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Do you believe in a divine Creator of the universe and everything in it, including mankind?


blackbird

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19 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

It's certainly a fairy tale that anyone has the right to live by, if they want to.  It's not something that should be imposed on others though.

a useful "fairy tale" that shouldn't be imposed

nor should it be imposed on

when the Atheists get the reigns though

it is imposed on, in genocidal fashion

time and time again

the most successful nations on the planet aren't majority atheist, they are mostly majority Christian

with Protestant nations being run notably better than their Catholic counterparts

the Catholic nations being run better than their Orthodox counterparts

and the Orthodox nations being run better than their non-Christian counterparts

I don't think that is a coincidence, there are very few outliers

and there isn't even one majority atheist outlier that is a shining example worthy of emulation

all the evidence points against a godless world being a better world

Edited by Yzermandius19
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15 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

a useful "fairy tale" that shouldn't be imposed

nor should it be imposed on

when the Atheists get the reigns though

it is imposed on, in genocidal fashion

time and time again

the most successful nations on the planet aren't majority atheist, they are mostly majority Christian

with Protestant nations being run notably better than their Catholic counterparts

and the Catholic nations being run better than their non-Christian counterparts

I don't think that is a coincidence, there are very few outliers

Well, I think the atheists you speak of mostly are those total authoritarians who have no need of a religion to keep everyone in step.  If you can just kill people who don't do what they are told, no point in threatening them with damnation and hellfire as well.

That said, I'm more than okay with people practicing whatever religion they want, as long as they keep it to themselves.  And within certain secular laws, of course.

And I'm certainly against any atheist telling any religious person what to do, just as I'm against any religious person telling any any atheist what to do.

 

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18 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, I think the atheists you speak of mostly are those total authoritarians who have no need of a religion to keep everyone in step.  If you can just kill people who don't do what they are told, no point in threatening them with damnation and hellfire as well.

That said, I'm more than okay with people practicing whatever religion they want, as long as they keep it to themselves.  And within certain secular laws, of course.

And I'm certainly against any atheist telling any religious person what to do, just as I'm against any religious person telling any any atheist what to do.

atheist authoritarians are the norm and the  live and let live atheists are few and far between, at that level of politics anyway

the atheists who don't wish to impose their atheism on theists don't have much taste for politics apparently

atheists who act like God doesn't exist are the bad apples of the bunch

atheists who act like God does exist are the good apples

the good apples have already internalized a lot of Judeo-Christian cultural values and act accordingly

whether they admit it and give credit to the religious underpinings of their moral code or not

what name they choose to call themselves is neither here nor there

Edited by Yzermandius19
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8 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

atheist authoritarians are the norm and the  live and let live atheists are few and far between, at that level of politics anyway

the atheists who don't wish to impose their atheism on theists don't have much taste for politics apparently

atheists who act like God doesn't exist are the bad apples of the bunch

atheists who act like God does exist are the good apples

the good apples have already internalized a lot of Judeo-Christian cultural values and act accordingly

whether they admit it and give credit to the religious underpinings of their moral code or not

what name they choose to call themselves is neither here nor there

No, I don't think so.  The authoritarians of which we both speak weren't imposing atheism on anyone, except, perhaps, as a means towards their end, in some cases.  A church is as much dissent as any other argument, and dies just the same.  It's not because it was a church.  It's because it was an argument.

There are no atheists who act like God does exist.  They just act like atheists.

We good apples are just good.  I'm glad some religious people follow our example, if not all of them.

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7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

We good apples are just good.  I'm glad some religious people follow our example, if not all of them.

you are following their example, not the other way around

you live in their culture, they don't live in yours

all the secular ideas you hold dear were adopted and pushed hardest by Christians

you simply stole their good ideas and take credit for their work as if you came up with the idea first, when the atheists were in fact late to the party, not the host

Edited by Yzermandius19
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11 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

you are following their example, not the other way around

you live in their culture, they don't live in yours

all the secular ideas you hold dear were adopted and pushed hardest by Christians

you simply stole their good ideas and take credit for their work as if you came up with the idea first, when the atheists were in fact late to the party, not the host

No, I don't agree with that at all.  Any religious ideas that are good are obvious to all and sundry, and are practiced by all decent people.   Religions are certainly welcome to use them.

Any religious ideas that are bad are theirs alone.

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26 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

all the secular ideas you hold dear were adopted and pushed hardest by Christians

And by Druids, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews and virtually all others.  Despite the teachings of their particular faith, humans have indulged in all kinds of nasty behavior, usually citing their God as their biggest supporter, including Christians.

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31 minutes ago, dialamah said:

And by Druids, Buddhists, Sikhs, Muslims, Jews and virtually all others.  Despite the teachings of their particular faith, humans have indulged in all kinds of nasty behavior, usually citing their God as their biggest supporter, including Christians.

the Druids were cannabals and practiced human sacrifice

the other religions are newer and before them the world was a lot less decent, especially the Jews

you only think they are universal and obvious to all because these religions helped make them so

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12 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

the Druids were cannabals and practiced human sacrifice

the other religions are newer and before them the world was a lot less decent, especially the Jews

you only think they are universal and obvious to all because these religions helped make them so

Yeah, but druids also preached about being truthful, merciful, loving.  The thing is, as was pointed out to me by one of our resident Christians a while ago, is that "good" behavior need only be practiced toward those who practice the same religion.   So Druids could practice human sacrifice/cannibalism against their enemies, Israelites could slaughter Caananites, Christians could slaughter Jews and Muslims, Muslims could slaughter Christians - and nobody would run afoul of their God.

At least secularists direct their goodwill towards everyone, not just other secularists.  

By the way, why should anyone require both a carrot (paradise) and a stick (hell) to behave decently?  That seems an odd thing to take pride in.

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On 7/2/2021 at 8:07 AM, Yzermandius19 said:

I don't see how evolution or the big bang suggest that a divine creator isn't behind them

nothing in either of those theories suggests that is the case and in fact many of scientists who developed these theories are in fact Christians

false dichotomy being asserted here, that Christianity and science aren't compatible

intelligent design leaves room for both to be correct and reinforcing the other

Christianity and science are compatible.  It is just a question of understanding the place of each subject and how they fit together.

Christianity is based on the Bible and the Bible tells us that God created the universe and life in six days.  This was a supernatural event of course.  Some people have a problem with that because they think everything must fit into some kind of scientific explanation.  The truth I believe is God created the universe, earth, life, and man with a certain age at the time they were created.  He did not create man as a baby, but created a full grown man (Adam) and Eve.  Therefore it is reasonable to assume all life, and the earth itself was created with an apparent age.  So it is reasonable to assume the earth had geological age built into it at the time it was created.  

Science tells us a lot of things, but science is man's observation and theories of the universe.  It does not necessarily have the answers to everything.  Science is not meant to give the answers of explanations of things in the spiritual or supernatural realm.  The Bible is a supernatural book and it's contents are of a supernatural character.

There are countless articles, videos on the internet, and books that deal with this subject.  There are scientists who can explain how the earth appears to have an long age but actually is a much younger age that fits in with the Bible account.  Some theologians and many Bible believers who take the Bible literally and say the earth is six, ten or so thousand years old according to biblical dating.  There are of course people who profess to be Christians but do not take the Bible account literally and go with theories of evolution and a long earth age.  They are assuming science is more reliable than Biblical revelation.  There are problems with that reasoning.  The Bible is meant to be taken in general in as literal way. That is how the account of creation given in Genesis is written.   It is impossible to try to reconcile the biblical account with a long earth age claimed by many scientists.  People who believe in an account of the history of the earth based on a long earth age of hundreds of millions of years are people who do not believe or accept the supernatural account given in the Bible.  One must accept that the creation of the earth was a supernatural event and that the Bible is meant to be taken literally, unless there is some biblical reason why not.  The Bible gives no reason why it should not be taken literally.

The Theory of Evolution contradicts the Biblical account of God creating everything in six days.  However, the Theory of Evolution has been found to be doubtful by some scientists for a number of reasons.  But the reasons for that does take some time and effort to understand.  There are different websites which have information that go into that.  It is an important subject because the Theory of Evolution has had a negative effect on the world as it attacks the authenticity of the Bible and Biblical truth.  This has led many people to accept secular humanism as a world view rather than biblical truth.  Secular humanism is purely man's reasoning and rejects God's revelation to man, which is the Bible.

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4 minutes ago, blackbird said:

Christianity and science are compatible.  It is just a question of understanding the place of each subject and how they fit together.

Christianity is based on the Bible and the Bible tells us that God created the universe and life in six days.  This was a supernatural event of course.  Some people have a problem with that because they think everything must fit into some kind of scientific explanation.  The truth I believe is God created the universe, earth, life, and man with a certain age at the time they were created.  He did not create man as a baby, but created a full grown man (Adam) and Eve.  Therefore it is reasonable to assume all life, and the earth itself was created with an apparent age.  So it is reasonable to assume the earth had geological age built into it at the time it was created.  

Science tells us a lot of things, but science is man's observation and theories of the universe.  It does not necessarily have the answers to everything.

There are countless articles, videos on the internet, and books that deal with this subject.  There are scientists who can explain how the earth appears to have an long age but actually is a much younger age that fits in with the Bible account that some theologians say the earth is six, ten or so thousand years old according to biblical dating.  There are of course people who profess to be Christians but do not take the Bible account literally and go with theories of evolution and a long earth age.  The problem with that is the Bible account is given in a literal way.  It is impossible to try to reconcile the biblical account with a long earth age claimed by many scientists.  One must accept that the creation of the earth was a supernatural event and that the Bible is meant to be taken literally, unless there is some biblical reason why not.  The Bible gives no reason why it should not be taken literally.

The Theory of Evolution contradicts the Biblical account of God creating everything in six days.  However, the Theory of Evolution has been found to be doubtful by some scientists for a number of reasons.  But the reason for that does take some time and effort to understand.  There are different website which have information that go into that.  It is an important subject because the Theory of Evolution has had a negative effect on the world as it attacks the authenticity of the Bible and Biblical truth.  This has led many people to accept secular humanism as a world view rather than biblical truth.

There is no reason why the Bible should be taken literally, or even seriously.  One must accept that it was written by men, with the motives of men, over a very long period of time with all the failings that come from memory and ulterior motives.  Anything that attacks the authenticity of the Bible must be a good thing because it is a work of fiction, and can have no claim to authenticity, if authenticity is meant to mean factual.

The Earth, of course, is billions of years old.  Dinosaurs were around long before humans and primitive marine life was around long before dinosaurs.  Humans evolved over time.  It is reasonable to assume that one has to only assume such things in order to believe what is written in the Bible, but it makes a lot more sense to realise they are actually fact and the Bible is fiction.

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19 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

strawman city

many of the best scientists in the world are Christians

and majority Christian nations are the most scientifically advanced nations in the world

the idea that science and religion are incompatible is a myth

a myth pushed by atheists who want to claim a moral and intellectual high ground they do not deserve

Religion and science are like oil and water. They might co-exist, but they can never mix to produce a homogeneous medium. Religion and science are fundamentally incompatible. They disagree profoundly on how we obtain knowledge of the world. Science is based observation and reasoning from observation. Religion assumes that human beings can access a deeper level of information that is not available by either observation or reason. The scientific method is proven by its success. The religious method is refuted by its failure.

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3 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

the bible is not meant to be taken entirely literally

a lot of it is clearly metaphorical

in some ways the metaphor is more real than the scientific explanations

but in many ways the scientific explanation is more accurate than the biblical account as well

What parts of the bible is not meant to be taken entirely literally...I would say all of it.

The bible is made up of plagiarized writings. many of the stories from the Bible have been taken from Mesopotamian lore, including (Enûma Eliš), the Babylon creation myth, and Noah’s Great Flood.

The bible is fiction,a hack job and anyone that believes its word is brain washed to believe.

but i do keep a copy of the bible in the bathroom,not for reading but incase the toilet paper runs out.

 

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On 7/2/2021 at 12:11 PM, Yzermandius19 said:

it is right

atheists kill more people than Christians by several orders of magnitude, especially in recent history

their track record is far worse than their religious counterparts

you are tunnel visioning on the flaws of certain religions

while ignoring or downplaying the flaws of other religions and atheists

resulting in a warped perception of world, both today and throughout history

No evidence of ordinary criminality rampant among nonbelievers can be found. In a desperation move, atheism gets blamed for modern warfare. You’ve heard the familiar tune — Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists, they all were responsible for terrible mass murder; therefore, atheism is responsible for terrible mass murder.

First, pointing to Hitler, Stalin, or Mao as consequences of nonbelief cannot help demonstrate the existence of God. If anything, such tragedy suffices as evidence against the existence of the Christian God.

Second, Hitler was religious, hated atheism, and most Nazis were Christians while atheist Stalin and atheist Mao eradicated millions for totalitarian power, not for atheism. If Stalin and Mao had been religious, they would have murdered all the same (consider the Catholicism of France’s Napolean or Italy’s Mussolini)

Communism is lumped together with atheism, as if atheism is responsible for communism. Wrong again. Capitalism is responsible for communism, especially that sort of predatory capitalism endorsed by most 19th century Christians which enslaved men, women, and children in lethal factories and sent them to an early grave.

 

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It doesn't matter if "god" really exists or not. My opinion what matters is that the belief system that is held by society is conducive to a better quality of life.

I flew in a plane once as a little boy. Once above the clouds I looked down. There was no heavan

 

 

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19 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

a useful "fairy tale" that shouldn't be imposed

nor should it be imposed on

when the Atheists get the reigns though

it is imposed on, in genocidal fashion

time and time again

the most successful nations on the planet aren't majority atheist, they are mostly majority Christian

And reasons for that are worth exploring. Whether something is tangibly real is not the only definition of what is real. Ideas have impact.

I don't need a god to tell me what to do, my own Dad explained to me good vs bad, and it is logical.

I do like the idea of god to act as a boundary condition, to limit the power of arrogant men who aspire to be leaders.

One nation under god

is better than

one nation under Stalin

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9 hours ago, Antichrist said:

What parts of the bible is not meant to be taken entirely literally...I would say all of it.

The bible is made up of plagiarized writings. many of the stories from the Bible have been taken from Mesopotamian lore, including (Enûma Eliš), the Babylon creation myth, and Noah’s Great Flood.

The bible is fiction,a hack job and anyone that believes its word is brain washed to believe.

but i do keep a copy of the bible in the bathroom,not for reading but incase the toilet paper runs out.

 

taking the best and most meaningful stories throughout history

and compiling them to pass down ancient wisdom

feature, not a bug

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10 hours ago, Antichrist said:

Religion and science are like oil and water. They might co-exist, but they can never mix to produce a homogeneous medium. Religion and science are fundamentally incompatible. They disagree profoundly on how we obtain knowledge of the world. Science is based observation and reasoning from observation. Religion assumes that human beings can access a deeper level of information that is not available by either observation or reason. The scientific method is proven by its success. The religious method is refuted by its failure.

If science and religion are so incompatible then how come so many of the best scientists are religious?

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8 hours ago, Antichrist said:

No evidence of ordinary criminality rampant among nonbelievers can be found. In a desperation move, atheism gets blamed for modern warfare. You’ve heard the familiar tune — Hitler, Stalin, and Mao were atheists, they all were responsible for terrible mass murder; therefore, atheism is responsible for terrible mass murder.

First, pointing to Hitler, Stalin, or Mao as consequences of nonbelief cannot help demonstrate the existence of God. If anything, such tragedy suffices as evidence against the existence of the Christian God.

Second, Hitler was religious, hated atheism, and most Nazis were Christians while atheist Stalin and atheist Mao eradicated millions for totalitarian power, not for atheism. If Stalin and Mao had been religious, they would have murdered all the same (consider the Catholicism of France’s Napolean or Italy’s Mussolini)

Communism is lumped together with atheism, as if atheism is responsible for communism. Wrong again. Capitalism is responsible for communism, especially that sort of predatory capitalism endorsed by most 19th century Christians which enslaved men, women, and children in lethal factories and sent them to an early grave.

Communism is responsible for communism

and the Commies are atheists with far higher kill counts than their religious counterparts

 

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30 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

Communism is responsible for communism

and the Commies are atheists with far higher kill counts than their religious counterparts

 

Yeah, but that was because they were communists, not because they were atheists.

Bloody zealots with extreme belief systems, man.  I tell you, they're bad news.

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6 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yeah, but that was because they were communists, not because they were atheists.

Bloody zealots with extreme belief systems, man.  I tell you, they're bad news.

atheists can be zealots too and often are

atheism is not a defense against extreme beliefs

no need for a double standard giving atheists a pass, while only blaming the religious for extreme beliefs

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Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

atheists can be zealots too and often are

atheism is not a defense against extreme beliefs

One doesn't need a defense.  One just needs to be sane and rational.  Like atheists.

There might be the occasional looney, of course.

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2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

The removal of god's authority vis "thou shan't kill" is what enables bloody zealots.

Cart, get thee behind my horse.

Oh bollocks.  If God said that there are an awful lot of God's children investing in industrial grade earplugs.

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