The Coronavirus

[New World Disorder]

On 6/7/2020 at 6:06 PM, bcsapper said:

How ironic is it that, while showing fervent support for the health of one segment of society, and a flagrant disregard for the health of another segment, many of the attendees at the recent protests held signs that said, "I can't breathe"?

Interesting that funding for health care can be cut to make sure the police have enough riot gear. Seems like our governments are not doing the right thing either.

People tried being nice to get what they need/want. Officials did not listen and then wonder why the people are pissed.

They've been fudging the numbers all along. I don't trust our government to tell us the truth on this anymore. Actually I did not trust them before all this went down.

[Guest]

12 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

Interesting that funding for health care can be cut to make sure the police have enough riot gear. Seems like our governments are not doing the right thing either.

Very interesting, but completely unrelated to the post you quoted.  Unless I missed something.  Always a possibility.

 

17 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

People tried being nice to get what they need/want. Officials did not listen and then wonder why the people are pissed.

Anyone can get pissed off.  It's a basic human right.  Are you suggesting that if people don't get their own way it's okay to get pissed off and do something about it, even unto breaking the law?  And windows and heads?

 

20 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

They've been fudging the numbers all along. I don't trust our government to tell us the truth on this anymore. Actually I did not trust them before all this went down.

No, me neither.

[New World Disorder]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Very interesting, but completely unrelated to the post you quoted.  Unless I missed something.  Always a possibility.

 

Anyone can get pissed off.  It's a basic human right.  Are you suggesting that if people don't get their own way it's okay to get pissed off and do something about it, even unto breaking the law?  And windows and heads?

I am suggesting that people are tired of getting fucked over by a government that does not give a shit about them. Certain groups of people have been screaming about it for a long time, all falling on deaf ears.  Now you see the results of people not taking it anymore.

 

[PIK]

He thing that boggles my mind , is with this money spent in last 4 months or even 20 yrs they could not have put a water plant in all the native reserves that have bad water.

[Guest]

19 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

I am suggesting that people are tired of getting fucked over by a government that does not give a shit about them. Certain groups of people have been screaming about it for a long time, all falling on deaf ears.  Now you see the results of people not taking it anymore.

 

Yes, I can see that.  I'm wondering where you draw the line with the results.  Are you okay with upset people breaking the law?  If you are, does it matter what they are upset about?

[Army Guy]

43 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

I am suggesting that people are tired of getting fucked over by a government that does not give a shit about them. Certain groups of people have been screaming about it for a long time, all falling on deaf ears.  Now you see the results of people not taking it anymore.

 

This whole, I'm pissed and now I'm going to take some action is just an excuse to vent....., "people are tired of getting fucked over, so hey take to the streets for the riot and perhaps we can smash shit up, maybe do some looting"....and the sad part about it all is.... most of the damage is being done to private citizens stuff, you know the guy that has to pay his taxes as well, the same guy thats getting pissed as well, only now he has got arseholes causing him more grief….very little is being down to government stuff, like the government even cares they just get new stuff with the money you gave them, and if they need more they take more of your money..........lots of thought going into these protests....The only way to get heard is through peaceful protests, block Justins house, nobody in nobody out, except the pizza guy...........nothing ever gets done when their is a riot and people are getting killed....

Edited June 10, 2020 by Army Guy

[New World Disorder]

31 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Yes, I can see that.  I'm wondering where you draw the line with the results.  Are you okay with upset people breaking the law?  If you are, does it matter what they are upset about?

When politicians and other government officials start listening to the public. No I am not ok with people breaking the law, but if those that lead us are breaking the law and getting away with it, or with slaps on the wrist, why should anyone else play by the rules they break themselves?  It's not that much to ask that these people be held accountable for screwing the people. But yet we vote in the same fools. So maybe the way we do things need to change.

Anyways, it appears that the government had no idea how to handle this pandemic. The message is not consistent. Trudeau , Ford and Sheer take nice trips to see family which we were told not to do. And if we did, we risked a fine. That pompous black-faced , mask wearin, fake kneeling Trudeau is not getting any support from me. The economy took a big hit for the flattening. We saw where the numbers were with the deaths. People with major health issues, elder care homes. This also shed the light on the terrible conditions in those places, obviously many not run up to any kind of humane standard.

Yes it matters what people are upset about. Police brutality is a big thing, and only a small part of people's beefs.

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

When politicians and other government officials start listening to the public. No I am not ok with people breaking the law, but if those that lead us are breaking the law and getting away with it, or with slaps on the wrist, why should anyone else play by the rules they break themselves?  It's not that much to ask that these people be held accountable for screwing the people. But yet we vote in the same fools. So maybe the way we do things need to change.

Anyways, it appears that the government had no idea how to handle this pandemic. The message is not consistent. Trudeau , Ford and Sheer take nice trips to see family which we were told not to do. And if we did, we risked a fine. That pompous black-faced , mask wearin, fake kneeling Trudeau is not getting any support from me. The economy took a big hit for the flattening. We saw where the numbers were with the deaths. People with major health issues, elder care homes. This also shed the light on the terrible conditions in those places, obviously many not run up to any kind of humane standard.

Yes it matters what people are upset about. Police brutality is a big thing, and only a small part of people's beefs.

I don't know what you mean by that first sentence.  I was asking where you draw the line with behavior.  Are you saying anything is okay until you get your way?  Or certain members of the public get theirs, to be more accurate?

I am not okay with people breaking the law either, even if I agree with their cause.  No buts. 

I am most certainly not okay with someone hurting someone because they themselves are hurting, if the person they are hurting had nothing to do with their hurt.  No matter how much they hurt.

I think everyone should be accountable.  That includes politicians, of course. But if they do get away with something, the thing to do is redouble the effort to stop them, not go try and get away with it yourself, just because they did.

Edited June 10, 2020 by bcsapper

[Guest]

18 minutes ago, New World Disorder said:

This also shed the light on the terrible conditions in those places, obviously many not run up to any kind of humane standard.

Yes, I don't know what I'm going to do when I get old now.

[Rue]

10 hours ago, bcsapper said:

Yes, I don't know what I'm going to do when I get old now.

Develop a sense of humor because you spend most of your time peeing or forgetting  to pee. 

[OftenWrong]

6 minutes ago, Boges said:

Roughly half of Canada's deaths at less than a third of the population. 

Sweden also lags in testing. 

Ontario has been 100% up front about how much testing has been done, the demographics of who's got the disease and the most important that, how many people have been hospitalized. 

That simply does not move me. Damage is counted in many ways, not just the statistical difference on dead bodies. The variance you indicate is not huge, and well within certain errors so it can't be compared by those simple analysis alone. You know that, you've stated the issues such as density yourself.

Sorry, it does not justify shutting everything down.

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

What about the death tolls seen in countries that were forced to shut down? 

Sweden may have faired well at planning but they still saw a higher death toll than most countries and as this article shows, their economy might not have been spared afterall. 

https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/sweden-didn-t-lock-down-but-economy-to-plunge-anyway-1.4973195

Dunno. Without even doing any research, it's reasonable to assume if the whole world economy is effed, your single country standing alone will be effed too. In as much as it is tied to globalism. But smaller localized more self-sustaining economies would do better. Seeing higher death toll has many factors including age of the population, blah blah blah.

We are not doing any reporting nor taking polls nor even helping many in our society who suffer directly as a result of the shutdown. People committing suicide. Guns sold out. You name it the list is long, yet not talked about.

But not to say do nothing. Sweden has also shut some things down, just not to the extent we have. They maintained the critical infrastructure. They did the right things. Overall harm has to be considered for whole society.

[Boges]

11 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

We are not doing any reporting nor taking polls nor even helping many in our society who suffer directly as a result of the shutdown. People committing suicide. Guns sold out. You name it the list is long, yet not talked about.

Yeah and that's just assumed at this point. There's no evidence of any of that. Anyone that killed themselves over 3 months of some level of isolation would probably have been predisposed to depression anyway. 

 

Quote

But not to say do nothing. Sweden has also shut some things down, just not to the extent we have. They maintained the critical infrastructure. They did the right things. Overall harm has to be considered for whole society.

It's just that Sweden isn't some example of how society worked perfectly. AND most people who advocate for Sweden's solutions would outright reject that countries level of socialism and thoughts on end-of-life issues. 

I don't think there's anyone that doesn't think the economy should open up. I too think it's going too slowly at this point. We're not doing ourselves favours by isolating ourselves from everyone else. 

But the measures taken in March and April were 100% the right ones. The level of death seen would have been much higher and would have effected many more young people. 

[Boges]

In places that are seeing spike, I actually don't think you can rely on the numbers. (I include China here). 

You're just going to quit testing. Or, like Russia, quit claiming COVID-19 killed people. 

In Brazil the Trumpian President was denying COVID was an issue and now that it's something he can't deny, he says he's going to stop posting death figures. 

The level of testing in Japan is embarrassing, I don't believe any of the figures coming from there. 

[dialamah]

Never mind, redundant.

 

Edited June 10, 2020 by dialamah

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

The level of testing in Japan is embarrassing, I don't believe any of the figures coming from there. 

 

I don't believe the figures from any country.    It will be long after the fact that papers will be published in journals to attempt an enumeration of the real numbers, some merely based on year over year differences in deaths for the general population.

"This isn't a goddamn football game."

 

[OftenWrong]

31 minutes ago, Boges said:

Yeah and that's just assumed at this point. There's no evidence of any of that. Anyone that killed themselves over 3 months of some level of isolation would probably have been predisposed to depression anyway.

It's a bizarre position to take. There is plenty of evidence, but you need to ask for it specifically.

32 minutes ago, Boges said:

It's just that Sweden isn't some example of how society worked perfectly. AND most people who advocate for Sweden's solutions would outright reject that countries level of socialism and thoughts on end-of-life issues. 

This discussion is not about that. t's about the way they handled the virus. No massacre in Sweden, we can agree to that. And despite their economic problems, they kept their business open as much as they could. Regardless of politics, the results speak for themselves.

Looks like Sweden wins the Covid cup.

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

It's a bizarre position to take. There is plenty of evidence, but you need to ask for it specifically.

Why? There's plenty of evidence mass unemployment leads to suicide and levels of isolation from lonely people can't be good for mental health, but no one has demonstrated how much more harmful it is than say a deadly disease overtaking healthcare. 

Quote

 

Looks like Sweden wins the Covid cup.

 

How? They kept a few restaurants opened? They still saw economic contraction and more than double the deaths of other country. 

Also conservatives would pretty much reject all other things the Swedish value. It's easier for Socialist countries to take charge of public health. 

Edited June 10, 2020 by Boges

[OftenWrong]

8 minutes ago, Boges said:

Why? There's plenty of evidence mass unemployment leads to suicide and levels of isolation from lonely people can't be good for mental health, but no one has demonstrated how much more harmful it is than say a deadly disease overtaking healthcare. 

How? They kept a few restaurants opened? They still saw economic contraction and more than double the deaths of other country. 

Also conservatives would pretty much reject all other things the Swedish value. It's easier for Socialist countries to take charge of public health. 

Absurd assertion, double the deaths of any other country. I told you forget such simplistic attempt at social analyses. Per capita and nonsense. We have been over that enough, and if you still think it's that simple, forget it.

[Boges]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

Absurd assertion, double the deaths of any other country. I told you forget such simplistic attempt at social analyses. Per capita and nonsense. We have been over that enough, and if you still think it's that simple, forget it.

So you reject per capita death figures?

Sweden actually has four-times the deaths per million than Denmark and more than eight-times the death rate than Norway. 

If you reject per capita figures then you'll concede that the US has, by far, the worse COVID-19 figures. They have 2 million cases, no nation even has close to one million. 

 

[OftenWrong]

Quote

Also conservatives would pretty much reject all other things the Swedish value. It's easier for Socialist countries to take charge of public health. 

Oh really>? You speak for what conservatives would value. What kind of conservatives, are we all the same? Are we all "anti-social" through and through? Against the choice to die? Against abortion? Yes, the world is very simple.

Edited June 10, 2020 by OftenWrong

[OftenWrong]

1 minute ago, Boges said:

So you reject per capita death figures?

No, I reject your interpretation of their meaning, and their cause.

[Boges]

The only countries, that aren't micro-states, that have worse death rates than Sweden are Italy, Spain, the UK and Belgium. 

I'm pretty sure Brazil, Russia and China have worse rates too, but their numbers aren't really reliable. 

[Boges]

Just now, OftenWrong said:

No, I reject your interpretation of their meaning, and their cause.

So what would a more reliable interpretation be? 

That because Sweden didn't see a mass extinction, they did this better because they could keep some restaurants open? 

[OftenWrong]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

So what would a more reliable interpretation be? 

That because Sweden didn't see a mass extinction, they did this better because they could keep some restaurants open? 

Those things are not the issue that is causing the social harm. It's the closure of all non-emergency medical services, including many things that I would consider vital. I have brought them up many times here. We sought to protect our hospitals from being overwhelmed but the plan was too rigid. Shuttering x-ray diagnostic services and others made absolutely no sense, as it didn't contribute to maintaining a "Covid Ward". These are run in other departments, even in separate buildings.

Mental health services being shuttered is another issue I have raised. No serious effort to provide alternatives, just leave the problem. Ignore it. Media blackout on all things, whether it was intentional or not. Then we did the most predictable and worst move, politicize it.

Do I think data is manipulated? I wouldn't doubt it. Do I think data is misinterpreted? Oh yes.

Finally the dum dums we elected cannot think clearly and are lost in a dark cave, or rather, in their cottage resort where it's quiet peaceful and stress-free. They are unable to think a way out of this box. Their lack of concern is from a point of view that financially, we are screwed anyway so it won't matter if it's July, or August or September. They are not sensitive to the issues for common everyday people ordered to stay home.