Should Canada Retaliate Against China

[Michael Hardner]

23 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

1. Can we finally get some TV's and cellphones made in Canada?

2. What would happen if China got nuked... We would be out cold from the supply shocks.

3. It's time we boost our domestic industries, and stop just buying from China when it's convenient.

4. I would like to be nicer towards China, but I'll no longer give them the benefit of the doubt, until they start having elections.

5. They don't deserve it.

1. Who is going to make them ?

2. Yes that is correct.

3. We are not competitive with them, in many industries.

4. What is this conflation of 'being nice' with economic activity ?  Do you consider yourself being 'nice' to Esso when you buy gas ?  It's Economics 101 - mutual benefit.  

5. 

 

 

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, ProudConservative said:

1. China is turning into a despotic rouge regime,

2. Why did the Chinese become mad about micro-managing people's lives? If they tried this crap in the States, they would have a civil war.

1. Yes, but only since 1948.  Before that it was a series of despotic EMPERORS since Qin Shi Huang about 200 BC

2. They are a closed society and a dictatorship.
 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

As much as I hate the term, "constructive engagement" is a thing that I believe will eventually bring our practices closer, culturally. 

Oh? And who is likely to be have more influence in such an engagement? The country with 37 million people or the country with 1.4 billion people?

I don't WANT to have our cultural practices move closer to that of China, thanks.

[Yzermandius19]

7 hours ago, cougar said:

And how do you do that when you have no alternative product made in North America?

China is not to blame.  It is the A-holes on this continent who outsourced production there.

There are alternative products in other nations, you don't have to buy North American to not buy Chinese. Don't want to support China, buy from China's competitors, problem solved.

Edited March 15, 2020 by Yzermandius19

[Moonlight Graham]

17 hours ago, jacee said:

There's that word.

Some boys, always with the fighting.

Fighting is sometimes necessary as a last resort to defend yourself.  Pacifism leads to victimization.  You can lay down and take it up the butt from the Chinese or you can fight back.  Or you can pretend to lay down and be peaceful while others fight to defend you while you maintain the moral high ground.

Fuck China.

[Moonlight Graham]

15 hours ago, eyeball said:

So is it safe to assume pipelines aimed in China's direction are basically off the table now? I mean, what's the point right?

What I would do if I were the POTUS is gather all western countries, form a democratic economic bloc, and use sanctions to obliterate their economy any time the Chinese get out of line.  That can include Alberta oil.  They would submit to our will or be crushed.  The west is rich enough where we could survive any trade war against China.  They have no leverage.  People don't understand the threat that China has become.  I thought for a long time we could be nice and trade with them, they've made it clear they don't want that, it's a shame.  I';d do the same to Russia, but we don't trade with them as much so we have less leverage.

[Michael Hardner]

8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1. What I would do if I were the POTUS is gather all western countries, form a democratic economic bloc, and use sanctions to obliterate their economy any time the Chinese get out of line. 

2. They would submit to our will or be crushed.  The west is rich enough where we could survive any trade war against China.  

3. They have no leverage.  People don't understand the threat that China has become. 

4. I thought for a long time we could be nice and trade with them

1. You are missing the bidirectional nature of these relationships.  US corporations make a great deal of money selling to, selling in and manufacturing in China.  They also invest in the US and finance the US government debt.

2. The last trade war was fought to about a draw.  They aren't as vulnerable as you would think.

3. Those two sentences kind of contradict.

4. Again the idea that trading is 'being nice' is just wrongheaded.

[eyeball]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

People don't understand the threat that China has become.  I thought for a long time we could be nice and trade with them, they've made it clear they don't want that, it's a shame.  I';d do the same to Russia, but we don't trade with them as much so we have less leverage.

WTF there isn't to understand is what I don't get.  I've been saying for years we should be taking a hard line against trade with any dictatorship and especially China's. Fortunately we don't need to have leverage over dictators to make a difference.  Democracies like ours can and should exert leverage over wealthy investors in our societies that insist on continuing to do business with dictators - we just follow the money like we do when figuring out any other network of terror and stop it in it's tracks.

How hard can it be?

 

 

 

 

 

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. You are missing the bidirectional nature of these relationships.  US corporations make a great deal of money selling to, selling in and manufacturing in China.  They also invest in the US and finance the IS government debt.

2. The last trade war was fought to about a draw.  They aren't as vulnerable as you would think.

1. Yes we make a lot of money through their trade.  A ton.  I understand that very well.  But my point is #2

2.  Most of China is still quite poor on a per capita basis.  We are far, far richer than they are.  Even if we are equally dependent, in an all-out trade war we would outlast them.  It would upend our markets and world markets in the short-term, bigtime.  It would be criticized massively because people see the short-term pain but not longterm gain. Trump tried it on a very small scale.  I would develop the plan for brutal sanctions with the rest of the West, I would then give China one more chance with a threat of economic war.  They would probably not budge, I would them implement the plan.  There would probably have to be a ton of preparation in order to make sure necessities were able to be produced outside China before they were even informed of our intentions.

The Chinese as government policy have a blueprint for world domination by 2049, the centennial anniversary of the founding of the People’s Republic of China.  They are fascists, they want national and cultural revival and believe they are destined to rule the world, as they used to hundreds of years ago.  They are the new Nazis, but they are far more patient.  They won't use military might, they will use economic dominance and economic colonialism.  They're depending on the status quo so they can buy up our debt, own more and more of our resources and industries, and send as many of their 1.4 billion people to immigrate to our countries as we will allow (many who stay loyal to China).  They want to dominate our IT systems, 5G networks etc.  The Chinese now own IBM (now known as Lenovo).  Most US/Western IT professionals use Lenovo laptops, they are the best by far.  They're colonizing us not by force, but because we allow it.  We're busy infighting, while the Chinese have a single unified goal towards national resurgence.  You have to remember that they don't have tons of private industry or human rights like us, they are a dictatorship which have many state industries and can control any business they wish or your family will disappear, and they will use any business they wish to infiltrate Western businesses & government.  Huawei is an example.  Don't take my word for it on any of this

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johnmauldin/2019/11/12/chinas-grand-plan-to-take-over-the-world/#27f798215ab5

https://www.axios.com/china-plan-global-superpower-xi-jinping-5954481e-02c8-4e19-a50c-cd2a90e4894f.html

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/When_China_Rules_the_World

https://www.cfr.org/backgrounder/made-china-2025-threat-global-trade

https://www.atlanticcouncil.org/content-series/inflection-points/the-world-china-wants/

"By now, there is little remaining doubt that China’s continued rise marks the most significant geopolitical event shaping the 21^st century. Yet US and European officials – mired in issues ranging from Trump administration immigration gyrations to Brexit – have failed to give this mother of all inflection points enough attention.

Some are in denial about the fundamental change China’s rise may bring to the global order of institutions and principles established by the United States and its allies after World War II. Others concede that the structural stress between a rising China and an incumbent United States is the defining danger of our times, yet they offer neither an engagement or containment strategy worthy of this epochal challenge.

That has produced the worst of all worlds.

Fearful that the United States has grown more determined to undermine his country’s rise, President Xi has doubled down on his determination to strengthen the Communist party’s hold domestically while advancing China’s global influence."

 

Edited March 16, 2020 by Moonlight Graham

[bush_cheney2004]

10 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

 ...The Chinese now own IBM (now known as Lenovo).  Most US/Western IT professionals use Lenovo laptops, they are the best by far.  They're colonizing us not by force, but because we allow it.  We're busy infighting, while the Chinese have a single unified goal towards national resurgence.  Don't take my word for it:
 

 

No, the Chinese now own the much smaller laptop and low-end server divisions sold to Lenovo.   IBM is still an $80 billion, American owned corporation operating in 170 nations.  IBM is also not Canadian owned.

Edited March 16, 2020 by bush_cheney2004

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

WTF there isn't to understand is what I don't get.  I've been saying for years we should be taking a hard line against trade with any dictatorship and especially China's. Fortunately we don't need to have leverage over dictators to make a difference.  Democracies like ours can and should exert leverage over wealthy investors in our societies that insist on continuing to do business with dictators - we just follow the money like we do when figuring out any other network of terror and stop it in it's tracks.

How hard can it be?

You're playing a different game.  You want to make the world better by stopping human rights abuses.  That's an admirable goal.  But we just need to survive.  Worrying about the human rights abuses in China is something we don't have the luxury of worrying about.  Maybe 20 years ago we did.  China wants to dominate the world.  Imagine the human rights abuses that would occur if China becomes the new global hegemon.  Xi Jinping makes every POTUS look like Gandhi.

[Moonlight Graham]

11 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 IBM is also not Canadian owned.

I own some of IBM and Lenovo lol.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Moonlight Graham said:

I own some of IBM and Lenovo lol.

 

You own common shares...not the corporation.    There are plenty of other valid examples of Canadian subsidiaries being owned by China.

IBM is not one of them.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

You own common shares...not the corporation.    There are plenty of other valid examples of Canadian subsidiaries being owned by China.

IBM is not one of them.

Yes I stand corrected on IBM.

[Argus]

14 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I own some of IBM and Lenovo lol.

Why do you own shares in a Chinese owned company while saying we should shun Chinese owned companies?

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

Why do you own shares in a Chinese owned company while saying we should shun Chinese owned companies?

Actually I don't think I own Lenovo since they're Chinese, not sure how much im invested there.  Probably have some IBM.  I have no idea I don't buy individual stocks.

[jacee]

21 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What I would do if I were the POTUS is gather all western countries, form a democratic economic bloc, and use sanctions to obliterate their economy any time the Chinese get out of line.  That can include Alberta oil.  They would submit to our will or be crushed.  The west is rich enough where we could survive any trade war against China.  They have no leverage.  People don't understand the threat that China has become.  I thought for a long time we could be nice and trade with them, they've made it clear they don't want that, it's a shame.  I';d do the same to Russia, but we don't trade with them as much so we have less leverage.

MG, I'm not as polite as some others here because I'm old and thoroughly impatient with such nonsense thinking that puts us all at risk.

How many wars have been fought, people killed by such patriarchal idiocy?!! Look who's POTUS  ffs! Now that's a clear sign that patriarchy has truly reached the bottom of the barrel. 

We need a war against stupid aggression, and that does not reside just in China.

Edited March 16, 2020 by jacee

[Zeitgeist]

Set conditions on trade in a range of areas. 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

MG, I'm not as polite as some others here because I'm old and thoroughly impatient with such nonsense thinking that puts us all at risk.

How many wars have been fought, people killed by such patriarchal idiocy?!!

So we should have surrendered against Hitler? Not fought him at all? Same goes for Stalin? Should we refuse to fight anyone who decides to attack us?

And if you dismiss the idea they might attack us, give us a reason why not - other than them being sure we would fight if they did. Do you think Putin and Shi are just all around nice guys?

[jacee]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

So we should have surrendered against Hitler? Not fought him at all? Same goes for Stalin? Should we refuse to fight anyone who decides to attack us?

And if you dismiss the idea they might attack us, give us a reason why not - other than them being sure we would fight if they did. Do you think Putin and Shi are just all around nice guys?

I think domestic self- sufficiency is important,

And peace. 

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, jacee said:

MG, I'm not as polite as some others here because I'm old and thoroughly impatient with such nonsense thinking that puts us all at risk.

How many wars have been fought, people killed by such patriarchal idiocy?!! Look who's POTUS  ffs! Now that's a clear sign that patriarchy has truly reached the bottom of the barrel. 

We need a war against stupid aggression, and that does not reside just in China.

I get your point.  Trump is patriarchal, but interestingly enough he's probably the least militarily aggressive POTUS since WWII.  I find that odd for a man who tries to manhandle world leaders with aggressive handshakes.

Anyways, I don't want to lay a finger on China, not one bullet.  If you're offended by my aggressive language you should be aghast what China does, and what they will do when they are the world's largest economic power.  They're already pushing us around and silencing Western human rights critics, and making the families of ex-pats in Canada disappear when someone raises a peep.

[Moonlight Graham]

7 minutes ago, jacee said:

I think domestic self- sufficiency is important,

And peace. 

What would you have done vs Hitler, when peace was impossible?

[jacee]

11 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

What would you have done vs Hitler, when peace was impossible?

Oh stop. Lol 

 

[Argus]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

I think domestic self- sufficiency is important,

And peace. 

That's nice. You probably like motherhood, too. But you didn't answer the question.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Argus

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, jacee said:

Oh stop. Lol

Answer the question please.

China are the Nazis of the 21st century.  Bent on world domination through national and cultural rebirth/resurgence.  A brutal totalitarian dictator in a country with no concept of human rights with massive global power on track to eclipse the USA is not a good combo.  We shouldn't appease them or help their rise.  They'll make us yearn for the good old days of the "evil" American empire.

Edited March 17, 2020 by Moonlight Graham