Democratic renewal

[myata]

or slow downward spiral all the way to the third world. Mexico if not outright China. Only an urgent democratic renewal, redesigning and reengineering democratic system and institutions for effectiveness, efficiency ability to work and solve problems of the citizens could stop the trend, then possibly begin reversing it. But there are formidable obstacles on this way: an entrenched, entitled and disconnected political system that is perfectly fine as it is, complete with automatic annual rises out of public's pocket; and an indifferent, passive population or a large part of it.

Can we, in this century continue to vest forget success, just some continuation of normality in the abilities, or even basic sanity of a single individual? People elsewhere learned the answer over the centuries not always easy way but here we go, again.

Is there still a chance and avenue for a renewal and reconstruction of the democracy by the people and for them? Or the country is doomed to the predetermined trajectory?

[Jack9000]

the country is going to be fine there will be a election in 18-24 months like usual with minority governments and life will go on  in this democratic country   .

[myata]

$2,000 monthly small flat with 4% annual inflation and $33K median income. Normal is in the eye... of an entitled minority MP. Great that it's working for some... for how much longer? maybe shouldn't hold your breath.

[Michael Hardner]

If you want democratic renewal, start with our institutions that support discussion and debate.

Remove the moneyed interests skewing the discussion, and eliminate foreign influence to start.

[myata]

18 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

If you want democratic renewal, start with our institutions that support discussion and debate.

Except there isn't any. Debates of entitled representatives-employees have no meaning and only an empty imitation of a working democracy. Starting would mean creating anew.

[blackbird]

7 hours ago, myata said:

$2,000 monthly small flat with 4% annual inflation and $33K median income. Normal is in the eye... of an entitled minority MP. Great that it's working for some... for how much longer? maybe shouldn't hold your breath.

Maybe try life in the Dominican Republic where 20% of the population live on $2 a day.  Or their next door neighbour, Haiti, where the number of people living on nothing may be far higher.  Canada has one of the highest standards of living in the world, vast opportunities for anyone who wants to make an effort and work for something.  We also likely have more social assistance programs than anywhere else in the world.  Jesus said the poor would always be with us.  I',m not sure how you change that?  Karl Marx had an idea but his ideas created misery for billions of people in the world in the USSR, China, and other places.  What would you propose as the solution to create your utopia?   Fascism or Communism or Socialism?  Take your pick. There is no answer and no utopia possible in this world.  We just have to learn to live with it.  Donate to your soup kitchen.

Edited February 20, 2022 by blackbird

[blackbird]

11 minutes ago, myata said:

Except there isn't any. Debates of entitled representatives-employees have no meaning and only an empty imitation of a working democracy. Starting would mean creating anew.

How would you propose to change the system and what kind of system would you like?  If we change the system, what guarantee would there be that we would be better off?  In a world of disorder, totalitarian systems, corruption, and evil, how do you think things would be better if we change the system we have?

[myata]

15 minutes ago, blackbird said:

disorder, totalitarian systems, corruption, and evil

We already have all of that - did you notice? Can it be worse I can't tell this is already edging on the third world with a blatant combination of entitlement, detachment, patent absence of accountability and incompetence; and it will get worse if nothing is done now.

Edited February 20, 2022 by myata

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, myata said:

Starting would mean creating anew.

I think that I said that: 'start'

[Michael Hardner]

55 minutes ago, blackbird said:

... how do you think things would be better if we change the system we have?

Good question... Maybe ask what is wrong with the current system, what is most people's main concern?

[Michael Hardner]

41 minutes ago, myata said:

We already have all of that - did you notice? Can it be worse I can't tell this is already edging on the third world with a blatant combination of entitlement, detachment, patent absence of accountability and incompetence; and it will get worse if nothing is done now.

As an older person, this reeks of lack of perspective.  If you want to get critical mass to support actual reform you going to need to be specific about what you think is wrong, and get other people to agree on those specifics.

"Everything is shit" is just a moan and a wail.  You want to start by saying that fine, but you need to back it up with some things that are convincing. I think the main problem is that people are speaking past each other, there's no cohesiveness or unity

[Michael Hardner]

Maybe start with what we truly value on the whole and generally:

-Principled living
-Criticism of government and institutions

-Caring for those in need 

Like that...

[myata]

We already have a totally disconnected, self-absorbed, rewarding itself and paying to itself public management system. It doesn't need to hear any protests it doesn't even need little people only their taxes, please go now. This is the third world right here, political and conceptual. The physical and economical will follow, necessarily and unavoidably it always comes with this kind of management. The first bells are already ringing - right there in your window.

I wonder is it clear to the citizens who are still conscious here that we won't survive like that, to any decent standard of a contemporary free society, the chance is zero? Do we realize that the task is formidable and if nothing is done the default outcome is at hand already, not even on the wall.

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, myata said:

1. We already have a totally disconnected, self-absorbed, rewarding itself and paying to itself public management system. It doesn't need to hear any protests it doesn't even need little people only their taxes, please go now. This is the third world right here, political and conceptual. The physical and economical will follow, necessarily and unavoidably it always comes with this kind of management. The first bells are already ringing - right there in your window.

2. I wonder is it clear to the citizens who are still conscious here that we won't survive like that, to any decent standard of a contemporary free society, the chance is zero? Do we realize that the task is formidable and if nothing is done the default outcome is at hand already, not even on the wall.

1.  You're emoting.  You're punching your pillow here.  It's fine, but unless you are an MLK type orator addressing a crowd it's probably enough to say less.

2. If the task is formidable then why not stop with the poetry and talk about specifics ?  What do we have in common?  What do we need?  How do you get people behind it?

 

[myata]

It's no secret. First there needs to be a new party, or a very recent one. None of the status quo are interested no point in wasting time see Justine's "electoral reform".

Secondly, a broad discussion with the citizens to define the democratic renewal agenda. One of the items I deem necessary at this time, given the entrenched tradition of carelessness and total absence of accountability is to remove the indemnity of public officials for egregious and deliberate violations of citizens rights. Like violently suppressing lawful peaceful protest of citizens, indefinite if it needs to be, citizens decide that not the governments. Including constitutional changes if need be. What kind of a democracy is it that cannot be updated and modernized by the citizens? Quite obviously: a toy, painted one, not real.

Thirdly, a majority government or a coalition, on condition of full, unconditional support of the agenda. And then the work begins. Accountability, checks and controls, cancelling the culture of detachment and entitlement, transparency, efficiency, ongoing improvement. If citizens don't own their democracy then the governments will run them. One or the other, no other choices and here's yet another proof.

[Moonbox]

Except there's a number of problems with your thesis. 

First, folks don't agree that the system is as broken as you think, and then even if they do they don't agree with you on what is broken or the causes.  

You seem to think that you provided an answer to Michael's last question, but you didn't.  You once again typed up a bunch of verbose rhetoric that amounted to nothing more than "Everything is bad.  We need to do stuff to make it NOT bad"

 

[blackbird]

4 hours ago, myata said:

We already have all of that - did you notice? Can it be worse I can't tell this is already edging on the third world with a blatant combination of entitlement, detachment, patent absence of accountability and incompetence; and it will get worse if nothing is done now.

We agree the world is a corrupt place with much evil.  You are the making the claim that Canada is a very bad place and you don't like the system.  So I asked you what is the alternative?  What would you offer in place of what we have?  How we get change the system?  What exactly are you suggesting be done and how?

Edited February 20, 2022 by blackbird

[myata]

4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

How we get change the system?  What exactly are you suggesting be done and how?

You are clearly not reading answers so does it make sense to ask questions?

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, myata said:

You are clearly not reading answers so does it make sense to ask questions?

You are the one making the allegation that our system is broken and needs to be changed.  So I ask you again to explain how our system is broken and what would you suggest we do to fix it?

[myata]

Just now, blackbird said:

So I ask you again

No please don't ask any more because you are not reading and there's no point in wasting any time it's just silly and pointless.

[blackbird]

1 minute ago, myata said:

No please don't ask any more because you are not reading and there's no point in wasting any time it's just silly and pointless.

No, I asked you a legitimate question.  You created this topic but now don't want to answer a question about it.  Figures.  So you simply want to rant about our system of government and don't want to engage in serious discussion.  You don't want anyone to question your claims.  You are frivolously wasting everyone's time on here.

[myata]

Back to the topic of democratic renewal.

[Michael Hardner]

Maya proposed something.  Comment on this to start I say.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, myata said:

1. First there needs to be a new party, or a very recent one.  

2. Secondly, a broad discussion with the citizens to define the democratic renewal agenda.

3. One of the items I deem necessary at this time, given the entrenched tradition of carelessness and total absence of accountability is to remove the indemnity of public officials for egregious and deliberate violations of citizens rights. Like violently suppressing lawful peaceful protest of citizens, indefinite if it needs to be, citizens decide that not the governments. Including constitutional changes if need be.  

4. Thirdly, a majority government or a coalition, on condition of full, unconditional support of the agenda.

1. 2. I agree with these, but I would switch the order and say maybe more than one Party comes out of it.

3. Why have an Emergency Measures act at all if you put in a clause saying that people directed to enforce it could be charged layer based on a legal judgement that hasn't begun yet?  That makes no sense.

4. There has to be an election though.

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

You are the one making the allegation that our system is broken and needs to be changed.  So I ask you again to explain how our system is broken and what would you suggest we do to fix it?

The entire system is not broken, but there are huge cracks in almost every facet of it. I'm sure that it stares all Canadians in the face everyday, but what is also true is nobody is in a hurry to do anything about it, or the majority don't really care ...when was the last time they had a meaningful debate in parliament over a major topic like our health care system and how to fix it... i had to stop watching CPAC becasue it was to frustrating , there is no debate just trading insults, the divide is to great.