Is it Conservative "greed" or are leftists unrealistic?

[West]

One of the most overused leftist catch phrases, in my opinion, is that everything could be better if those darn white people would just pay more taxes and stop being so greedy. 

I guess my question is is it more complex than "the rich don't pay their fair share" or are Conservatives actually "greedy"? 

The way I see it, leftists love to spend money like drunken sailors often times borrowing money to "invest" in social programs. Who benefits from that? Well I would say the rich benefit from borrowed money as that's who makes interest. 

Who loses? Well if you increase the housing benefit, middle class renters are the ones who don't benefit as they are now competing against more people for housing, driving up the cost. 

So who really benefits from the Liberal/NDP coalition? Certainly not who they think does. Though maybe the whole point is to actually make the rich richer

[Moonbox]

5 minutes ago, West said:

One of the most overused leftist catch phrases, in my opinion, is that everything could be better if those darn white people would just pay more taxes and stop being so greedy.

As usual, you mischaracterize the sentiment and dumb it down to absurdity, but let's look at it anyways.  

5 minutes ago, West said:

I guess my question is is it more complex than "the rich don't pay their fair share" or are Conservatives actually "greedy"? 

The Conservatives aren't really the party of the "rich".  

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/election-insights-why-rich-canadians-are-all-in-for-the-liberals

That may have been true 10-15 years ago, it's not really true anymore.  

5 minutes ago, West said:

The way I see it, leftists love to spend money like drunken sailors often times borrowing money to "invest" in social programs. Who benefits from that? Well I would say the rich benefit from borrowed money as that's who makes interest. 

We've not really had a fiscally conservative government since the Chretien Liberals in Canada.  Harper started off on the right track and then went off the rails during the financial crisis and then just never stopped spending after we'd recovered.  Trudeau and the "leftists" have carried on the same path, though it's likely getting worse.  

5 minutes ago, West said:

So who really benefits from the Liberal/NDP coalition? Certainly not who they think does. Though maybe the whole point is to actually make the rich richer

Pick your poison.  The Liberals and NDP cozy up to unions and we get screwed over by our grossly overpaid public sector, or the Conservatives screw us over by letting the telecoms and banks etc do what they please to us .  Neither party has been looking out for the middle-class private sector worker for a long, long time, and that's true provincially and federally.  

[West]

10 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

As usual, you mischaracterize the sentiment and dumb it down to absurdity, but let's look at it anyways.  

The Conservatives aren't really the party of the "rich".  

https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/election-insights-why-rich-canadians-are-all-in-for-the-liberals

That may have been true 10-15 years ago, it's not really true anymore.  

We've not really had a fiscally conservative government since the Chretien Liberals in Canada.  Harper started off on the right track and then went off the rails during the financial crisis and then just never stopped spending after we'd recovered.  Trudeau and the "leftists" have carried on the same path, though it's likely getting worse.  

Pick your poison.  The Liberals and NDP cozy up to unions and we get screwed over by our grossly overpaid public sector, or the Conservatives screw us over by letting the telecoms and banks etc do what they please to us .  Neither party has been looking out for the middle-class private sector worker for a long, long time, and that's true provincially and federally.  

Think we may actually agree on something. Surprising eh?

[Moonbox]

Not surprising.  Like I said before I've mostly supported the Conservatives my entire life.  If I'm going to get screwed by the public sector or by corporations, I'll usually choose the corporations.  Why?  Because raising corporate tax rates or introducing new competition laws or regulations is relatively easy.  Once a new public sector union contract is set, however, that's the new baseline.  You can't go back anymore.  

Where you and I disagree is on identity politics, ideology and hyperbole. 

[West]

2 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Where you and I disagree is on identity politics, ideology and hyperbole. 

Are you pro identity politics? 

Theres really no hyperbole. The actions of Trudeau and Co are as ridiculous as I make them out to be. I can see how an accurate description of Trudeaus actions can be seen as hyperbole.. they are that ridiculous

[Moonbox]

36 minutes ago, West said:

Are you pro identity politics? 

I think identity politics are a lazy heuristic for people who can't articulate their thoughts or debate reasonably.  

36 minutes ago, West said:

Theres really no hyperbole.

Sorry bud, but just saying that doesn't make it true.  When you rail about dictatorships you're being hyperbolic as you could be.  

[West]

18 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I think identity politics are a lazy heuristic for people who can't articulate their thoughts or debate reasonably.  

Sorry bud, but just saying that doesn't make it true.  When you rail about dictatorships you're being hyperbolic as you could be.  

1. All we have is language. Railing on the words someone uses isn't really a good debate either as it just goes round in a circle. 

"You can't use this word. Use that one. This word is mean and hurts feelies"

2. It is a dictatorship when you use ridiculous nonsense to shut down debate and protest. 

I'm not the only one saying that as evidenced by the spanking Trudeau took in Europe. 

Just because you agree with violent dispersal of protests doesn't mean we all do

Edited March 25, 2022 by West

[Nexii]

Social programs are good but unfortunately too much is politically driven rather than for actual good. That is to say I probably do lean left but the left is horribly inefficient at allocating money into social programs. Giving money to people to buy things like homes for example. Or continually funneling money into reservations which have no economic future.

The right in recent years hasn't been much better, shoveling money to corporations instead. At least the right would increase military spending, which isn't a total waste as that can do some good in the world.

The sickness I think is that government always wants to be seen as 'doing something' even if that something is usually a complete waste of money.

[Army Guy]

4 hours ago, Moonbox said:

 

We've not really had a fiscally conservative government since the Chretien Liberals in Canada.  Harper started off on the right track and then went off the rails during the financial crisis and then just never stopped spending after we'd recovered.  Trudeau and the "leftists" have carried on the same path, though it's likely getting worse.  

Pick your poison.  The Liberals and NDP cozy up to unions and we get screwed over by our grossly overpaid public sector, or the Conservatives screw us over by letting the telecoms and banks etc do what they please to us .  Neither party has been looking out for the middle-class private sector worker for a long, long time, and that's true provincially and federally.  

Just a question, did Harper not hand the liberals a surplus at the end of his term, ? My goggle search shows Yes, army guy they did...so they must have stopped something...

And your being very dishonest to just say Justins and his merry band have carried on the "same path".... tell me any party that has doubled our national deficit like Justin has, and is on course to triple the size of the deficit thats not on the same path, thats on a whole new highway..."On the same path" , your a funney guy...

Every Canadian has the same chance of working for the public service, very little special knowledge required....but most Canadians like to deliver pizzas and complain why they are not making billions.... like they are the only over paid workers in Canada, but hey nobody likes public service workers anyways... 

 

[Moonbox]

32 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Just a question, did Harper not hand the liberals a surplus at the end of his term, ? My goggle search shows Yes, army guy they did...so they must have stopped something...

They had one small budget surplus at the end, with six years of large deficits before that.    Yeeehaw.  

32 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

And your being very dishonest to just say Justins and his merry band have carried on the "same path"....

The path of budget deficits.  I don't like it any more than you do.  Nothing dishonest about that, but if you want to huff and pound at your keyboard go ahead.  

[Army Guy]

13 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

They had one small budget surplus at the end, with six years of large deficits before that.    Yeeehaw.  

The path of budget deficits.  I don't like it any more than you do.  Nothing dishonest about that, but if you want to huff and pound at your keyboard go ahead.  

So they managed to balance the budget prior to hand over.... Justin has been in just over 8 years his lowest deficit is 10 bil and has only grown form there....not on the same road, not the same country, not the same universe... doubling the federal deficit in one year is not the same as adding on a few bil...and now he is on track to almost add on another 2 to 300 bil...more than all the other Prime minster together.... 

[West]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

They had one small budget surplus at the end, with six years of large deficits before that.    Yeeehaw.  

The path of budget deficits.  I don't like it any more than you do.  Nothing dishonest about that, but if you want to huff and pound at your keyboard go ahead.  

During a recession ?. 

Canada came out of the recession probably the best out of any of the G7. 

Trudeau squandered it away on paying celebrities to support the vaxx, a vaxx pass system, and destruction of the energy industry to appease his buds in Europe.

[Moonbox]

15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

So they managed to balance the budget prior to hand over.... Justin has been in just over 8 years his lowest deficit is 10 bil and has only grown form there....not on the same road, not the same country, not the same universe...

Sure it is, because they took a balanced budget with large surpluses and erased 10 years of progress the Liberals made paying down the debt in ~3 years by diving deep into debt to support their minority governments.  

Going back to Harper, let's look at his ACTUAL deficit record, rather than the make-believe you're playing here.  

Harper ran massive deficits from 2008-2014 (~$137B worth) and spent like a drunken sailor throughout.  He had the financial crisis to contend with but that wasn't anywhere near the COVID-19 crisis in scale or impact.  

15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

doubling the federal deficit in one year is not the same as adding on a few bil...and now he is on track to almost add on another 2 to 300 bil...more than all the other Prime minster together.... 

The COVID-19 lockdowns were unprecedented and would have hobbled any government.  That being said, there's no doubt that Trudeau's abandoned any pretense of fiscal conservatism and we're headed for pain.  That he's mismanaging Canada's finance is no surprise given his father's appalling legacy.  Let's just not pretend that Harper was a good steward of the federal books.  He left us with big, fat debts and the transition from him to Trudeau has just been from bad to worse.  

[Army Guy]

2 hours ago, Moonbox said:

Sure it is, because they took a balanced budget with large surpluses and erased 10 years of progress the Liberals made paying down the debt in ~3 years by diving deep into debt to support their minority governments.  

Going back to Harper, let's look at his ACTUAL deficit record, rather than the make-believe you're playing here.  

Harper ran massive deficits from 2008-2014 (~$137B worth) and spent like a drunken sailor throughout.  He had the financial crisis to contend with but that wasn't anywhere near the COVID-19 crisis in scale or impact.  

The COVID-19 lockdowns were unprecedented and would have hobbled any government.  That being said, there's no doubt that Trudeau's abandoned any pretense of fiscal conservatism and we're headed for pain.  That he's mismanaging Canada's finance is no surprise given his father's appalling legacy.  Let's just not pretend that Harper was a good steward of the federal books.  He left us with big, fat debts and the transition from him to Trudeau has just been from bad to worse.  

Please lets not pretend the liberals are masters of paying down the deficit, we the tax payers paid the debt off, and it was painful, as most federal depts. where cut to the bone in the process....i won't mention that the liberal party has added by far the most to the deficit than any other party... you can hang a picture of the liberals' on your wall if you want to, to me, Chretien did all of that on the peoples backs...some hero... 

You can believe anything you want to, Harper did have the finical crises to deal with, and he did run deficits to over come it, and by the time he handed over the government he had a surplus, atleast he was some what concerned with the budget and showed constraint in bringing it under control....his massive deficit as you describe it was 137 bil,  Justin ran a Mammoth size deficit of over 450 bil to date, with plans of more than 2 to 300 bil more, thats not counting what the NDP have planed.. 

"More than any other PM todate , even when combined they still do not compare... is Justin going to hand over a surplus...not on your life"...

And save the crying about and the pandemic was a much worse event ... the media has already reported that only 1/2 of the 450 bil can be accounted for by actual spending to keep people and business afloat, I'd ask you where the other 1/2 went but if the liberals don't know you surely will not...nor will they release that data... ahh whats 200 bil anyways, it was for a good cause, one would have to omit throwing money at a problem is never the best option. This government will not be remembered as how well it handled the pandemic, that is fact...

[Moonbox]

29 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Please lets not pretend the liberals are masters of paying down the deficit

Yet they're the only party in the last 30 years that has.  They were also the primary cause of our ballooning deficit in the late 70's and early 80's to begin with, so it's not so easy to throw labels around.  It's almost like this is a nuanced issue that requires thoughtful consideration rather than angry black-and-white party politics.  

29 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

You can believe anything you want to, Harper did have the finical crises to deal with, and he did run deficits to over come it, and by the time he handed over the government he had a surplus,

That's fine, but you can't offer up the financial crisis as an excuse for Harper and then highlight the Trudeau Liberal deficits during the COVID-19 global lockdowns, which were orders of magnitude more damaging than anything Harper had to deal with.  

29 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

And save the crying about and the pandemic was a much worse event ... the media has already reported that only 1/2 of the 450 bil can be accounted for by actual spending to keep people and business afloat, I'd ask you where the other 1/2 went but if the liberals don't know you surely will not

Why don't you provide the citation for that and maybe we can discuss it?  No offense but I'm not really too confident in the off-hand numbers you provide here.  

At any rate, there's no arguing that Justin hasn't gone off the deep end and that coming out of COVID-19 he's not going to blow a hole in the bottom of our hull.  It looks like we're getting deep deficits to support social programs and that's always a recipe for disaster.  

[Moonbox]

On 3/25/2022 at 4:34 PM, West said:

1. All we have is language. Railing on the words someone uses isn't really a good debate either as it just goes round in a circle. 

"You can't use this word. Use that one. This word is mean and hurts feelies"

We have language, and some people are good at communicating reasonably like adults.  Others never learn to get over their adolescent tantrums and figure that ANGRY EMPHATIC LANGUAGE substitutes for proper reasoning.  

On 3/25/2022 at 4:34 PM, West said:

I'm not the only one saying that as evidenced by the spanking Trudeau took in Europe. 

Trudeau's spanking in Europe was a nothing-burger.  These weren't notable European politicians, they were two-bit back-seaters trying to score points at home and the freedumb convoy was a visible part of the day's news cycle.   

On 3/25/2022 at 4:34 PM, West said:

Just because you agree with violent dispersal of protests doesn't mean we all do

I don't, but I also don't buy into your wild exaggerations and dumb conspiracy theories.  Believe it or not it's possible to agree with you on some things without buying into all of your raving nonsense.   

Edited March 26, 2022 by Moonbox

[West]

12 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

We have language, and some people are good at communicating reasonably like adults.  Others never learn to get over their adolescent tantrums and figure that ANGRY EMPHATIC LANGUAGE substitutes for proper reasoning.  

Trudeau's spanking in Europe was a nothing-burger.  These weren't notable European politicians, they were two-bit back-seaters trying to score points at home and the freedumb convoy was a visible part of the day's news cycle.   

I don't, but I also don't buy into your wild exaggerations and dumb conspiracy theories.  Believe it or not it's possible to agree with you on some things without buying into all of your raving nonsense.   

I'm convinced that your liberal arts major has gotten in your way of common sense. Intellectual arrogance is what it's commonly referred to. 

Fundamentally, you will take any "expert" at face value. I don't blame you as education often gets in the way of asking appropriate questions as more often than not you are taught to regurgitate nonsense from a textbook or a university professor. 

I assume you've never lived cross culturally. My assessment of Trudeau is because I have lived in places where war has ravaged the country. When I call something a "dictatorship" I don't do so lightly.. Trudeau's language ("should we tolerate these people"? Perpetual blaming of the other side etc.) is all how those things tend to start.. then comes "minor" forms of oppression followed by people like you saying "oh well at least they aren't killing people blah blah blah". 

While I hope we don't get to the same place, we are on a slippery slope and should really be calling out the nonsense as it comes up, not measure it in degrees of atrocity.

Just my two cents...

[Army Guy]

48 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

Yet they're the only party in the last 30 years that has.  They were also the primary cause of our ballooning deficit in the late 70's and early 80's to begin with, so it's not so easy to throw labels around.  It's almost like this is a nuanced issue that requires thoughtful consideration rather than angry black-and-white party politics.  

That's fine, but you can't offer up the financial crisis as an excuse for Harper and then highlight the Trudeau Liberal deficits during the COVID-19 global lockdowns, which were orders of magnitude more damaging than anything Harper had to deal with.  

Why don't you provide the citation for that and maybe we can discuss it?  No offense but I'm not really too confident in the off-hand numbers you provide here.  

At any rate, there's no arguing that Justin hasn't gone off the deep end and that coming out of COVID-19 he's not going to blow a hole in the bottom of our hull.  It looks like we're getting deep deficits to support social programs and that's always a recipe for disaster.  

If you read your source you provided it included in that deficit repayment 3 PM's Chretien, Mulroney, and the first 2 years of Harper , it was your source not mine...

The key here is, and what most are saying is that we did not have to spend all that funding to over come the pandemic, had the plan been better prepared, and a little thought put into it , instead of being reactionary to everything...a lot of promises were made that still has not come to fruition, like making PPE in Canada forever, making our own medical equipment, and bringing a medication manufacture capacity here in Canada...very little has happened on those frons in the last 3 years...

I'll give you the source , but i think it is pretty much self explanatory.

My bad my original source was a little off todate Justin has added 472.2 bil to the nations deficit...and 154 bil in additional spending not including his 78 bil for defense, and 49 bil for 2 of the NDP promises...so another 127 bil....like i said Justin promised more than 2 to the NDP there is a list of which is not costed.... so far he is on track to spend just over 753 bil...and it is only going to get worse....now tell me he is comparable to Harper...

There is always a bottom to the hull, you can not spend like a lunatic and then say there is not going to be any consequences. Greece is a good example of what not to do for economic policies...and social programs...and since we can not see into the future or ability to respond to the next crises what ever that is, is not looking good at the moment... but hey I'm already retired, home paid for, still young enough to work if i decide... spend your asses off... but if i was a young buck i would be concerned, a lot concerned..it is your future he is playing with...

Quote

 

Instead, he delivered annual deficits of $19 billion in both 2016 and 2017, $14 billion in 2018 and $39.4 billion in 2019 — all before the pandemic hit in early 2020.

Today, the Trudeau government no longer gives any date for eliminating the federal deficit the prime minister originally said would be gone by 2019-20, with a $1 billion surplus in that year.

Because of new spending during the pandemic, the Trudeau government now pegs the federal deficit at $327.7 billion for 2020-21; $144.5 billion for the 2021-22 fiscal year which ends March 31; $58.4 billion in 2022-23; $43.9 billion in 2023-24; $29.1 billion in 2024-25; $22.7 billion in 2025-26 and $13.1 billion in 2026-27.

Canada’s combined federal debt — the total of all previous deficits plus interest — went over $1 trillion for the first time in 2020-21 during the first year of the pandemic and is now projected to increase to $1.36 trillion by 2026-27.

 

GOLDSTEIN: Trudeau's runaway spending hiked Canada's debt $160 billion before pandemic hit — report  | Toronto Sun

Quote

 

new spending 

The Liberals pledged C$78 billion in stimulus over three years during last year's election campaign. The NDP's platform had priced a national drug plan at C$38.5 billion over five years and C$11 billion for dental coverage.

 

Canada PM's deal with opposition party raises deficit, inflation alarm bells | Reuters

[Army Guy]

53 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

 

Trudeau's spanking in Europe was a nothing-burger.  These weren't notable European politicians, they were two-bit back-seaters trying to score points at home and the freedumb convoy was a visible part of the day's news cycle.   

 

You think becasue they were not there that they did not hear or see it,it's on just about every media outlet around the globe... try some of the global media sites and then tell me how well Justin was received, in countries like India, Australia, to name a few... Has any of the countries leaders from which these MP come from said sorry about our MP they are idiots....... their silence in telling... just not to you...as ANY other country come out in support of Justin, again silence is telling...

Not sure why so many Canadians think our reputation within the world is still intact, justin has worked so hard to fuck all that up...if you want i can give you a list complete with sources if you need, but i think we are on the same page...... not sure why you would think other wise... but i agree this stunt was just the icing on the cake and really did not mean a whole lot... i think they said what the other leaders politely chose not to.. Justin your a disgrace....In the long run he is our disgrace, one we picked, not once but 3 times,  we should be so proud...

[Nationalist]

What do liberal politicians really care about? Your typical liberal voter would say liberals care about the poor and the disparity between the rich and poor. That social spending can help level things out for the poor. But if you examine the actual results of liberal policies...it looks more like a slow, creeping March to mass population dependence on government. 

Who created the baby making business? Has anything liberals have done...aside from healthcare...really been a benefit to poor people and the population overall?

Not really. So...what DO liberal politicians care about?

Power.

[eyeball]

7 hours ago, Moonbox said:

 He left us with big, fat debts and the transition from him to Trudeau has just been from bad to worse.  

Do they get any credit for attracting  investors to Canada's money laundering industry?

[Moonbox]

I don't know anything about that.  

[Moonbox]

3 hours ago, Army Guy said:

You think becasue they were not there that they did not hear or see it,it's on just about every media outlet around the globe... try some of the global media sites and then tell me how well Justin was received, in countries like India, Australia, to name a few... Has any of the countries leaders from which these MP come from said sorry about our MP they are idiots....... their silence in telling... just not to you...as ANY other country come out in support of Justin, again silence is telling...

Justin's made a fool out of himself internationally on virtually every stage.  You don't have to convince me that's not the case.  Him showing up with his family in India wearing cringe Bollywood costumes would be like Narendra Modi visiting Canada in lumberjack-wear complete with coontail courer-de-bois hat.  The guy's a complete joke.   

That the clowntown fringe of the EU's two-bit nations are criticizing him isn't in the least bit remarkable .  Who the hell cares what some bald and fat mouth-breather from Romania says, or what the illustrious representatives from Croatia or Finland's right wing say while they're trying to score cheap points back home?  Nobody.

Canada's reputation around the world is fine, Justin's embarrassing performances aside.  He's not taken seriously and is considered a lightweight, but to think our international reputation is in shambles over the Freedumb Convoy or his frequent cringe-inducing moments forgets how unremarkable he is compared to Donald Trump and his carnival of foreign relations disaster.  

[eyeball]

23 minutes ago, Moonbox said:

I don't know anything about that.  

Seems nobody does.  It's a taboo topic apparently.

[Moonbox]

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

If you read your source you provided it included in that deficit repayment 3 PM's Chretien, Mulroney, and the first 2 years of Harper , it was your source not mine...

Harper's first two years amounted to nothing.  He erased nearly ten years of Liberal debt reductions by the end of his term.  

4 hours ago, Army Guy said:

There is always a bottom to the hull, you can not spend like a lunatic and then say there is not going to be any consequences. Greece is a good example of what not to do for economic policies...and social programs...and since we can not see into the future or ability to respond to the next crises what ever that is, is not looking good at the moment... but hey I'm already retired, home paid for, still young enough to work if i decide... spend your asses off... but if i was a young buck i would be concerned, a lot concerned..it is your future he is playing with...

You and I can both agree on this.  Trudeau's not a good steward of our public books and after his father's legacy I am not surprised by his behavior.  Let's just not rewrite history and pretend that Harper did a good job either.  He spent a lot of money to prop up his minority governments that he didn't need to.  His tax policy was bad (virtually every economist would agree that income tax reductions would have been more helpful than GST/PST and he did not leave things better off than when he started.