Heart and cancer surgeries are being cancelled because beds are filled with those who chose not to be vaccinated. Unacceptable.

[CITIZEN_2015]

Totally frustrated that those who choose to not be vaccinated for Covid are filling up the hospital beds and those who are very sick with heart disease and cancer and other major illnesses of no fault of their own have their surgeries  cancelled or postponed. Wrong people are refused treatment in my view.

[Army Guy]

We are talking about fellow Canadians right, or do we have 2 classes of people right now. Vaccinated, and Unvaccinated, both own Canadians passports, both pay taxes, both have families to feed, plus we have already put restrictions in place for the unvaccinated...they have already been taken off major organ transplant lists, removed from jobs, forced to move provinces, unable to claim unemployment which they paid into, unable to collect any of the feds benefit packages. What else do you want here... These people are Canadians, and if we can treat them like this, how would we treat outsiders... And we as a nation wonder why we have a problem in most government organization with inclusivity, or treating everyone with equal rights...rights that don't get superseded by a vaccination. 

I can remember having this same discussion over Omar i wanted to ship that scumbag back to Afghanistan, i was told he will always be Canadian and he deserves 10 million dollars... now we have taken away jobs, homes, livelihoods, needed medical procedures, from outstanding Canadians because they refuse to get a needle...  the other guy was a F888ing terrorist and he got paid... 

[blackbird]

On 1/5/2022 at 4:52 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Totally frustrated that those who choose to not be vaccinated for Covid are filling up the hospital beds and those who are very sick with heart disease and cancer and other major illnesses of no fault of their own have their surgeries  cancelled or postponed. Wrong people are refused treatment in my view.

According to news, thousands of heart and cancer patients have died waiting across the country.

[myata]

I recall an old song from the Soviet Germany times before collapse going something like this: "all is going according to the plan. Always to the plan boom boom" and so on. Getting there.

[OftenWrong]

It's a pity they run our hospitals like a zero-sum game. We had more capacity in our hospitals 20-30 years ago than we do now.

Ontario ranks one of the worst health care systems in the free world. The Auditor general said some bad things about Ontario's health care system and it's level of readiness. It was already a disaster in the year leading up to Covid.

This did not happen overnight, my friends.

So, why don't you learn what the real problem is before shouting your big mouths off. You haters really need to be told. If I were not so polite, I'd tell you to stick that hate right up your ass.

You and Mr. Trudeua

 

[myata]

31 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It's a pity they run our hospitals like a zero-sum game

And again, why wouldn't they? What would be the cause to not, not to, and the incentive? When a lion is fed up to the gills it doesn't run hunting precious energy needs to be preserved a law of nature. And this bureaucracy has kept itself in this state (with its own, why pretend? dough) for many decades. Honestly I would be surprised if it was different. It would have been a rarest of exceptions, entirely unnatural.

[CITIZEN_2015]

15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

We are talking about fellow Canadians right, or do we have 2 classes of people right now. Vaccinated, and Unvaccinated, both own Canadians passports, both pay taxes, both have families to feed, plus we have already put restrictions in place for the unvaccinated...they have already been taken off major organ transplant lists, removed from jobs, forced to move provinces, unable to claim unemployment which they paid into, unable to collect any of the feds benefit packages. What else do you want here... These people are Canadians, and if we can treat them like this, how would we treat outsiders... And we as a nation wonder why we have a problem in most government organization with inclusivity, or treating everyone with equal rights...rights that don't get superseded by a vaccination. 

I can remember having this same discussion over Omar i wanted to ship that scumbag back to Afghanistan, i was told he will always be Canadian and he deserves 10 million dollars... now we have taken away jobs, homes, livelihoods, needed medical procedures, from outstanding Canadians because they refuse to get a needle...  the other guy was a F888ing terrorist and he got paid... 

These people are taking up the hospital beds by making wrong stubborn choices and hence depriving vulnerable Canadians from accessing much needed health care and surgeries causing many Canadian deaths. The fact that they carry Canadian passports does not give them the right. If I hold Canadian passport does not give me the right to cross red traffic lights or drive drunk and endanger other Canadian lives. In every democracy there is a limit to free action, free speech and freedom in general and the red line is crossed as soon as other lives are put in jeopardy. The red lines are clearly crossed here when it comes to refusing covid vaccination without a medical reason.

[Winston]

37 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

These people are taking up the hospital beds by making wrong stubborn choices and hence depriving vulnerable Canadians from accessing much needed health care and surgeries causing many Canadian deaths.

Question: statistically are these people in the hospital due to COVID or with COVID? There is a major difference between the two conditions.

The general public is not responsible for maintaining the health care system. There are a number of high paid individuals who chose to take a position. Vaccines are not a guarantee and do not prevent hospitalizations or ICU cases.

 

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 minute ago, Winston said:

Question: statistically are these people in the hospital due to COVID or with COVID? There is a major difference between the two conditions.

The general public is not responsible for maintaining the health care system. There are a number of high paid individuals who chose to take a position. Vaccines are not a guarantee and do not prevent hospitalizations or ICU cases.

 

An overwhelming majority are in hospital due to Covid and are unvaccinated.

Yes, vaccines prevent serious illness and hospitalization in overwhelming majority of cases. And that is what is taking our hospital beds cancelling much needed surgeries for innocent others. The number of hospitalizations not the number of cases or infections which Omicron can evade.

[Faramir]

Health care systems are built on a rationing.  That has been a factor in Canada for decades now.  It is silly for example that BC only has a few hundred ICU beds out of a population of 5 million.  The system was always one pandemic away from being over whelmed.

[Winston]

9 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

An overwhelming majority are in hospital due to Covid and are unvaccinated.

Yes, vaccines prevent serious illness and hospitalization in overwhelming majority of cases. And that is what is taking our hospital beds cancelling much needed surgeries for innocent others. The number of hospitalizations not the number of cases or infections which Omicron can evade.

What statistic shows that people in the hospital are in the hospital due to covid, rather than due to initial conditions?

No, I think you flipped the data, as the data shows there are more vaccinated hospitalizations than the unvaccinated.

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations

[myata]

13 minutes ago, Faramir said:

The system was always one pandemic away from being over whelmed.

Right. Regardless of how much the public throws at it, and how much managers and CEOs rake. Not their business, ok. What is though? Jumping and crying dramatic shows in the media? Isn't it like, another genre? Or the correct question, shouldn't it be?

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

These people are taking up the hospital beds by making wrong stubborn choices and hence depriving vulnerable Canadians from accessing much needed health care and surgeries causing many Canadian deaths. The fact that they carry Canadian passports does not give them the right. If I hold Canadian passport does not give me the right to cross red traffic lights or drive drunk and endanger other Canadian lives. In every democracy there is a limit to free action, free speech and freedom in general and the red line is crossed as soon as other lives are put in jeopardy. The red lines are clearly crossed here when it comes to refusing covid vaccination without a medical reason.

Yes they are taking up beds, beds their tax dollars helped pay for....and you continue with this stubborn choice route, you have no idea why they have made this decision, nor do you care. Just that they are wrong and they should pay some how for it...

There are laws and policies put in place to limit those actions, and in this case those decisions are left to our medical professional who issued a blanket statement to cover their own asses, by staying all those nessicary medical cases, instead and leaving bed space only available to covid patients.

I want to point out here that the decision to just cancel all major life saving surgeries was made by medical professionals. without any form of triage or on a individual basis...they made it without even trying to save lives...  meaning it was a medical decision to leave these people unattended with out medical treatments. You can not tell me that once these people reached critical levels they could not have been admitted...that is what triage is all about. 

[myata]

This post only serves to demonstrate the results of irresponsible and self-serving propaganda, pumping a dangerous mix of fear, ignorance and hatred. Not like it has not been demonstrated before, with sore and sad outcomes but if and when something serves a bureaucrat and they are free to do it, no checks, oversight or consequences, what is there to stop them from doing it? Of course, for the greater good and your own good, as it always was. Please surprise.

[CITIZEN_2015]

1 hour ago, Winston said:

What statistic shows that people in the hospital are in the hospital due to covid, rather than due to initial conditions?

No, I think you flipped the data, as the data shows there are more vaccinated hospitalizations than the unvaccinated.

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations

It is YOU who is flipping the data. Seriously you make flawed statements like this!!!!!!

[Aristides]

1 hour ago, Winston said:

What statistic shows that people in the hospital are in the hospital due to covid, rather than due to initial conditions?

No, I think you flipped the data, as the data shows there are more vaccinated hospitalizations than the unvaccinated.

https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations

It shows more unvaccinated in ICU's. Considering that there are more unvaccinated in ICU's and the unvaccinated represent less than 15% of the population, that is a pretty damming statistic.

[Winston]

17 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

It is YOU who is flipping the data. Seriously you make flawed statements like this!!!!!!

 

Hospitalization cases:

Unvaccinated cases 441

Partially vaccinated cases 100

Fully vaccinated cases 1327

Says that right in the data

Edited January 7, 2022 by Winston

[Winston]

11 minutes ago, Aristides said:

It shows more unvaccinated in ICU's. Considering that there are more unvaccinated in ICU's and the unvaccinated represent less than 15% of the population, that is a pretty damming statistic.

Correct it shows 13 more unvaccinated ICU cases, now the question is of those people in ICU how many are there with COVID vs due to COVID? Hence my original question. 

[Aristides]

1 minute ago, Winston said:

Correct it shows 13 more unvaccinated ICU cases, now the question is of those people in ICU how many are there with COVID vs due to COVID? Hence my original question. 

The link you provided specifically says COVID cases. Stop making shit up. 

[Winston]

1 minute ago, Aristides said:

The link you provided specifically says COVID cases. Stop making shit up. 

Cases of COVID, not reason in hospital. Ie Did they arrive to the hospital because of covid, or did they arrive at the hospital from a car accident and tested positive? Do we know this? 

[Aristides]

What are you trying to do, apply different criteria to different status? Are you saying that all the unvaccinated in ICU are there for non Covid reasons and all the vaccinated people are there because of Covid? If you are playing those stupid games why post any links if you are just going to rewrite them to suit your own agenda.

[Aristides]

Are the unvaccinated so unhealthy, so old and have so many co-morbidities that they wind up in ICU'S at a rate multiple times more than the vaccinated?

[CITIZEN_2015]

16 minutes ago, Winston said:

 

Hospitalization cases:

Unvaccinated cases 441

Partially vaccinated cases 100

Fully vaccinated cases 1327

Says that right in the data

Link please as where it comes from. Also you re forgetting that the number of filly vaccinated people is over 8 times unvaccinated (82% versus 10%). 

[Winston]

10 minutes ago, CITIZEN_2015 said:

Link please as where it comes from. Also you re forgetting that the number of filly vaccinated people is over 8 times unvaccinated (82% versus 10%). 

Same link I sent previous https://covid-19.ontario.ca/data/hospitalizations#vaccine-status-data

My argument is that both vaccinated and unvaccinated are hospitalized at different values, with higher vaccinated hospitalizations. The ICU numbers are nearly equal as well. Thus, your argument that its the unvaccinated that are the issue is not based on the data.  

Edited January 7, 2022 by Winston

[Winston]

11 minutes ago, Aristides said:

What are you trying to do, apply different criteria to different status? Are you saying that all the unvaccinated in ICU are there for non Covid reasons and all the vaccinated people are there because of Covid? If you are playing those stupid games why post any links if you are just going to rewrite them to suit your own agenda.

I am asking questions, simple questions, questions that should easily be answered. I am suggesting we do not know if someone entering the hospital is entering because of covid rather than entering with covid. 

For example, I might test positive with covid, 2 days later I get a hip infection due to a prosthetic implant. Is this a covid hospitalization or a hip replacement hospitalization?

Agenda? I want real data, preferably with reason for hospitalization, age and any comorbidities, thus finding the risk to the general public.