilots, doctors nurses etc (Ship captains?) are a rare exception although, they are quit  well paid and are not under the same situations their civilian counterparts have endured the past few years.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/pay-pension-benefits/pay/officers.html

I fully agree that when out of country especially in conflict areas, you should get additional pay, oh wit, you do. As do out of country admin or logistic postings.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-205-allowances-for-officers-and-non-commissioned-members.html

 

As you agree with "the military could and should look at our pays and all the bonuses we are entitled to get"

And, Canadian Military is not just combat arms soldiers.

[Army Guy]

50 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

Also, as I said, the lifestyle and risk is not as much as some (many) people think. Most Canadian military do not go into conflict. Hard core combat arms will but others, if sent at all, will be in what Canada normally sends, logistic support way back from the fighting.

As for career flexibility, there is a lot of flexibility in the Military. I had a lot of infantry, artillery, signals soldiers remuster to aircraft technical trades after a few years. The Search and Rescue Tech trade has many soldiers that remustered. Once in, you can change to something else if whatever you initially chose does not suit you.

Military is a family. It is not just soldiers as dougie like you to think. Most live for today and the future and are not absorbed by and live the past. Most also are in it for Country and not just a small regiment or squadron or ship. They very much feel and are very proud they are serving Canada.

I think this is your perspective, from your job and element. Any operation faces drastic increases in threats, from being in a ship in the gulf or being on an airstrip in Qatar during the gulf war. 

When your aircraft dives for the runway to avoid small arms that's an indication your no longer in kanas Dorthey. 15 mins out before landing they ask you to don your flak jacket and helmet, that's another sign. In Afghanistan everyone was subjected to enemy rocket and machine gun fire on a regular basis and you did not have to leave camp for any of that.

if you went outside the wire it was not IF you were going to be attacked, but WHEN, it was very rare that any convoy that went out did not experience combat of some sort. 40,000 Canadians troops served in Afghanistan in the 10 years we were there, if you were in the army during that time odds are you served at least one tour, on average 3 to 4 tours were common with some up to 8 tours... And while it may be true not many have exchanged gun fire, they have experienced what war is like, seeing a man torn up and bleed from everywhere, to experiencing what it is like to get shot at, to see the effects of our weapons on the enemy, or just seeing what our enemies were capable of inflicting pain and suffering on their own people. Nobody comes back for a war zone without a major change in your personality, or outlook on life. 

Same as Bosnia, we might not have been exchanging gun fire on a regular basis, but it was as close as you can get, again over 40 k troops served in Bosnia/ Serbia/ Macedonia, Kosovo. 

It is much different serving in a Regiment in the Army, than say a Sqn in the air force, there is not the same comradery in the air force, they are not bonded by sharing the same difficult moments in training or on operations, it is night and day comparison. 

Your entire stay in a Regiment, everyone is focused on just that the Regiment, from sports, to training, to interpersonal relations all focus on the Regiment. Every grunt is taught very early that everyone else is just a POG, plug, anything but equal, their lifestyles are different, they career paths are different, they experiences are different, everything is different. this is drilled into everyone's head. 

Even after they go on and get a new trade, say like SAR tech many will have their Regimental Cap badge on the inside of their berets, or be proud of their experience as an infantryman they still have loyalty to the Regiment.  it is a bond that is hard to break...I have not met Dougie, but just knowing he shared the same Regiment means he is an equal, he has already earned my respect in many ways. i would not question many things like his soldiering abilities, his character, his determination to get things done, his integrity things that were drilled into every soldier's heads constantly from day one until your retirement date. 

The marine corp adopts this decision process, by making all trades first pass infantry training, becasue everyone marine is a soldier first including female marines...we tried this in Canada but failed in a lot of aspects. 

[ExFlyer]

21 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I think this is your perspective, from your job and element. Any operation faces drastic increases in threats, from being in a ship in the gulf or being on an airstrip in Qatar during the gulf war. 

When your aircraft dives for the runway to avoid small arms that's an indication your no longer in kanas Dorthey. 15 mins out before landing they ask you to don your flak jacket and helmet, that's another sign. In Afghanistan everyone was subjected to enemy rocket and machine gun fire on a regular basis and you did not have to leave camp for any of that.

if you went outside the wire it was not IF you were going to be attacked, but WHEN, it was very rare that any convoy that went out did not experience combat of some sort. 40,000 Canadians troops served in Afghanistan in the 10 years we were there, if you were in the army during that time odds are you served at least one tour, on average 3 to 4 tours were common with some up to 8 tours... And while it may be true not many have exchanged gun fire, they have experienced what war is like, seeing a man torn up and bleed from everywhere, to experiencing what it is like to get shot at, to see the effects of our weapons on the enemy, or just seeing what our enemies were capable of inflicting pain and suffering on their own people. Nobody comes back for a war zone without a major change in your personality, or outlook on life. 

Same as Bosnia, we might not have been exchanging gun fire on a regular basis, but it was as close as you can get, again over 40 k troops served in Bosnia/ Serbia/ Macedonia, Kosovo. 

It is much different serving in a Regiment in the Army, than say a Sqn in the air force, there is not the same comradery in the air force, they are not bonded by sharing the same difficult moments in training or on operations, it is night and day comparison. 

Your entire stay in a Regiment, everyone is focused on just that the Regiment, from sports, to training, to interpersonal relations all focus on the Regiment. Every grunt is taught very early that everyone else is just a POG, plug, anything but equal, their lifestyles are different, they career paths are different, they experiences are different, everything is different. this is drilled into everyone's head. 

Even after they go on and get a new trade, say like SAR tech many will have their Regimental Cap badge on the inside of their berets, or be proud of their experience as an infantryman they still have loyalty to the Regiment.  it is a bond that is hard to break...I have not met Dougie, but just knowing he shared the same Regiment means he is an equal, he has already earned my respect in many ways. i would not question many things like his soldiering abilities, his character, his determination to get things done, his integrity things that were drilled into every soldier's heads constantly from day one until your retirement date. 

The marine corp adopts this decision process, by making all trades first pass infantry training, becasue everyone marine is a soldier first including female marines...we tried this in Canada but failed in a lot of aspects. 

I appreciate your perspective and you are correct, for those times in those situations but, Like I said, we have very few out of country personal now and in the past few years. (up to 3000 out of 90,000 regular and reserve).

Yes, up to 40K personnel were in Afghanistan over a period of 10+ years. many served several times. Perspective now, 40K over 10 years is not a significant part of the military and that more than likely, as you said, the same personnel went back often. If you wish to use those types of equivalence, we had 90K X 10years personnel over those 10 years.

40K  personnel in  Bosnia (Balkan war) but it was a 19 year conflict and yes, we participated under NATO.

Absolutely, positively, serving in a regiment as a soldier is far different than being in an Air Force squadron. I have also said that we do not have many hard core combat arms troops and they serve in conflict far more than any other military occupations.

I apologize that this turned into a who served the most topic, I only said, in the beginning, that Military pay was pretty good.

I am fully aware of who went and where, maybe my NDHQ tours showed me the "big" picture of service in the Military?

Edited December 4, 2022 by ExFlyer

[Army Guy]

21 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I am not disputing, I am just saying the military pay is not so bad anymore.

Your comparison may, at certain times be correct but, as a rule, most military nowadays is a 9 to 5 job.

As I have said, the Army guys are all home, only 3000 Canadian military are out of country now. As for the navy, we have very few ships and wiht exception of NATO duties, many of the sailors are home too. Airfofce, well, the y are all basically home except for missions of supply delivery.

Pilots, doctors nurses etc (Ship captains?) are a rare exception although, they are quit  well paid and are not under the same situations their civilian counterparts have endured the past few years.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/services/benefits-military/pay-pension-benefits/pay/officers.html

I fully agree that when out of country especially in conflict areas, you should get additional pay, oh wit, you do. As do out of country admin or logistic postings.

https://www.canada.ca/en/department-national-defence/corporate/policies-standards/compensation-benefits-instructions/chapter-205-allowances-for-officers-and-non-commissioned-members.html

 

As you agree with "the military could and should look at our pays and all the bonuses we are entitled to get"

And, Canadian Military is not just combat arms soldiers.

I think the point here is this, if a garbage man in Toronto is getting paid more it should be a red flag. and to say working at Canadians tire is the same thing is dishonest. to the point where yes it should be looked at. 

Just a note not everyone in the military is 9 to 5, not in the Amry or Navy it may be that way for the most part in the air force, but in the army not so, training is not 9 to 5, it is 24 and 7 for weeks at a time, one might get lucky and see a few hours every 24 hours, and in some case 0 for days at a time. and in conditions from -45 in the winter, to plus 25 degrees in bug infested woods that just want your blood and every ounce of it. with no escape for weeks. Just those conditions alone would be worth a pay raise, and not the 11.50 a day they do pay you.. not to mention the risk of putting a 18-year-old in charge of driving a 30-ton IFV at night with no lights and he that has had no sleep in the last 3 days...just going to the ranges can be deadly. 

Like i said you have had a different prospective, and in a different element. that may or may not have the same training or expectations as other elements. 

Getting paid bonus for Danger is true, if and when they are approved, and for what level they are approve, they are based of how much experience you have, for instance more tours of duty the higher your bonus, and really look at the bonus and tell me they are equitable, we are talking about your life and what it is worth to risk it right. telling a private his life is only worth a couple hundred while mine is worth almost 1000 at the max level. 

[Army Guy]

4 minutes ago, ExFlyer said:

I appreciate your perspective and you are correct, for those times in those situations but, Like I said, we have very few out of country personal now and in the past few years. (up to 3000 out of 90,000 regular and reserve).

Yes, up to 40K personnel were in Afghanistan over a period of 10+ years. many served several times. Perspective now, 40K over 10 years is not a significant part of the military and that more than likely, as you said, the same personnel went back often. If you wish to use those types of equivalence, we had 90K X 10years personnel over those 10 years.

40K  personnel in  Bosnia (Balkan war) but it was a 19 year conflict and yes, we participated under NATO.

Absolutely, positively, serving in a regiment as a soldier is far different than being in an Air Force squadron. I have also said that we do not have many hard core combat arms troops and they serve in conflict far more than any other military occupations.

I apologize that this turned into a who served the most topic, I only said, in the beginning, that Military pay was pretty good.

You seem to forget that each element had their own thing going on during all those years be it Afghanistan, and Bosnia, the Airforce had ships in the gulf looking for bad guys, and weapons shipments, air force had aircraft patrolling the same areas. basically, supporting both Bosnian and Afghanistan i remember an American F-117 being shot down over Bosnia by the Serbs, goes to say it was not all fun and games, i also remember navy and air force having operations tied into the IRAQI conflict all shooting wars. So i think at the time there was far more than the 40,000 army guys but much more. 

My point was in Afghanistan, everyone was on the front lines, yes the Combat arms lived most of their time outside the wire, our jobs, but in this case it was a team sport, we always needed bullets, beans, fuel, and the log guys delivered that to us, in the boonies somewhere. they earned every penny they got "my opinion". 

I'm not turning this into a dick measuring contest, and for the most part they are paid well when compared to other militaries globally, but where i disagree is when a garbage man can earn a better living than a Cpl in the military there is a problem that need to be addressed. and with current recruiting crises it makes more sense to pay them more than give them more hair color choices. 

[ExFlyer]

3 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I think the point here is this, if a garbage man in Toronto is getting paid more it should be a red flag. and to say working at Canadians tire is the same thing is dishonest. to the point where yes it should be looked at. 

Just a note not everyone in the military is 9 to 5, not in the Amry or Navy it may be that way for the most part in the air force, but in the army not so, training is not 9 to 5, it is 24 and 7 for weeks at a time, one might get lucky and see a few hours every 24 hours, and in some case 0 for days at a time. and in conditions from -45 in the winter, to plus 25 degrees in bug infested woods that just want your blood and every ounce of it. with no escape for weeks. Just those conditions alone would be worth a pay raise, and not the 11.50 a day they do pay you.. not to mention the risk of putting a 18-year-old in charge of driving a 30-ton IFV at night with no lights and he that has had no sleep in the last 3 days...just going to the ranges can be deadly. 

Like i said you have had a different prospective, and in a different element. that may or may not have the same training or expectations as other elements. 

Getting paid bonus for Danger is true, if and when they are approved, and for what level they are approve, they are based of how much experience you have, for instance more tours of duty the higher your bonus, and really look at the bonus and tell me they are equitable, we are talking about your life and what it is worth to risk it right. telling a private his life is only worth a couple hundred while mine is worth almost 1000 at the max level. 

The garbage man in Edmonton gets $43K. Calgary $52K, Montreal $41.K Again, all in perspective.  A average office clerk in Canada makes $33K but in the Military a private clerk makes $55 and in 3 to 4 years makes $63K. Again, it is all perspective,

I never said everyone in the military is 9 to 5 but to recognize, many are. Look around the personnel on your last base and see how many did not deploy or only deployed ones in the past 10 or more years. There are a lot.

I also said I have different perspective but , you should be able to have one as well. I told you I respect and recognize the Army (combat arms) is different . I also said not everyone, even most military are not in the Army, let alone combat arms.

Danger pay is not life insurance, it is in recognition of the duty you are pulling and the more you pull, the more you get paid.... is it incentive to return?

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

The garbage man in Edmonton gets $43K. Calgary $52K, Montreal $41.K Again, all in perspective.  A average office clerk in Canada makes $33K but in the Military a private clerk makes $55 and in 3 to 4 years makes $63K. Again, it is all perspective,

I never said everyone in the military is 9 to 5 but to recognize, many are. Look around the personnel on your last base and see how many did not deploy or only deployed ones in the past 10 or more years. There are a lot.

I also said I have different perspective but , you should be able to have one as well. I told you I respect and recognize the Army (combat arms) is different . I also said not everyone, even most military are not in the Army, let alone combat arms.

Danger pay is not life insurance, it is in recognition of the duty you are pulling and the more you pull, the more you get paid.... is it incentive to return?

Yes, all in perspective, the average office clerk does not spend weeks at a time living out of a 10 man artic tent, nor do they spend the spring getting eaten alive by bugs while living out of a ground sheet in a Houch. nor have they signed onto unlimited liability. or spend months at sea working unlimited hours for days at a time, there is no over time, no compensation for lost weekends or holidays, one might get lucky and be granted a few days off for a month-long ex. same as deployments, to which currently well over 3000 people deployed right now, with no danger pay, or field pay, but a minimum deployment allowance. 

So the garbage guy in Toronto lucked out, the fact is comparing his job with a military clerk one could come to the conclusion perhaps there is a pay gap that could be looked at. 

Thats the problem you think I'm talking strictly combat arms and i am not, each BN is equipped with over 200 support trades, and were we go they go, and while they are not on the front lines with the infantry, they are pretty close. Company HQ might be as little as 500 meters away. Veh techs do operate on the battlefield, as supply guys dropping off ammo, food and beans.  everyone operates as a team, everyone contributes to something, but their asses are on the line as well.  

It should be noted that the Army is the largest of all the elements. and contains more people than the other two elements 44,000 out of the total of 90 more like less than 80 k is a large chunk. 

 

• 22,500 members serve as full-time soldiers in the Regular Force
• 21,500 are part-time, volunteer soldiers in the Reserve Force
  • including 5,300 Rangers who serve in sparsely settled northern, coastal and isolated areas of Canada
• 3,500 civilian employees who support the Army
• 63 Regular Force and 185 Reserve Force Units in 117 Communities
• 194 Ranger Patrols in more than 220 Communities

The Canadian Army of Today - Canada.ca

No danger pay is not life insurance but getting a couple hundred bucks a month to go on any operational mission is peanuts really.  a guy would make more in field pay in Canada, so it might warrant some looking into. 

 

 

 

[ExFlyer]

14 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Yes, all in perspective, the average office clerk does not spend weeks at a time living out of a 10 man artic tent, nor do they spend the spring getting eaten alive by bugs while living out of a ground sheet in a Houch. nor have they signed onto unlimited liability. or spend months at sea working unlimited hours for days at a time, there is no over time, no compensation for lost weekends or holidays, one might get lucky and be granted a few days off for a month-long ex. same as deployments, to which currently well over 3000 people deployed right now, with no danger pay, or field pay, but a minimum deployment allowance. 

So the garbage guy in Toronto lucked out, the fact is comparing his job with a military clerk one could come to the conclusion perhaps there is a pay gap that could be looked at. 

Thats the problem you think I'm talking strictly combat arms and i am not, each BN is equipped with over 200 support trades, and were we go they go, and while they are not on the front lines with the infantry, they are pretty close. Company HQ might be as little as 500 meters away. Veh techs do operate on the battlefield, as supply guys dropping off ammo, food and beans.  everyone operates as a team, everyone contributes to something, but their asses are on the line as well.  

It should be noted that the Army is the largest of all the elements. and contains more people than the other two elements 44,000 out of the total of 90 more like less than 80 k is a large chunk. 

 

• 22,500 members serve as full-time soldiers in the Regular Force
• 21,500 are part-time, volunteer soldiers in the Reserve Force
  • including 5,300 Rangers who serve in sparsely settled northern, coastal and isolated areas of Canada
• 3,500 civilian employees who support the Army
• 63 Regular Force and 185 Reserve Force Units in 117 Communities
• 194 Ranger Patrols in more than 220 Communities

The Canadian Army of Today - Canada.ca

No danger pay is not life insurance but getting a couple hundred bucks a month to go on any operational mission is peanuts really.  a guy would make more in field pay in Canada, so it might warrant some looking into. 

 

 

 

Thanks for the debate.

Can we agree that the army personnel may go out to the field and the rest of the military may not.

Can we agree that the military salary is a good one, regardless where you sleep at nights? As you have said so many times, the Army does not have enough money for training nowadays.

As an aside, I do not include the Rangers from up north. I have worked on the Twin Otters resupplying them with ammunition so they can go hunting. (sarcastic, but true)

Can we agree that the Army has not been out of country in a number of years. Afghanistan, 9 or 10  years ago, Balkans over 13 years ago. And to be clear, those persons over there for those conflicts were not all Army.

Can we agree that there are less than 3000 military personnel out of country right now and most of them are in logistic or admin or training support.

As you stated earlier "a dick measuring contest" as clearly my Air Force dick is not as big as Army but, the Canadian Army has been somewhat home bound for quite a while.

My very first point was that military pay is quite good, and it is, by comparison to civil counterparts.

 

 

Edited December 5, 2022 by ExFlyer

[Aristides]

I really don't think most people join the military because of the money. Yes, it has to be reasonable and afford them a decent standard of living but that is not the primary reason they join. This is what separates a country's armed forces from mercenaries.

The military has to be something people want to join other than for the money. The idea that we can treat them however we want if we just pay them more won't wash in a society with lots of civilian jobs and social safety nets 

[Moonbox]

1 hour ago, ExFlyer said:

My very first point was that military pay is quite good, and it is, by comparison to civil counterparts.

I don't think the civilian counterparts are fair comparisons most of the time.  If you compare a clerical job in the CAF against a Service Canada position, the roles, lifestyle and expectations aren't even in the same realm, I suspect.  The former is likely working in the same places as everyday Canadians (like Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver), the latter is potentially living in Petawawa, Cold Lake or somewhere like that, or even Latvia.   

It doesn't really matter that we haven't seen major deployments in 8-9 years either.  The reality is that service members assume the risk of deployment regardless of whether there are active missions.  

 

[Army Guy]

3 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

Thanks for the debate.

1...Can we agree that the army personnel may go out to the field and the rest of the military may not.

2..Can we agree that the military salary is a good one, regardless where you sleep at nights? As you have said so many times, the Army does not have enough money for training nowadays.

As an aside, I do not include the Rangers from up north. I have worked on the Twin Otters resupplying them with ammunition so they can go hunting. (sarcastic, but true)

Can we agree that the Army has not been out of country in a number of years. Afghanistan, 9 or 10  years ago, Balkans over 13 years ago. And to be clear, those persons over there for those conflicts were not all Army.

Can we agree that there are less than 3000 military personnel out of country right now and most of them are in logistic or admin or training support.

As you stated earlier "a dick measuring contest" as clearly my Air Force dick is not as big as Army but, the Canadian Army has been somewhat home bound for quite a while.

My very first point was that military pay is quite good, and it is, by comparison to civil counterparts.

 

 

1... No, i think every element goes on exercise, to a certain extent, i remember doing an exericise with 440 SAR sqn Edmonton ( i think that what they were called) back in the day to simulate a major aircraft crash, the site was Wainwright Alberta in the middle of feb, the Army guys got to play the role of victims, and the SAR guys jumped in and began their training. I remember it being about -40 and they had done us all up in realistic wounds including fake blood with pumps to make it gush, so when you combats get cut off in -40 it gets cold fast... I'm sure you have had training that was not comfortable, so it's not just regulated to the Army, but the entire forces. like BDF which includes all base personal, which includes training in all elements, airshows, how many dog and pony shows have you put on for the chain of command that included jumping it all counts as activities that normal citizens would not be faced with. I can even imagine life on a sub, let alone our subs.

2.. it is a fair wage when you compare it to other nations, but once you start comparing it with common civilian jobs then there really not that much difference if you consider all the other components we do and they do not. My son is in the Regiment today, and lots of soldiers are leaving for better paying jobs that are not so intensive both physically or mentally, so much so that the unit sits in around 55 to 60 % manned... to put that into context less than 50 % and the unit is classified as combat ineffective, hence the CDS announcement. Increasing wages would be a really good incentive to a keep people or get them to join. Stop all the flow chart hiring practices and start hiring based on merit alone, and i'm sure those that want to have a career in the military will step up.

Canadian army is in Latvia right now, most of those are combat arms, as they are part of an international battle group., and yes there are loggie and Admin people there as well. Those in UK are Combat arms training the Ukrainians, not that there is any danger involved, at least they are not concerned of being shot in the back like in Afghanistan, but they are deployed. it should also be noted that even in Afghanistan on average we only had a battle group deployed plus PRT, so not much greater than 34 to 4000 troops, although at one point we did have a full brigade there...  lets not forget the Navy with ships deployed in the northern Atlantic, and Pacific along with Maritime patrol aircraft patrolling north Korea. add them up and the numbers grow... not to mention, the politics ongoing , about expanding the battle group in Latvia, talks about a combat force in Haiti , and the new agreement on expanding our presence in the Pacific, all of these will stretch our abilities to the max if not break them.

listen nothing any good comes out of any measuring contest, and i'm not trying to shout you down, just showning we both have much different perspectives from much different angles.   

 

[ExFlyer]

5 hours ago, Moonbox said:

I don't think the civilian counterparts are fair comparisons most of the time.  If you compare a clerical job in the CAF against a Service Canada position, the roles, lifestyle and expectations aren't even in the same realm, I suspect.  The former is likely working in the same places as everyday Canadians (like Toronto, Montreal or Vancouver), the latter is potentially living in Petawawa, Cold Lake or somewhere like that, or even Latvia.   

It doesn't really matter that we haven't seen major deployments in 8-9 years either.  The reality is that service members assume the risk of deployment regardless of whether there are active missions.  

 

I am fully cognizant of the role, dangers, lifestyle of a military member. I have lived it for 35 years. Yes, not in the Army but I did exercises as well.

My semi annual SAREX was in the bush, sleeping in tents, winter and summer. As well as international ones with other countries doing MAJAID (major air disaster) simulations in Canad as well as abroad.

I know we have NATO, NORAD and RIMPAC excersizes .

I fully understand the requirement to go in the "field".  I just want people not to overestimate the amount. Even ArmyGuy has complained there is has been no money to participate in as many as before.

Some are in Latvia, as are some Airmen. Some are in UK, training others. Some are elsewhere, in Africa, 5 are in Kosovo, largest contingent is 800 in Iraq and on and on for a total of less than 3000 out of the 90,000 military (Army, Navy and Air Force).

So, in today's current military, I believe the salary comparison is fair.

There are many jobs that the workers have to travel to and are away from homes for extended periods. Fishing, logging, oil workers, miners and so on. Some of the conditions those workers live in are not 5 star hotels either. I have spent a lot of time in small towns and villages in the North, not exactly fine living and cuisine.

As I have said, I respect ArmyGuy and even dougie for their service and tours of duty in conflicts but there has not been any in a very long time and while I may get chastised for not understanding and not having done those conflict areas, no one in the Canadian military has either. Being on supersize (limited ones as Army Guy complained about) is uncomfortable and inconvenient but, no one is shooting at you and you are home after w a week or 2. The past is the past.

Edited December 5, 2022 by ExFlyer

[Army Guy]

22 hours ago, ExFlyer said:

I fully understand the requirement to go in the "field".  I just want people not to overestimate the amount. Even ArmyGuy has complained there is has been no money to participate in as many as before.

Some are in Latvia, as are some Airmen. Some are in UK, training others. Some are elsewhere, in Africa, 5 are in Kosovo, largest contingent is 800 in Iraq and on and on for a total of less than 3000 out of the 90,000 military (Army, Navy and Air Force).

So, in today's current military, I believe the salary comparison is fair.

There are many jobs that the workers have to travel to and are away from homes for extended periods. Fishing, logging, oil workers, miners and so on. Some of the conditions those workers live in are not 5 star hotels either. I have spent a lot of time in small towns and villages in the North, not exactly fine living and cuisine.

As I have said, I respect ArmyGuy and even dougie for their service and tours of duty in conflicts but there has not been any in a very long time and while I may get chastised for not understanding and not having done those conflict areas, no one in the Canadian military has either. Being on supersize (limited ones as Army Guy complained about) is uncomfortable and inconvenient but, no one is shooting at you and you are home after w a week or 2. The past is the past.

I have complained, one can not not maintain proficiency in ones job if your only going to do it or train at it a couple months a year. back in the day the ratio was 8 months out of the 12, today maybe 1 month or if your lucky 2 months. job knowledge fades over time. 

3000 does not sound like a lot, but most of those troops are coming out of the Army, considering there might be only 2500 combat arms  in one brigade, with a 1/3 of them sick or injured, 1/3 of them on course or leave, spinning up rotations on a constant time line is how you get burn out.

Iraq takes a different spin as most of those guys are CSOR, and their supporters, they don't have any real numbers to draw on, I think they are still doing 3 month tours not sure. 

You don't have to be in a combat zone for it to be dangerous, in Bosnia each tour suffered on average 4 to 6 deaths just due to the environment, and the job expectations. how many civilian clerks can say the same. My job in the military was not any more dangerous than any other, for the most part, yes there were days i wish i had joined the Air force, but i have read some pretty exploits out of the SAR world of bravery being shown while doing the job, jumping on to a small floating chunk of ice in the middle of the Atlantic to save an Indigenous boy took a huge set of balls. while not knowing if you have an extraction plan made it more challenging. Just becasue no-one was shooting at you does not negate the danger the whole situation was. I have respect for anyone that donned the uniform, i may be better looking, but my job was not more important or more dangerous than yours. 

[Johnny_Beeman]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:20 AM, Army Guy said:

These words will be forgotten tomorrow, already being condemned by irrelevant woke crowd who somehow think this man's opinions are an embarrassment to this nation. it makes me ill sometimes to think how far a great instruction like our Military has fallen to the state it is in today, be it our equipment status, our manning status, how many Soldiers, sailors, and air force members are leaving in droves, not all the people they are attracting now are up to the standards required to defend this nation, or close with and destroy our enemies. It seems the left has or is in mid step in destroying or dismantling our security apparatus, through cuts to budgets, manpower, and equipment, and the Canadian people are fine with that, most even clap at the job being down. in exchange for other programs like dental care or childcare where in a few years will also be under funded, when are we going to learn, are we even smart enough to learn these lessons. 

I think it is the new generations who do not care what they can do for the country, instead have their hands out waiting for the next social program, it's all about me, and F*ck the country, i pay my taxes, they owe me. I know it is hard for them to hear the country owes you nothing. we expect a few things from our country, good health care, every province and the Federal government has failed us, same as education, justice , every governmental department , defense of the nation, policing, fire all of it are under manned or underfunded, and we Canadians think that is normal, shit we even called for cutting funded to our police forces the men and women who do great things every day to keep us safe, with what little support they have. 

'Making Canada better': An excerpt from the anti-woke speech by a general that caused an uproar (msn.com)

There are many other media outlets that have covered the topic, but the leftist slant is almost to much.

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Thank you!