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Pandemic will likely get worse in the fall and winter but no more lockdowns.


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46 minutes ago, Argus said:

Conservatives believe in law and order. You don't believe me? Ask one if you ever meet a conservative looking in the window at one of your alt-right meetings.

I respect your conviction that we should be following science and policies that protect public health.  I just question whether persistent restrictions and vaccine passports are going to have the best overall health outcomes when considering non-Covid health problems, mental health, financial losses to businesses and individuals, and a protracted suspension of individual liberties that threatens liberal democracy.

Conservativism tends to emphasize individual responsibility over state intervention.  I can see why mandatory vaccination has value in certain fields, but when we start talking about mandatory boosters that may be endless, we seem to be taking all health discretion away from people.  We don’t all have the same bodies or predispositions.

I think that the costs of some of these measures are simply too high, and I don’t just mean financially.   What kind of society do we want to live in?  If we don’t transition out of restrictions, then what’s the incentive for any of these measures, to live lives of seclusion under heavy bureaucracy and without individual responsibility? It’s a mindless and inhuman ethos.  Endless vaccines on top of masks and other restrictions, for what?   Our hospitals are quiet.  A certain amount of death and illness are part of life.

Opening up means living with a certain amount of risk. There will be more cases and deaths as we do so and we have to soldier through it or else the virus has really won. The antibodies have to spread to extinguish or reduce the viral spread, but we’re unlikely to eliminate it. Vaccination, good health, better treatments, and more personal responsibility should be the way forward in my opinion.  People will need to be well-informed and extra care must be taken by the vulnerable if vaccination isn’t enough or can’t be given.

Masking in schools is continuing even though the risk of death to children is lower than the flu.  How long does this continue?  How long do restrictions continue?  The science isn’t always clear and much of what we choose to do depends on our values.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I respect your conviction that we should be following science and policies that protect public health.  I just question whether persistent restrictions and vaccine passports are going to have the best overall health outcomes when considering non-Covid health problems, mental health, financial losses to businesses and individuals, and a protracted suspension of individual liberties that threatens liberal democracy.

We wouldn't need government pressure if it weren't for the anti-vaxxers. Nor would we need to worry about lockdowns.  Pressuring these people into getting vaccinated is designed to ensure we don't need any more lockdowns - which I agree cause enormous financial hardships and problems for mental health.

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Conservativism tends to emphasize individual responsibility over state intervention.

Yes, but where that's not workable then there are laws. Personal responsibility wouldn't require stop signs at isolated roads because people would slow down and ensure the way was clear before proceeding. But too many idiots means we have to force the issue. Just like we have to do checks on trucks so that the idiots who run those big monsters with bald tires and rusting brakes are taken off the roads. Same goes for a thousand other ways government can't just rely on personal responsibility.

Some people, you see, don't have any.

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Opening up means living with a certain amount of risk.

Sure. And we are open in areas where vaccination rates are high. And will stay that way. Only the anti-vaxxers threaten that.

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Masking in schools is continuing even though the risk of death to children is lower than the flu. 

It's more the risk that these children will pass it on to others who are more vulnerable to serious infections. The high number of asymptomatic people who can nevertheless pass on the disease is a major complicating problem with covid.

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9 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

Major protests in Montreal as well. And in Germany, and Australia, and so on, and so on.

Hopefully coming soon to a province near you.

;)

Montrealers are always rioting too. 

See?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/history/2021/08/10/montreal-vaccine-riot-smallpox/

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3 minutes ago, Argus said:

 

Sure. And we are open in areas where vaccination rates are high. And will stay that way. Only the anti-vaxxers threaten that.

It's more the risk that these children will pass it on to others who are more vulnerable to serious infections. The high number of asymptomatic people who can nevertheless pass on the disease is a major complicating problem with covid.

But restrictions are continuing in some parts of the country with the highest vaccination rates.  If we stop worrying about the anti-vaxxers, who are you worried will be vulnerable to infection?   The vaccinated?  Children?   My point is that at some point we have to open up completely and accept the risks because there will always be risk.  It’s a question of degree.  I think we’re at an acceptable level of risk or at the very least governments should set a reasonable milestone in vaccinations.  It has to be a number we can actually hit reasonably soon.  I mean sure, governments can oppress people, but that’s what they’d be doing if restrictions persist.  

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Just now, Zeitgeist said:

But restrictions are continuing in some parts of the country with the highest vaccination rates.  If we stop worrying about the anti-vaxxers, who are you worried will be vulnerable to infection?   The vaccinated?  Children?   My point is that at some point we have to open up completely and accept the risks because there will always be risk.  It’s a question of degree.  

I don't disagree. By end of year vaccinations will be approved for children. That should end most restrictions. As long as we can keep the number of lunatic anti-vaxxers low. 

This is no threat to liberty. A hundred years ago the authorities were vaccinating people at gunpoint on the streets of New York and Boston, and Montrealers were rioting against mandatory vaccinations. It didn't turn us into a dictatorship.

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7 minutes ago, Argus said:

Sure. And we are open in areas where vaccination rates are high. And will stay that way. Only the anti-vaxxers threaten that.

How is this syndrome called when one keeps hearing things but couldn't see them in reality? In the sense of removing all arbitrary, not supported by strong evidence uniform and blank restrictions on general population almost nowhere is it open. Is this some alternate reality, somewhere in another Universe?

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Just now, myata said:

How is this syndrome called when one keeps hearing things but couldn't see them in reality? In the sense of removing all arbitrary, not supported by strong evidence uniform and blank restrictions on general population almost nowhere is it open. Is this some alternate reality, somewhere in another Universe?

How is your freedom being restricted?

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In my region there were two (2) new cases, for over a million of population. How does it compare with the incidence of flu at the top of an annual epidemics, when there were no mandatory orders? I went to a store while leaving the mask at home, and had to go back. There was no reasonable justification for this restriction in that situation, nor possibly, subject to examination of available evidence, in any environment with sufficient spacing at low level of infection in the population. Any uniform restriction that is not a) temporary and b) sufficiently justified is a limitation of freedom. Just remove either of these conditions and you're on the way to a dictatorship.

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19 minutes ago, Argus said:

I don't disagree. By end of year vaccinations will be approved for children. That should end most restrictions. As long as we can keep the number of lunatic....

And again, that elephant in the room but maybe this time around we'd actually get an answer from an adept. The term of vaccine-induced immunity is limited, numbers like six to eight months were published. Some priority groups were vaccinated in the early spring, for them it's may be up already. For folks 60 and over (June) it can be approaching the term by end of the year. So what would be the implication of the mandatory rules? How long could and would they be extended for? Note that this would be the first ever - there are no known examples of annual or more frequent universal immunization and consequences are not known either. Are you sure drumming on the bandwagon is the most intelligent approach in this situation?

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47 minutes ago, Argus said:

How is the government interfering with any of that?

I mean, YOURS is, but not here, as far as I'm aware.

 

Don't kid yourself...feds and several provinces in Canada are curtailing liberties, imposing restrictions, limiting commerce and livelihoods, etc.

Supporting these restrictions, especially without due process, is not conservatism....it is supporting tyranny.

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3 hours ago, Argus said:

I guess being a Trumptard means you don't believe in law and order like conservatives do.  But that's okay, Shady. There's a prison cell waiting for you and the other criminal types.

I guess being a Xi-tard you believe in locking people up exercising their rights and freedoms.  I don’t doubt you have a prison cell ready for everybody that disagree with you and won’t go on living like a slave indefinitely.  President Xi would be very proud of you.  I think you’ll you extra social credit points for that post!  You’re such a conservative! ??

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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Don't kid yourself...feds and several provinces in Canada are curtailing liberties, imposing restrictions, limiting commerce and livelihoods, etc.

Supporting these restrictions, especially without due process, is not conservatism....it is supporting tyranny.

Exactly.  Argus is an authoritarian at heart.  He’s no conservative.  He’s now a branch covidian, allowing for whatever violations of people’s rights in order to keep him “safe”.   No laws have been written, debated by legislators and then voted on and passed into actual law.  It’s been a year and a half and governments are still relying on emergency decrees as if the virus just snuck on them last week.  It literally makes me laugh out loud when that ass clown Argus talks about being a conservative and the rule of law. ?

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16 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Don't kid yourself...feds and several provinces in Canada are curtailing liberties, imposing restrictions, limiting commerce and livelihoods, etc.

Supporting these restrictions, especially without due process, is not conservatism....it is supporting tyranny.

Phhht. They were rounding up non-compliant citizens in the US a hundred years ago and vaccinating them by force. They were breaking into houses, pinning people down and jabbing them against their will. They were stopping people on the street at gunpoint and vaccinating those who hadn't been vaccinated. I thought you 'back to the glory years' people regard America and Canada as having strayed from the ideals of freedom and liberty you used to have. This is nothing compared to the abuses of back then.

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14 hours ago, Shady said:

Exactly.  Argus is an authoritarian at heart.  

Give us a break. You Trumptards would put a fascist dictatorship in place in a second if you could, with no democracy and no rights for anyone other than straight, white Christian men. Any news media which insulted your great leader would be shut down and anyone who dared to disagree would be imprisoned while you applauded enthusiastically. I know what you are and have always been.

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55 minutes ago, Argus said:

... This is nothing compared to the abuses of back then.

 

This is not about back then...use to have slavery too.

Conservatism is not something you get to define on the fly just to suit personal ideology and biases.

 

Quote

"When government fears the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny."   - Thomas Jefferson

 

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One cannot seriously claim that the government or a branch thereof can do whatever it likes, limit any freedoms for as long as it thinks appropriate ("just stay at home") with no accountability, checks or independent oversight and still have a democracy. This an authoritarian territory and authoritarian crowd. While the boss mostly retains sanity and common sense, they'll be OK or sort of, and for a while. Then, there will be a problem as it happens always and invariably in the thousands years of history, sigh, yawn.

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2 hours ago, Argus said:

Give us a break. You Trumptards would put a fascist dictatorship in place in a second if you could, with no democracy and no rights for anyone other than straight, white Christian men. Any news media which insulted your great leader would be shut down and anyone who dared to disagree would be imprisoned while you applauded enthusiastically. I know what you are and have always been.

"straight, white Christian men???"

What a crock of woke, intersectional garbage.

I was willing to forgive you for just talking like a fascist while you called other people fascist (although I see you're still doing that." I just might chuckle and say "antifa much?"

But now you want to tell us how woke you are. Don't ever pretend to be a Conservative again. Or do it but you'll get called out.

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2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

This is not about back then...use to have slavery too.

Conservatism is not something you get to define on the fly just to suit personal ideology and biases.

True. That's why by every definition of conservatism the Republican Party you support is no longer conservative.

BTW, Canadians don't fear the government. That's an American thing.

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14 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

But now you want to tell us how woke you are. Don't ever pretend to be a Conservative again. Or do it but you'll get called out.

Phht. As if any of you Trumptards had even the most basic understanding of what the word even means.

 

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38 minutes ago, Infidel Dog said:

"straight, white Christian men???"

What a crock of woke, intersectional garbage.

I was willing to forgive you for just talking like a fascist while you called other people fascist (although I see you're still doing that." I just might chuckle and say "antifa much?"

But now you want to tell us how woke you are. Don't ever pretend to be a Conservative again. Or do it but you'll get called out.

Yep. Complete woke-servative.  Trump broke his brain, so now he’s embraced pretty much every left wing talking point.  It’s actually really funny to watch.

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24 minutes ago, Argus said:

Phht. As if any of you Trumptards had even the most basic understanding of what the word even means.

 

You Xi-tards are all the same.  You can’t seem to ever discuss a topic without bringing up Trump.  You need professional help.

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5 minutes ago, Shady said:

You Xi-tards are all the same.  You can’t seem to ever discuss a topic without bringing up Trump.  You need professional help.

Blow, fly, and take the rest of your crazy desperate-to-be-American friends with you.

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