Afghanistan and democracy

[August1991]

On 8/17/2021 at 8:30 AM, myata said:

There was a story I read about Afghan army commandos complaining about supplies shortly before surrender to Taliban. That's very indicative, can a country, ostensibly democracy fall over a bag of bad potatoes or it's only a symptom of something else?

....

Myata, I read quickly through this thread. And I recall the Afghans that I saw in their majlis in Tehran.

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I agree with Trump and Biden. IMHO, America recently has had two good presidents on a critical point:

After exhausting all alternatives, Americans eventually get it right.

Edited August 22, 2021 by August1991

[myata]

Getting it right from was not that difficult from the get go, only the politics, business and private interests got in the way. "Nation-building" is a fantasy there's barely any examples, without strong caveats, where it worked. The question that needed to be asked is this: what are realistic, viable alternatives for holding the country together, other than Taliban? Do they exist, or not?

Because building something entirely new in a society so different with own deeply entrenched traditions from scratch and in a few decades is just outside of possible in this reality.

[Army Guy]

On 8/18/2021 at 10:57 PM, CITIZEN_2015 said:

This is the only type of democracy that exists. Candidates present their platform and we elect them based on our like and dislike and the one getting most of the votes will form the government and hopefully implement promises made during campaign. We respect our women and girls and our constitution guarantees their equal rights and freedom. In fact our Charter guarantees everyone's rights and freedom.  

We don't force anyone what to eat or not to eat what to drink or not to drink, what to wear or not to wear, we don't lash people for disobedience and we don't impose our values upon others by force of invasion or sword. 

You again evaded to define what is YOUR type of democracy.

Democracy can exist in many different forms, and while the old Afghanistan government democracy may seem foreign to many of us , they did go to the polls and vote for what every candidate platform suited them... It is a start in the right direction, our democracy did not start out that well either nor did we even give equal rights to all citizens for decades, look at African Americans, our native American population, or the Jewish population.... lets not put ourselves on a pedestaled just yet, or someone will tear it down...

Afghanistan was special in it was one of the first Muslim countries not to be run by a dictator or king or Queen but rather chosen by the people... and we gave up on all that, we pissed that opportunity away....plus majority of Canadians gave up on all that years ago...they did not care yesterday, nor will they give it that much attention today. 

[xul]

On 8/15/2021 at 11:52 AM, Argus said:

The Afghan government couldn't survive without Western troops because it never succeeded in establishing loyalty from the tribal and clan chiefs, and because its innate corruption and theft at every level also meant it never obtained any sense of loyalty from the soldiers who were expected to fight and die to preserve it. All the higher level officers were political appointees with little ability who stole everything they could. Small wonder none of their men would fight.

How could it succeed in establishing loyalty from the tribal and clan chiefs if it was required only to do US's bidding?

For example:

If Trudeau always says:

"I will ban seal hunt in Canada because my US master BC2004 thinks killing seals is brutal... "

and

"I will encourage Canadian soldiers throwing dogs off cliff because my American master tells me killing dogs is the best way to train soldiers ready to kill enemy in a battle..."

How could he get a PM job from Canadian voters in an election?

[Jorge11]

No way Afghanistan will be a democracy. Taliban is a medieval movement that is now using a high-tech things in their cavemen-lifestyle.

[Michael Hardner]

2 hours ago, Jorge11 said:

1. No way Afghanistan will be a democracy.

2. Taliban is a medieval movement that is now using a high-tech things in their cavemen-lifestyle.

1. Ever?  Forever is a pretty long time.

2. I'll bet they have internet pornography.

[OftenWrong]

3 hours ago, Jorge11 said:

No way Afghanistan will be a democracy. Taliban is a medieval movement that is now using a high-tech things in their cavemen-lifestyle.

Already a given. Democracy is "un-Islamic" according to their fundamentalist religious leaders and scholars.
As in., it is an offence to Allah.

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

.2. I'll bet they have internet pornography.

Those channels are free in Egypt, because how could someone buy something that doesn't exist inside the borders of Egypt?  

Dunno if Afghanistan has the same arrangement with reality and fantasy, but it seems repressive societies play these kind of wink-wink games a lot.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

Dunno if Afghanistan has the same arrangement with reality and fantasy, but it seems repressive societies play these kind of wink-wink games a lot.

This is a good topic for @August1991  "How did we get Vietnam to come around ?"  Well, "we" (sorry the USA) left and let them apply their unbelievable national will to building a Marxist economy.  Oops, that didn't work, and now you can stay at the Hotel Continental Saigon (!) for $55.  Looks pretty good really, 4.3/5 rating and $55/night.

https://www.google.com/travel/hotels/Ho Chi Minh City/entity/CgoIrsL5scbfwt5xEAE?g2lb=2502548%2C2503771%2C2503781%2C4258168%2C4270442%2C4306835%2C4308226%2C4317915%2C4371335%2C4401769%2C4419364%2C4515404%2C4545890%2C4596364%2C4597339%2C4605861%2C4617195%2C4270859%2C4284970%2C4291517&hl=en-CA&gl=ca&ssta=1&ap=aAE&q=hotels in ho chi minh city&rp=EMjq5qjb-snwygEQoJ_X1MKGtIKwARCuwvmxxt_C3nEQ9Keu6Lzfgu75ATgBQABIAqIBGUhvIENoaSBNaW5oIENpdHksIFZpZXRuYW3AAQPIAQA&ictx=1&ved=0CAAQ5JsGahcKEwigxrS-tp_zAhUAAAAAHQAAAAAQAg&utm_campaign=sharing&utm_medium=link&utm_source=htls&ts=CAESABogCgIaABIaEhQKBwjlDxAKGAsSBwjlDxAKGAwYATICEAAqCQoFOgNDQUQaAA

 

[suds]

On 8/17/2021 at 6:09 PM, Goddess said:

The fact that the country fell so quickly, I suspect the whole 20 year war was not about democracy at all - it was about lining the pockets of those who are part of the big war machine.

You're right that it was never about democracy.  It was about getting rid of the terrorist camps and the taliban regime that allowed them safe haven to operate within their borders.  Once the taliban was gone, it had to be replaced with something and why not democracy?  Most islamic countries have democracies of some kind.

[August1991]

On 10/6/2021 at 1:33 PM, suds said:

You're right that it was never about democracy.  It was about getting rid of the terrorist camps and the taliban regime that allowed them safe haven to operate within their borders.  Once the taliban was gone, it had to be replaced with something and why not democracy?  Most islamic countries have democracies of some kind.

Between 1618-1648, young European men fought and killed each other.

Between 1789-1815, young European men fought and killed each other.

In the 20th century, once again, between 1914-1945, young European men fought and killed each other.

====

The "Vietnam War" was in fact a minor skirmish/battle in a larger so-called "Cold War" following Europe's Two Wars of the 20th century.

Maybe America will end this nonsense. Sweden didn't. Russia twice didn't.