Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 6 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: I don't see how evolution or the big bang suggest that a divine creator isn't behind them nothing in either of those theories suggests that is the case and in fact many of scientists who developed these theories are in fact Christians false dichotomy being asserted here, that Christianity and science aren't compatible It's true that there is no way to be sure that the universe wasn't created by a "Supreme Being". It's a pretty big universe though, so it would have to be a really supreme being. And it doesn't have to be Christian. It could belong to anyone with a creation myth, or not belong to any of them. Maybe the universe was created with another planet full of religious beings in mind and we here in this galaxy are just an afterthought. Somewhere to put its mistakes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, bcsapper said: It's true that there is no way to be sure that the universe wasn't created by a "Supreme Being". It's a pretty big universe though, so it would have to be a really supreme being. And it doesn't have to be Christian. It could belong to anyone with a creation myth, or not belong to any of them. Maybe the universe was created with another planet full of religious beings in mind and we here in this galaxy are just an afterthought. Somewhere to put its mistakes. the Christians seem to be getting pretty good results perhaps because they are closer to the mark than other religions if the universe is the work of intelligent design would the creator not reward those who have the best understanding of that universe the most, to help lead them and others to the light? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: the Christians seem to be getting pretty good results perhaps because they are closer to the mark than other religions if the universe is the work of intelligent design would the creator not reward those who have the best understanding of that universe the most, to help lead them and others to the light? I don't know how anyone would be able to tell that they are closer to a "mark". It's all a matter of faith anyway. Maybe God is a giant Raven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I don't know how anyone would be able to tell that they are closer to a "mark". It's all a matter of faith anyway. Maybe God is a giant Raven. those who believe that God is a giant Raven haven't faired as well as Christians throughout history so probably not Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 Just now, Yzermandius19 said: those who believe that God is a giant Raven haven't faired as well as Christians throughout history so probably not Given the whole "eye of a needle" thing, I think most Christians who do pretty well are actually atheists. But Gods move in mysterious ways. Maybe that's the point. I'm an unbeliever, but I'm leaning towards the Raven. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 12 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Given the whole "eye of a needle" thing, I think most Christians who do pretty well are actually atheists. But Gods move in mysterious ways. Maybe that's the point. I'm an unbeliever, but I'm leaning towards the Raven. no most atheists who do well are actually Christian they act as if God exists and follow Judeo-Christian values, even if they claim they don't believe in God the atheists who don't do that, do nowhere near as well note that most well off atheists live in majority Christian nations and that majority Christian nations are the most well off nations on the planet those of other religions do much better in majority Christian nations than elsewhere, as do atheists is that a coincidence? I think not Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 4 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: no most atheists who do well are actually Christian they act as if God exists and follow Judeo-Christian values, even if they don't believe in him the atheists who don't do that, do nowhere near as well No, that's not right. Any common decency that humans have existed before Jews and Christians came along, and any decent religious teachings just expounded on those. I knew I should be decent to others before the nuns got to me. I didn't know that there were no such things as dinosaurs though. I figured it out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bcsapper said: No, that's not right. Any common decency that humans have existed before Jews and Christians came along, and any decent religious teachings just expounded on those. I knew I should be decent to others before the nuns got to me. I didn't know that there were no such things as dinosaurs though. I figured it out. wrong that sense of human decency you would recognize began with the Jews they were the first religion to stop child sacrifice for instance hence God telling Abraham not kill his son the world prior to Judeo-Christian values was not a commonly decent place, quite the opposite monotheism is a helluva drug Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: wrong that sense of human decency you would recognize began with the Jews they were the first religion to stop child sacrifice for instance hence God telling Abraham not kill his son the world prior to Judeo-Christian values was not a commonly decent place, quite the opposite monotheism is a helluva drug No, that's not right. Christians were still killing each other with unbridled joy right up to a few hundred years ago. I don't think the fable about Abraham had much effect. Muslims still do, and it's the same God. One would think he would have told someone else by now. It's been a few thousand years at least. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, bcsapper said: No, that's not right. Christians were still killing each other with unbridled joy right up to a few hundred years ago. I don't think the fable about Abraham had much effect. Muslims still do, and it's the same God. One would think he would have told someone else by now. It's been a few thousand years at least. It's a good job we secular societies stopped with killing, then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 6 minutes ago, bcsapper said: No, that's not right. Christians were still killing each other with unbridled joy right up to a few hundred years ago. I don't think the fable about Abraham had much effect. Muslims still do, and it's the same God. One would think he would have told someone else by now. It's been a few thousand years at least. it is right atheists kill more people than Christians by several orders of magnitude, especially in recent history their track record is far worse than their religious counterparts you are tunnel visioning on the flaws of certain religions while ignoring or downplaying the flaws of other religions and atheists resulting in a warped perception of world, both today and throughout history Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: It's a good job we secular societies stopped with killing, then. We didn't. God doesn't make a difference either way. Edit> Except, I think, for the "cheerfully" bit in my favourite quote on religion. Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. There's something about killing in the name of your God that is just so uplifting. Edited July 2, 2021 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, bcsapper said: We didn't. God doesn't make a difference either way. Edit> Except, I think, for the "cheerfully" bit in my favourite quote on religion. Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction. There's something about killing in the name of your God that is just so uplifting. then why do atheists do it more cheerfully and completely than the religious? riddle me that Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: it is right atheists kill more people than Christians by several orders of magnitude, especially in recent history their track record is far worse than their religious counterparts you are tunnel visioning on the flaws of certain religions while ignoring or downplaying the flaws of other religions and atheists resulting in a warped perception of world, both today and throughout history Yeah, I know. So what? You're tunnel visioning on the flaws of atheists. Decency is a natural thing. So is nastiness. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 3 minutes ago, bcsapper said: We didn't. God doesn't make a difference either way. One has a message like "turn the other cheek". Fundamental lessons on mercy and tolerance, messages against violence. Those became the foundations of our law today. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 Just now, Yzermandius19 said: then why do atheists do it more cheerfully and completely than the religious? riddle me that They don't. I said cheerfully. It's in my last sentence there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 To know real history is to undo the liars. And the badly mistaken as well... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: One has a message like "turn the other cheek". Fundamental lessons on mercy and tolerance, messages against violence. Those became the foundations of our law today. Bollocks. People do that or they don't. God has nothing to do with it. Edited July 2, 2021 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bcsapper said: Yeah, I know. So what? You're tunnel visioning on the flaws of atheists. Decency is a natural thing. So is nastiness. nope decency is an outlier in the historical record nastiness isn't Hobbes was right Rousseau was wrong Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 1 minute ago, bcsapper said: They don't. I said cheerfully. It's in my last sentence there. they do, the atheists were quite enthusiastic in murdering over 100 million in the 20th Century Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said: nope decency is an outlier in the historical record nastiness isn't Hobbes was right Rousseau was wrong I don't know about either worthy, but both are natural things. Their respective frequency of occurrence in the historical record notwithstanding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 2 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said: they do, the atheists were quite enthusiastic in murdering over 100 million in the 20th Century No, there's something about going to Heaven for it... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 5 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I don't know about either worthy, but both are natural things. Their respective frequency of occurrence in the historical record notwithstanding. you overestimate how common decency is because you live during the most historically decent era, in a historically decent location your ivory tower is an outlier, not the norm, both throughout history and in the world today cherish that, don't take it for granted, don't project it on the rest of the world or back into history Rousseau was wrong, you're making the same mistake Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 Just now, Yzermandius19 said: you overestimate how common of decency is, because you live during the most historically decent era, in a historically decent location your ivory tower is an outlier, not the norm, both throughout history and in the world today cherish that, don't take it for granted Now that's a weird coincidence. I just posted on ivory towers elsewhere. But that said, I don't have any estimates on how common decency is. Or nastiness. I do know that a God is not necessary for either. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yzermandius19 Posted July 2, 2021 Report Share Posted July 2, 2021 (edited) 4 minutes ago, bcsapper said: I do know that a God is not necessary for either. no but God does help reduce nastiness and increase decency if the societies his followers built are any indication atheists and those who follow other religions, who live in these cultures, are beneficiaries of that whether they admit it or not Edited July 2, 2021 by Yzermandius19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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