Did Trudeau Fail His Country On Covid-19

cannuck · April 10, 2020

On 3/21/2020 at 10:57 AM, Argus said:

It is not his fault that the virus started. But to suggest he cannot be blamed despite having plenty of warning and doing NOTHING to prepare for this is flat out wrong.

You are crediting Mr Dressup and the Sesami Street cabinet with enough intelligence to be ABLE to be responsible. Any real blame lies with the Canadian voters who put such a band of dolts into parliament, never mind power.

BTW: seems that the Canforce medical intelligence bunch were writing papers and screaming their heads off about this around the New Year. Heard on some news cast while working this morning, but can't find a citation.

Edited April 10, 2020 by cannuck

Argus · April 10, 2020

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

It's weird to see you be a conservative regarding Canadian politics, using facts and logic in threads about Trudeau, and then act like a liberal snowflake re: American politics, throwing out platitudes and childish insults in lieu of facts.

But I'm a real conservative. Your god has never been a conservative of any sort. He's been a fornicating gambler, adulterer, playboy, liar, cheat, braggart, swindler and general all around scumbag his entire life. Why would I make excuses for his shoddy behavior or complete lack of organizational and leadership skills?

Argus · April 10, 2020

53 minutes ago, Shady said:

I’ve said for a long time that Trump makes people behave in ways they normally wouldn’t. This goes for politicians, media and journalists, and regular people.

I behave towards Trump the same way I would any other brainless incompetent idiot. Especially when the brainless incompetent idiot is also a mean-spirited asshole with no class.

Argus · April 10, 2020

1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Yes, it is fascinating to watch this in Canadian media and reader comments. Deflections to Trump are reflexive and expected, just like any other controversy in Canada. "But Trump is worse !" is the common refrain.

This introduction of Trump came from the other side, from one of yours trumpeting (pun intended) how much better Trump has done than Trudeau.

For my part, I've said I prefer to compare Trudeau's and Canada's performance on this file to that of the successful countries like Australia, South Korea and Taiwan, not the unsuccessful ones. Just as in any discussion of health care in general I compare us to European health care systems, not the likes of the US.

bush_cheney2004 · April 10, 2020

Just now, Argus said:

This introduction of Trump came from the other side, from one of yours trumpeting (pun intended) how much better Trump has done than Trudeau.

For my part, I've said I prefer to compare Trudeau's and Canada's performance on this file to that of the successful countries like Australia, South Korea and Taiwan, not the unsuccessful ones. Just as in any discussion of health care in general I compare us to European health care systems, not the likes of the US.

It is much bigger than your petty squabbles with other members here. Canadian media and reflexive disgust for Trump by a majority of Canadians leads to the very predictable comparisons between him and Trudeau, regardless of the actual topic. Trump's antics and policies have been embedded into the Canadian psyche like a virus that won't go away. They are infected with Trump because they keep ingesting the American narrative, which is a foreign country.

Europe has more cases and deaths from COVID19 than the U.S., but Canadians are very focused on America and American media, just as they have always been.

Argus · April 10, 2020

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canadian media and reflexive disgust for Trump by a majority of Canadians

Let's face it. Everyone with an ounce of class has a reflexive disgust for Trump.

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Europe has more cases and deaths from COVID19 than the U.S., but Canadians are very focused on America and American media, just as they have always been.

Well, you ARE right next door to us, so that's only natural. If Mexico was right next door we'd be talking about them a lot too.

bush_cheney2004 · April 10, 2020

1 minute ago, Argus said:

Let's face it. Everyone with an ounce of class has a reflexive disgust for Trump.

So what ? Does that mean he has to dominate so much of normal discourse, admitting that he has been very effective at getting into Canadian heads ?

Trump is doing exactly what he wants to do, and Canadians are suckers to get played so easily.

Quote

Well, you ARE right next door to us, so that's only natural. If Mexico was right next door we'd be talking about them a lot too.

Mexico is right next door to the U.S., but Americans do not obsess about their president in news media or forums.

Argus · April 10, 2020

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

So what ? Does that mean he has to dominate so much of normal discourse,

He normally doesn't, not in real life. The reason he's talked about so much here is because he has a few worshipers who keep bringing him up, then everyone has to tell them how stupid they are, and it goes on from there.

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Mexico is right next door to the U.S., but Americans do not obsess about their president in news media or forums.

Because your clown show is way bigger than theirs.

bush_cheney2004 · April 10, 2020

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

He normally doesn't, not in real life. The reason he's talked about so much here is because he has a few worshipers who keep bringing him up, then everyone has to tell them how stupid they are, and it goes on from there.

That's not true...many other media outlets in Canada have obsessed over Trump on top of all the regular American media that Canadians voraciously consume.

...and that was even before the pandemic. Canada invented a new word..."Trumpian".

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Because your clown show is way bigger than theirs.

Mexicans want to get into America with or without Trump...Canadians just want to winter there.

eyeball · April 10, 2020

3 hours ago, Argus said:

Even the CBC is now coming out with stories detailing how slow the Trudeau government was in responding to this. Even into March they were saying there was little danger to Canada. The more we see of this sort of thing the more we realize how complete the failure was on the part of public health bureaucrats across the country.

Can you also see how universal the failings of public health authorities have been around virtually the entire planet and that worrying about what the public thinks is front of mind in virtually every government's administration whether they're the worst dictatorship or the best democracy on the planet?

I suspect most COVID-19 viruses are laughing their asses off over all the quibbling over which one did better or worse or why. The distraction just makes their lives all the more easier.

Argus · April 10, 2020

20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

That's not true...many other media outlets in Canada have obsessed over Trump

The media is not Canada. I've written a number of times about the distance between the very left of centre media culture and that of ordinary Canadians. The media are progressives. Of course they hate Trump. They thought Andrew bloody Scheer was an evil far rightist. They probably think Trump is worse than Hitler.

Argus · April 10, 2020

Just now, eyeball said:

Can you also see how universal the failings of public health authorities have been around virtually the entire planet and that worrying about what the public thinks is front of mind in virtually every government's administration whether they're the worst dictatorship or the best democracy on the planet?

Yes. But as I've already said before, I judge our government on those who succeed, not those who fail. And also on what I believe were reasonable precautions based on what I myself would have done at the time were it my decision.

eyeball · April 10, 2020

3 hours ago, Shady said:

I’m sorry but that’s just not true.

You're saying 10% of 400000 is not equal to 40000?

WestCanMan · April 10, 2020

1 hour ago, Argus said:

But I'm a real conservative. Your god has never been a conservative of any sort. He's been a fornicating gambler, adulterer, playboy, liar, cheat, braggart, swindler and general all around scumbag his entire life. Why would I make excuses for his shoddy behavior or complete lack of organizational and leadership skills?

I'm an atheist. Don't bring imaginary friends into this.

WestCanMan · April 10, 2020

I put a post on FB with the video of Trudeau dissing international flight bans from March 16th and now the "Content Unavailable" is showing up there.

Does anyone have a link to Trudeau's speech about not shutting down air travel? I thought it was on P1 here but it isn't.

NVM I found it. Banning international travel wouldn't work on the 13th, but on the 16th it was cool. I had the dates wrong.

Edited April 10, 2020 by WestCanMan

bush_cheney2004 · April 10, 2020

3 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Does anyone have a link to Trudeau's speech about not shutting down air travel? I thought it was on P1 here but it isn't.

This is from March 13...

WestCanMan · April 10, 2020

.

Edited April 10, 2020 by WestCanMan

WestCanMan · April 10, 2020

Dang. How can I delete my post above?

WestCanMan · April 10, 2020

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This is from March 13...

Thanks B_C.

eyeball · April 10, 2020

Just now, Argus said:

Yes. But as I've already said before, I judge our government on those who succeed, not those who fail. And also on what I believe were reasonable precautions based on what I myself would have done at the time were it my decision.

You also like to judge according to actual studies that analyze data by qualified institutions that at least try to keep beliefs and bias out of their conclusions.

Have you seen anything like these yet? You're usually right on top of that sort of thing.

eyeball · April 10, 2020

7 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

This is from March 13...

Even Trudeau mistakenly believed that the US "entirely closed" their borders.

I guess different jurisdictions must just use different definitions for the word ban. No doubt there's a debate raging somewhere over the vast difference between ketchup and catsup.

bush_cheney2004 · April 10, 2020

6 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Even Trudeau mistakenly believed that the US "entirely closed" their borders.

I guess different jurisdictions must just use different definitions for the word ban. No doubt there's a debate raging somewhere over the vast difference between ketchup and catsup.

Well, the reality is that once nations are locked down to deter community spread, international and domestic airline travel would be greatly diminished anyway. So just shut it all down.

Edited April 10, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

eyeball · April 10, 2020

10 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Well, the reality is that once nations are locked down to deter community spread, international and domestic airline travel would be greatly diminished anyway. So just shut it all down.

Whatever "shut it all down" means. I guess it's safe to say it doesn't mean physically preventing planes from taking off or blowing them out of the sky once they get to close.

Argus · April 10, 2020

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

You also like to judge according to actual studies that analyze data by qualified institutions that at least try to keep beliefs and bias out of their conclusions.

I'm not sure what you're referring to. We're discussing what Trudeau SHOULD have done. I'm comparing what he DID to what places like Australia and Taiwan did, and what _I_ did.

And I find his response lacking.

eyeball · April 10, 2020

1 hour ago, Argus said:

I'm not sure what you're referring to. We're discussing what Trudeau SHOULD have done. I'm comparing what he DID to what places like Australia and Taiwan did, and what _I_ did.

And I find his response lacking.

Correct me if I'm wrong but haven't you also said more people died because of Trudeau's not banning flights vs the number of people Trump saved by banning flights?

Shouldn't these be quantifiable values that can be derived thru a collection and analysis of data from multiple sources by people who how to do so?

Look at the questions posed with the OP of this thread. They are questions that seem to cry out for data and the only data we have are rates of infections and deaths. So far these seem to confirm the concern of experts who said travel bans would make things worse.

Social distancing and limiting international travel don't work. We would have the same # of cases right now even if we had stopped flights from China from coming in.
Eliminating travel from the epicentre of the virus outbreak was an obvious, key-component of the strategy to limit the spread of the virus. Trudeau failed Canadians.

These are not simple yes and no answers unless you choose to just let feelings and beliefs guide you.

Edited April 10, 2020 by eyeball