Darwin Strikes Again....

[herbie]

Yes, hydro is like solar. They have to shut the spillways at night to refill the reservoirs.
The dam operators are unionized. It would cost gudzillions to have them not click the reduce power output icon at night.
There has and will be no research into hydrogen generation and storage until Trump is re-elected and orders it so, like he did with vaccines.
Charging vehicles at night is absurd like turning the dishwasher on when you're sleeping instead of just turning the volume up on the TV
If you fill your car with hydrogen, it will float away and be lost. Your insurance won't cover that.
EVs and hydrogen cars explode driving in a straight line, moving ICE vehicles only explode and burn if you turn the steering wheel more than 3 degrees without jamming on the brakes.
Justin Trudeau will put a carbon tax on your tap water if they start using hydrogen from electrolysis.
Burning hydrogen is worse for everything, it creates clouds that trap sunlight and make it even hotter. The added H2O in the air will fall as rain and create floods, maybe completely ruin desert areas.
There is no mention of Climate Change in the Bible, therefore it cannot possibly be true.
Power plants are intrinsically bad, coal fired plants supplying electricity to London made things worse than having a coal heater in every room of every home in London. Uncle Bobby could knick coal off the side of the tracks now he has to PAY 100 quid or so. Who shall pay, who shall PAY?
Hydrogen cars mainly use fuel cells they don't burn it. Have you no respect for tradition?

-book of Excuses 14:7

(provided to all managers and civil servants)

 

[Aristides]

There are some realities of hydrogen that will have to be dealt with. A: separating it from oxygen. B: Storage.

 It also has 1/4 the energy density by volume compared to gasoline. How much of a factor that is will depend on the efficiency of the fuel cell.

[herbie]

BTW they're building a hydrogen plant here in Prince George to fuel a fleet of semis. Fingers crossed its not another run for a year until the grant money runs out project. Seen enough of those in these parts.

H2 vs C8H18... I guess so!

Edited September 23, 2022 by herbie

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, herbie said:

BTW they're building a hydrogen plant here in Prince George to fuel a fleet of semis. Fingers crossed its not another run for a year until the grant money runs out project. Seen enough of those in these parts.

What will power these semis?

[Rebound]

4 minutes ago, Aristides said:

There are some realities of hydrogen that will have to be dealt with. A: separating it from oxygen. B: Storage.

 It also has 1/4 the energy density by volume compared to gasoline. How much of a factor that is will depend on the efficiency of the fuel cell.

I think the first problem is that producing hydrogen fuel is very energy intensive. Yes, the autos are very clean-running but making the production green is very difficult.  
 

The second problem is the hydrogen gas is not like the hydrogen used in the Hindenburg, which, like gasoline, was reactive with a spark. The hydrogen fuel used in fuel cells is reactive with air itself, specifically oxygen. THAT is a very big problem. 

[herbie]

Hydrogen. Straight diesel engine conversion.

Funny thing is there's a refinery up the street, could've gone to propane decades ago.

[herbie]

2 minutes ago, Rebound said:

The second problem is the hydrogen gas is not like the hydrogen used in the Hindenburg, which, like gasoline, was reactive with a spark. The hydrogen fuel used in fuel cells is reactive with air itself, specifically oxygen. THAT is a very big problem.

No it isn't, it is exactly the same. It just isn't in a big balloon bag and it doesn't combust in a fuel cell. It has to leak out AND find a spark to combust, just like propane and LNG

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, herbie said:

Hydrogen. Straight diesel engine conversion.

Funny thing is there's a refinery up the street, could've gone to propane decades ago.

So with the low energy density by volume compared to diesel, they will need tanks four times the size to carry  the same amount of energy. Doable on something the size of a semi. Also, the trucks should be burning it fast enough it won't boil off. It will be interesting to see how it works out. 

[Rebound]

43 minutes ago, Aristides said:

So with the low energy density by volume compared to diesel, they will need tanks four times the size to carry  the same amount of energy. Doable on something the size of a semi. Also, the trucks should be burning it fast enough it won't boil off. It will be interesting to see how it works out. 

They compress the hydrogen gas, since gasses are compressible. 

[sharkman]

5 hours ago, Rebound said:

The form of hydrogen needed for hydrogen cars is very energy intensive to produce and it is highly reactive. The hydrogen immediately reacts when exposed to air. So it’s not so much the fuel cell, it’s the fuel itself that is problematic. 

Well, here's the thing.  Bosch is investing  over a billion into hydrogen technology:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2022/06/07/bosch-to-invest-13b-in-hydrogen-technology-by-2025/?sh=5fb1295f3692

Quote

Today, Bosch North America announced it will be investing $1.3 billion in hydrogen technology by 2025.

And here's another link about Bosch, Hydrogen investing, and 200 million:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2022/08/30/bosch-to-make-fuel-cells-for-hydrogen-trucks-in-south-carolina/?sh=21047f822242

Quote

Bosch, the German conglomerate that makes everything from dishwashers to industrial software and security systems, is investing $200 million in its auto parts factory in South Carolina to produce fuel cell stacks to supply an emerging market for zero-emission trucks powered by hydrogen.

Look, I don't know much about any of this technology, but I'm going to submit to you that when a company is willing to sink at least 1.5 billion in the next 3 years into hydrogen technology for vehicles, then perhaps they have some ideas on how to solve the problems you are presenting. 

Edit:  and another link containing Bosch, Hydrogen investing, and large dollars:

https://www.autonews.com/suppliers/bosch-bets-528-million-green-hydrogen-technology

Edited September 24, 2022 by sharkman

[Rebound]

3 minutes ago, sharkman said:

Well, here's the thing.  Bosch is investing  over a billion into hydrogen technology:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/samabuelsamid/2022/06/07/bosch-to-invest-13b-in-hydrogen-technology-by-2025/?sh=5fb1295f3692

And here's another link about Bosch, Hydrogen investing, and 200 million:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/alanohnsman/2022/08/30/bosch-to-make-fuel-cells-for-hydrogen-trucks-in-south-carolina/?sh=21047f822242

Look, I don't know much about any of this technology, but I'm going to submit to you that when a company is willing to sink at least 1.5 billion in the next 3 years into hydrogen technology for vehicles, then perhaps they have some ideas on how to solve the problems you are presenting. 

 

What you say makes sense. I don’t know much about the particulars of how the problems are different in trucking. They consume a lot more fuel, cost way more than cars, and maybe the logistics of having limited fueling stations is less significant, and there are a lot of other factors that could make it viable. 
 

Personally, I am still not yet convinced that fuel cells are going to be the next big thing.  But with enough research, things can change.  The Toyota Mirai project didn’t work out too well, but maybe time will change things. 

[herbie]

There's different ways to store the hydrogen but compression is the predominant one. New materials have been used to store 4X the pressure of those used today.
I have no idea of what kind of tank they're using for those semis, they only describe them as large - like too large for a car. Then again they don't mention cars need far less fuel storage then semis. I don't think the neighbour's Kenworth would go as far as my Saturn with only a 60L tank.

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Rebound said:

They compress the hydrogen gas, since gasses are compressible. 

Compressed hydrogen would be pretty useless in vehicles, you would need tanks larger than the vehicle to give the same range. Liquid hydrogen's energy density by volume is only a quarter that of diesel and it must be maintained at -252 C to remain liquid, otherwise it will boil off.

[Aristides]

33 minutes ago, herbie said:

There's different ways to store the hydrogen but compression is the predominant one. New materials have been used to store 4X the pressure of those used today.
I have no idea of what kind of tank they're using for those semis, they only describe them as large - like too large for a car. Then again they don't mention cars need far less fuel storage then semis. I don't think the neighbour's Kenworth would go as far as my Saturn with only a 60L tank.

The tanks will have to be four times the size to contain as much energy but that wouldn't be a big problem with something as large as a semi or bus. Your car however would be a different matter. Plus the fact you couldn't let your vehicle sit in the garage for a few days without the hydrogen starting to boil off as it warmed.

[Rebound]

Just now, Aristides said:

Compressed hydrogen would be pretty useless in vehicles, you would need tanks larger than the vehicle to give the same range. Liquid hydrogen's energy density by volume is only a quarter that of diesel and it must be maintained at -252 C to remain liquid, otherwise it will boil off.

You can compress a gas without compressing it all the way down to liquid. 
 

You can read about the Toyota Mirai. It has a carbon fiber tank which holds the compressed hydrogen. The accelerator releases the hydrogen into the fuel cell, where it reacts with air, creating energy and water.  The energy is captured as electricity which powers and electric motor. Completely silent. 

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Rebound said:

You can compress a gas without compressing it all the way down to liquid. 
 

You can read about the Toyota Mirai. It has a carbon fiber tank which holds the compressed hydrogen. The accelerator releases the hydrogen into the fuel cell, where it reacts with air, creating energy and water.  The energy is captured as electricity which powers and electric motor. Completely silent. 

Of course you can but it won't contain much energy. I had a friend who converted a pickup to compressed natural gas. It had two large tanks in the bed just behind the cab. He eventually converted it back to gasoline because he barely had 100 miles range on CNG.

I'm not anti hydrogen or EV or other new technologies, I look forward to them but we are kidding ourselves if we don't recognize the challenges involved in making them work. The unfortunate fact is, when it comes to energy density and ease of use, nothing matches fossil fuels, that is why they have dominated as vehicle fuels and still do, not some oil company conspiracies.

I'm just saying don't get your hopes too high because it is going to be a long haul getting ourselves off fossil fuels and for some applications, we never will, at least not in the foreseeable future.

 

[Rebound]

22 minutes ago, Aristides said:

Of course you can but it won't contain much energy. I had a friend who converted a pickup to compressed natural gas. It had two large tanks in the bed just behind the cab. He eventually converted it back to gasoline because he barely had 100 miles range on CNG.

I'm not anti hydrogen or EV or other new technologies, I look forward to them but we are kidding ourselves if we don't recognize the challenges involved in making them work. The unfortunate fact is, when it comes to energy density and ease of use, nothing matches fossil fuels, that is why they have dominated as vehicle fuels and still do, not some oil company conspiracies.

I'm just saying don't get your hopes too high because it is going to be a long haul getting ourselves off fossil fuels and for some applications, we never will, at least not in the foreseeable future.

 

I think you’ve heard by now that I’m not a big fan of hydrogen fuel cells. But maybe in ten or twenty years they could be very much viable.  
 

OTOH, I think battery-powered electric cars are proven. They are just outstanding solutions and the naysayers criticize them by lying. Tesla’s have beaten very high end Porsches and Ferraris on race courses. We have electricity in our homes. There are still problems for apartment dwellers, but people with garages or driveways can use them and never miss going to gas stations. 

[Aristides]

20 minutes ago, Rebound said:

I think you’ve heard by now that I’m not a big fan of hydrogen fuel cells. But maybe in ten or twenty years they could be very much viable.  
 

OTOH, I think battery-powered electric cars are proven. They are just outstanding solutions and the naysayers criticize them by lying. Tesla’s have beaten very high end Porsches and Ferraris on race courses. We have electricity in our homes. There are still problems for apartment dwellers, but people with garages or driveways can use them and never miss going to gas stations. 

Yes but a Tesla needs a 1200 battery to go as far as a car getting 30 mpg can go on 70 lbs of gas. They may be really fast on a single lap of the Nordschleife but don't ask them to do two laps.

When I was last in Rome looking at the thousands of cars parked on the street in residential areas, I was asking myself where would they all recharge if they were EV's.

[herbie]

Gee Rebound you should apply at Ballard power. They've been saying fuel cells are still 15 years away since my cousin worked there in the 1980s!

Last I heard was the problem with cooling. I guess no one thought about how cars move and had the Eureka air cool moment like Ferdinand Porsche did in the 1930s.

We had a big push for alternate fuels in BC in the early 80s. I had a gas/propane Plymouth and a propane only big Bronco. My B-I-L had 2 LNG vehicles. Died out in the 1990s when they put 10c road tax onto auto propane/LNG and the oil companies pulled their usual. Upped the price 60c a litre to collect that dime. Just after I moved to the boonies, propane was more than gas for a short time. I did run a work truck on it about 10 years back when gas went back up.

But they only produce LESS CO2, and everyone wants everything to be 100% effective or it's no good. Transitioning is a bad word...

 

[Nationalist]

11 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

We've never had hurricanes in the past. Trump made them don't-cha know?

Lol...and floods and droubt and cold and heat...the man is the very harbinger of climate disaster.

[Rebound]

34 minutes ago, herbie said:

Gee Rebound you should apply at Ballard power. They've been saying fuel cells are still 15 years away since my cousin worked there in the 1980s!

Last I heard was the problem with cooling. I guess no one thought about how cars move and had the Eureka air cool moment like Ferdinand Porsche did in the 1930s.

We had a big push for alternate fuels in BC in the early 80s. I had a gas/propane Plymouth and a propane only big Bronco. My B-I-L had 2 LNG vehicles. Died out in the 1990s when they put 10c road tax onto auto propane/LNG and the oil companies pulled their usual. Upped the price 60c a litre to collect that dime. Just after I moved to the boonies, propane was more than gas for a short time. I did run a work truck on it about 10 years back when gas went back up.

But they only produce LESS CO2, and everyone wants everything to be 100% effective or it's no good. Transitioning is a bad word...

 

If Bosch gets hydrogen to work efficiently, I’m happy for them. But as things stand now, I’m gonna call the balls and strikes as I see them and I’m far from the only green advocate who doesn’t think HFC’s are viable.  

[Rebound]

1 hour ago, Aristides said:

Yes but a Tesla needs a 1200 battery to go as far as a car getting 30 mpg can go on 70 lbs of gas. They may be really fast on a single lap of the Nordschleife but don't ask them to do two laps.

When I was last in Rome looking at the thousands of cars parked on the street in residential areas, I was asking myself where would they all recharge if they were EV's.

Let me get this straight: EV’s are no good… because the battery weighs more than a gas tank?  Why not just compare vehicle curb weight and range? Oh yeah… cause then we’d see how ridiculous your argument is. 
 

Like the thread says: Darwin Strikes Again: Automotive tech has evolved past gasoline-powered engines.  Tesla faster than Ferrari or Porsche. End of story. 
 

For all your pointless bluster, there’s a lot to say about having a sedan that’s faster than any Porsche, which never has to go to the gas station.  Oil changes? Nope.  Transmission oil change? Nope? Brake pad changes? Every 100K miles. Worn out belts? There are no belts.   The list goes on and on. 

Edited September 24, 2022 by Rebound

[Nationalist]

11 hours ago, Rebound said:

Yes it absolutely is. 
The west coast wildfires of the past two years were by far the largest in history. The destruction of New Orleans, Puerto Rico and the Bahamas were unprecedented. Nothing has happened like that since the Great Flood.  
 

Now, there was the Chicago Fire. There used to be lots of fires.  How comes that doesn’t happen anymore? Cause of the Gubmint, that’s why!  There are all kinds of bureaucratic standards required for construction which prevent mass fires. And they work. 

Oh for Gawd's sake.

'The forests never burned before...duhhh...'

If you actually tend to a forest...a formerly common act that is now illegal I think...they tend to be greener and burn less. Go figure eh?

Ahhh New Orleans...the genius of building a city on the coast...BELOW sea level. 

Weather has been washing out...starting fires...and blowing up a storm...for ever. It happened throughout history and it'll continue to happen no matter how many stupid faking windmill you pollute farmland with.

Do grow up...just a bit.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Nationalist

[Aristides]

29 minutes ago, Rebound said:

Let me get this straight: EV’s are no good… because the battery weighs more than a gas tank?  Why not just compare vehicle curb weight and range? Oh yeah… cause then we’d see how ridiculous your argument is. 
 

Like the thread says: Darwin Strikes Again: Automotive tech has evolved past gasoline-powered engines.  Tesla faster than Ferrari or Porsche. End of story. 
 

For all your pointless bluster, there’s a lot to say about having a sedan that’s faster than any Porsche, which never has to go to the gas station.  Oil changes? Nope.  Transmission oil change? Nope? Brake pad changes? Every 100K miles. Worn out belts? There are no belts.   The list goes on and on. 

I didn't say they are no good, I said you need a 1200 lb Li battery for an EV to carry as much usable energy as an ICE carrying 70 lbs of gas. Physics is a bitch. 

Lets compare curb weight. EV's are friggin heavy. A Ford Lightning extended range is oner 1000 lbs heavier than the heaviest F-150 ICE.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Aristides

[Nationalist]

11 hours ago, robosmith said:

Only in your imagination. Reality. Try it!

OK reality.

Since you Tweenkies and your mail-in cheating put Brandon in the Whitehouse...

Insane inflation and a shiny new recession 

A wide open southern border

Drug overdoses at never before seen rates

Out of control crime in major cities

Surrender to terrorists 

And of course...a POTUS who shakes hands with the air

Reality...even that you twits have managed to ruin.

Edited September 24, 2022 by Nationalist