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Do you believe in a divine Creator of the universe and everything in it, including mankind?


blackbird

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7 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

One doesn't need a defense.  One just needs to be sane and rational.  Like atheists.

There might be the occasional looney, of course.

not all atheists are sane and rational

many theists are sane and rational

I disagree entirely with the assertion that atheists are more sane and rational on average than theists

that is just what many atheists tell themselves

because they want to have an unearned sense of intellectual and moral superiority over theists, that they do not deserve

a myth pushed by atheist zealots, if ever there was one

Edited by Yzermandius19
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1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

not all atheists are sane and rational

many theists are sane and rational

I disagree entirely with the assertion that atheists are more sane and rational on average than theists

that is just what many atheists tell themselves

because they want to have an unearned sense of intellectual and moral superiority they do not deserve

a myth pushed by atheist zealots, if ever there was one

No, that's wrong.  By definition, belief in something, in such a way as to be life changing, for which there is no evidence beyond somedody else telling you it exists is not particularly sane or rational.

The insistence on proof is. Especially if you're going to waste your Sunday mornings on it.

 

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3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

No, that's wrong.  By definition, belief in something, in such a way as to be life changing, for which there is no evidence beyond somedody else telling you it exists is not particularly sane or rational.

The insistence on proof is. Especially if you're going to waste your Sunday mornings on it.

you are just wrong

atheists have the same religious impulse as everyone else, they are just in denial about it

applying that impulse to an idol or idols other than God, like science for example, doesn't make them any more rational than theists

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Just now, bcsapper said:

Oh bollocks.  If God said that there are an awful lot of God's children investing in industrial grade earplugs.

Speak english man, this Canada.

Your argument says all ideas are useless because people fail to live up to them. So what if people do, there will always be mistakes. And there will always be a struggle for the rights of the individual in comparison to big power.

What I said makes sense in the context of political, religious power struggle taking place over centuries, and where the power was held before and is held now, but in this country you are entitled to not believe things. Thanks to our tolerant society built on the basis of Roman law, deriving itself from the Greeks. All which Christianity was able to assemble and take even further through the enlightenment. By humanizing the law, limiting state power for things like capital punishment.

That is not to say no eggs got cracked along the way of course. And there is not much one can do when an egg gets cracked. One can make omelets.

 

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Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

you are just wrong

atheists have the same religious impulse as everyone else, they are just in denial about it

applying that impulse to an idol or idols other than God, doesn't make them any more rational than theists

No they don't.

It might make you feel a little better about your own beliefs to think so, but they really don't.

 

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Just now, OftenWrong said:

Speak english man, this Canada.

Your argument says all ideas are useless because people fail to live up to them. So what if people do, there will always be mistakes. And there will always be a struggle for the rights of the individual in comparison to big power.

What I said makes sense in the context of political, religious power struggle taking place over centuries, and where the power was held before and is held now, but in this country you are entitled to not believe things. Thanks to our tolerant society built on the basis of Roman law, deriving itself from the Greeks. All which Christianity was able to assemble and take even further through the enlightenment. By humanizing the law, limiting state power for things like capital punishment.

That is not to say no eggs got cracked along the way of course. And there is not much one can do when an egg gets cracked. One can make omelets.

 

No my argument says that people know not to kill without being told, and God doesn't make any difference either way.  Humans will do what they do, regardless.

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Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

they really do

making science your God is no more rational than making God your God

I don't go to the lab every Sunday morning...

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4 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

No my argument says that people know not to kill without being told, and God doesn't make any difference either way.  Humans will do what they do, regardless.

except before those religions came along, people didn't behave that way

the religions spread the way they did, because they were an upgrade on other religions

God did make a difference, the historical record is clear

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1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

 

so? many religious people don't either

and there is nothing wrong with going to church

No, there isn't.  If that's what you want to do.  I question your reasoning, of course, but what am I doing on a Sunday morning?  Arguing with you and OftenWrong. 

So I have no reason to crow.

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1 minute ago, Yzermandius19 said:

except before those religions came along, people didn't behave that way

the religions spread the way they did, because they were an upgrade on other religions

God did make a difference, the historical record is clear

Some did, some didn't.  Pretty much the same after religion came along.

The reasons for a lot of the killing might have changed.

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5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Some did, some didn't.  Pretty much the same after religion came along.

The reasons for a lot of the killing might have changed.

the point is

you refuse to give credit to religion for helping to improve human morality throughout history

so you can pretend like if those religions never came along, humanity would be just as decent today as it is now

so you can pretend like the improvements they clearly made haven't influenced your own moral code deeply

so you can give that credit to your atheist beliefs instead

Edited by Yzermandius19
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5 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

No my argument says that people know not to kill without being told, and God doesn't make any difference either way.  Humans will do what they do, regardless.

Not necessarily. Man has an innate inhumanity toward man. Plus everything else. We must therefore make laws. Laws are now made. How were they made?

As example of what happens when humans may do what they will, see "Lord of the Flies".

The belief in a creator as the thread asks doesn't necessarily mean that one either believes in the christian god or is an atheist. Creator could mean anything. Even a mathematical equation could be a creator...

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Just now, Yzermandius19 said:

the point is

you refuse to give credit to religion for helping to improve human morality throughout history

so you can pretend like those improvements haven't influenced your own moral code deeply

so you can give that credit to your atheist beliefs instead

You refuse to give credit to religion too, I think.  You seem to concentrate on only one.

I feel the same way about them all, with varying levels of disgust based on events as they happen.

I know a lot of thoroughly decent religious people.   I mean, really good people.  Salt of the Earth, shirt off their back types.  Different religions, too.  We're not talking about individuals though.

A lot of bad things happen in the world when religion is not involved, no argument there, but in every case there is an ideology as brutal as any religion to account for them, and it never has anything to do with a lack of belief in anything.

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2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not necessarily. Man has an innate inhumanity toward man. Plus everything else. We must therefore make laws. Laws are now made. How were they made?

As example of what happens when humans may do what they will, see "Lord of the Flies".

The belief in a creator as the thread asks doesn't necessarily mean that one either believes in the christian god or is an atheist. Creator could mean anything. Even a mathematical equation could be a creator...

exactly

humans being humans without restraint from a greater power of some kind

results in a Hobbesian state of nature like Lord of the Flies

not a Rousseauean state of nature, where the world is a utopia without any such restraints

Hobbes was right, Rousseau was wrong

the historical record is quite clear about that

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10 hours ago, Antichrist said:

What parts of the bible is not meant to be taken entirely literally...I would say all of it.

The bible is made up of plagiarized writings. many of the stories from the Bible have been taken from Mesopotamian lore, including (Enûma Eliš), the Babylon creation myth, and Noah’s Great Flood.

The bible is fiction,a hack job and anyone that believes its word is brain washed to believe.

but i do keep a copy of the bible in the bathroom,not for reading but incase the toilet paper runs out.

 

You are fabricating a narrative about where the Bible came from.   It was actually written by prophets and apostles who were inspired by God.  Almost all of the writers were Jewish prophets and they wrote what they were inspired to write.  There are I think 66 books of the Bible by various authors.  The King James Version is based upon the received text and is therefore God's inspired Bible.  The Old Testament actually was the Hebrew Bible and was extremely carefully copied down through the ages in Hebrew.  Some of the Old Testament is historical that tells the history of man (Genesis).  The first number of books are historical which recount the history of Israel as Israel was/is God's chosen people. The whole Bible is God's revelation to man.  The truth of the Bible is verified by the miraculous events which were recorded by eye witnesses.  The most important event was the resurrection of Jesus Christ who was seen by eye witnesses after the resurrection.  This means what Jesus said while on earth is factual and he is God as he taught.   Someone who raised the dead and was himself raised from the dead in no small matter.   It is what God considered important to say to mankind.  I don't think you know anything about it and are just throwing out bull crap.

Edited by blackbird
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Just now, bcsapper said:

You refuse to give credit to religion too, I think.  You seem to concentrate on only one.

some deserve more credit than others

all religions are not the same

many of the older religions were barbaric by comparison to some of the newer ones

the Pagans were not as moral as their monotheistic counterparts, for instance

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3 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

you know you are deeply bigoted against religion

when you refuse to give them credit they clearly deserve

and try and steal that credit for your own belief system instead

that is a level of partisan hackery that is neither sane nor rational, and a clear example of zealotry

No I'm not.  I do feel a great deal of disgust when they hurt people. 

And I am baffled by a belief system that affects so many without any actual reason to believe it other than someone a long time ago told you it happened.

But as I said, I support everyone's right to believe whatever they want, and to go to church and not wear a hat (unless you're a woman) or eat fish on Friday or anything like that.  As long as they don't try and tell anyone else not to wear a hat.  Or covet, or commit adultery, or blaspheme, or have an abortion, or marry someone with the same genitalia, or anything at all, really.

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8 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

You refuse to give credit to religion too, I think.  You seem to concentrate on only one.

I feel the same way about them all, with varying levels of disgust based on events as they happen.

I know a lot of thoroughly decent religious people.   I mean, really good people.  Salt of the Earth, shirt off their back types.  Different religions, too.  We're not talking about individuals though.

A lot of bad things happen in the world when religion is not involved, no argument there, but in every case there is an ideology as brutal as any religion to account for them, and it never has anything to do with a lack of belief in anything.

If you believe in nothing, you'll believe in anything

the void is inevitably filled, often by the brutal ideologies you mention far worse than religions you bash

those who think they are above the impulse entirely deny their human nature, leaving them blind to this fact

Edited by Yzermandius19
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12 minutes ago, blackbird said:

You are fabricating a narrative about where the Bible came from.   It was actually written by prophets and apostles who were inspired by God.  Almost all of the writers were Jewish prophets and they wrote what they were inspired to write.  There are I think 66 books of the Bible by various authors.  The King James Version is based upon the received text and is therefore God's inspired Bible.  The Old Testament actually was the Hebrew Bible and was extremely carefully copied down through the ages in Hebrew.  Some of the Old Testament is historical that tells the history of man (Genesis).  The first number of books are historical which recount the history of Israel as Israel was/is God's chosen people. The whole Bible is God's revelation to man.  The truth of the Bible is verified by the miraculous events which were recorded by eye witnesses.  The most important event was the resurrection of Jesus Christ who was seen by eye witnesses after the resurrection.  This means what Jesus said while on earth is factual and he is God as he taught.   Someone who raised the dead and was himself raised from the dead in no small matter.   It is what God considered important to say to mankind.  I don't think you know anything about it and are just throwing out bull crap.

there were far more books than that

the Romans picked and choose the one's they found most acceptable

and that is the bible you know today

the compiled works that got passed the Roman censors

a lot was edited out

Edited by Yzermandius19
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2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I do feel a great deal of disgust when they hurt people. 

I guess you must hate Queen Victoria. And Elizabeth. I'll send her a note.

It is the prerogative of the left to hate the very thing that provides them with the freedom to hate it.

Let's all give a damn, what they think they're entitled to.

You people are literally social cancer

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11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not necessarily. Man has an innate inhumanity toward man. Plus everything else. We must therefore make laws. Laws are now made. How were they made?

As example of what happens when humans may do what they will, see "Lord of the Flies".

The belief in a creator as the thread asks doesn't necessarily mean that one either believes in the christian god or is an atheist. Creator could mean anything. Even a mathematical equation could be a creator...

A book!  Just like the Bible.

No argument about inhumanity.  It is what we are, after all.  As nature intended.  (Or God intended)

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6 minutes ago, Yzermandius19 said:

If you believe in nothing, you'll believe in anything

the void is inevitably filled, often by the brutal ideologies you mention far worse than religions you bash

those who think they are above the impulse entirely deny their human nature, leaving them blind to this fact

Don't give up your day job to go into aphorism development.

That actually doesn't make any sense.

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