Pipeline protestors need to be jailed

[Guest]

27 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Her leaking issue refers to ConEd and a few outfits that handle major US cities on the East Coast...old leaky systems. Very old leaky systems...

Here in Canada leaks are generally not accepted and if one had one...one would know it as it STINKS due to Bromine/Methanethiol additives..

Yeah, methane leaks and venting are things that can be addressed to reduce impact, and we are actually doing that right now. 

There's an ideological opposition to using natural gas instead of coal because it allows oil and gas companies to continue to prosper a little, and we can't have that.  (Strangely enough, I have heard the same said about carbon capture technology)

Natural gas, from the twinkle in the geologist's eye to the comfort of the end user, is better for climate change than coal.  That's a fact, and any replacement of the latter by the former will help.  Not as much as dispensing with them both, of course, but until we come up with a plan for that that is more than just wishful thinking, it will at least keep us heading in the right direction. 

[Zeitgeist]

37 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

America has the best of both worlds, take the best and leave the rest, while driving the economic migrants across the border into the frozen socialist welfare gulag no man's land

 

Well Trudeau has been lax on the border, yet Canada is seeing growth fed by immigration.  Not all of that immigration is good, but Canada represents an open, free, and tolerant society.  The perception of the US is shifting more towards a place of exclusion and border walls.  I can understand some of that, but I know Canada has attracted some international talent that perceived the US as less tolerant.  Upsides and downsides. Canada is hardly a no man’s land and is no welfare gulag. Unemployment is low and the cities are booming.  You can have a great life here. I do worry for the remote parts of the country and the provinces most dependant on resource development. They are being “shut down” by an ignorant fringe of protesters.  Trudeau has given these undermining forces far too much leverage.  

Edited March 8, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Canada represents an open, free, and tolerant society. 

Speech banning, gun grabbing, hysterical nonsense peddling Iron Curtain against American Freedom which despises any boat rocking whatsoever, demanding absolute conformity to the totalitarian dogma of the foppish Elites, propagated from their Ivory Towers in Toronto.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, Zeitgeist said:

Natural gas is substantially cleaner that burning coal or oil.  Just switching coal burning power generation to natural gas would slash greenhouse gasses significantly.  You can’t provide that amount of reliable power with renewables unless your patch of Earth is blessed with multiple watercourses and changes in elevation.  

Government are the leaders that voters decide should lead, nothing more nor less.  

You haven't said a word about methane. Why is that?  You don't believe it, don't care, don't know what?

Whatever it is why do I get the sense you'll happily spend the next 30 years denying it quibbling over it prevaricating about it and of course leaking, flaring and ignoring it?

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Speech banning, gun grabbing, hysterical nonsense peddling Iron Curtain against American Freedom which despises any boat rocking whatsoever, demanding absolute conformity to the totalitarian dogma of the foppish Elites, propagated from their Ivory Towers in Toronto.

Get real.  How do you think the Yanks would tolerate these protests?  
 

On guns America is an outlier.  The Japanese think American gun tolerance is insane.  They’re right.  An over-abundance of legal guns that have no useful purpose apart from killing people rapidly and easily is a public danger and an infringement on freedom.  A society that can’t protect its citizens is dysfunctional, which is the case in many US inner-city neighbourhoods.  I sometimes feel when I’m down there that I should buy an assault rifle, where a patch on my eye, and call myself Snake as in Escape from New York.  Keep that shit out of Canada.  This year was a wake up call for Toronto.  

[Zeitgeist]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

You haven't said a word about methane. Why is that?  You don't believe it, don't care, don't know what?

Whatever it is why do I get the sense you'll happily spend the next 30 years denying it quibbling over it prevaricating about it and of course leaking, flaring and ignoring it?

Methane is released from the ground as carcasses decompose and from all animals including people when they fart.  Ban farting?

We aren’t fracking our natural gas and our plants haven’t had major gas leak issues.  

I do think that providing affordable plant based protein would cut down on the number of cattle farts and would clear less rainforest.  

Edited March 8, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

...  Keep that shit out of Canada.  This year was a wake up call for Toronto.  

 

Too late....gun homicide rate is higher in Toronto than in NYC.

Got BLM protests too.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Get real.  How do you think the Yanks would tolerate these protests?  
 

Depends which state, depends what they are protesting.  

What the Bundy clan can get away with in Nevada they might not be able to get away with in Oregon

What the Antifa can get away with in Oregon, they might not get away with in Wyoming

America is not a monolith, Manifest Destiny is a Union of many republics.

[Zeitgeist]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Too late....gun homicide rate is higher in Toronto than in NYC.

Got BLM protests too.

Not too late but might be soon.  New York is a relatively safe US city these days.  Toronto’s gun homicide rates are still nothing compared to Chicago and similar sized US cities.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Not too late but might be soon.  New York is a relatively safe US city these days.  Toronto’s gun homicide rates are still nothing compared to Chicago and similar sized US cities.  

 

...and yet, America's trains were still running on time.

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

...and yet, America's trains were still running on time.

Well they’re running on time again.  That was a 2.5 week issue, but we can’t afford more of this.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Well they’re running on time again.  That was a 2.5 week issue, but we can’t afford more of this.  

 

Agreed....as another member pointed out, Canada is not very robust when it comes to such matters.  

...and it has the weakest leadership in recent memory to deal with it.

[DogOnPorch]

Natural gas is methane...plus other trace gases. A source of helium, as well.

[eyeball]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Methane is released from the ground as carcasses decompose and from all animals including people when they fart.  Ban farting?

No, ban the methane that contains carbon-14.

You would know that if you'd read the articles provided so....crystal clear evidence that you just don't give a rat's ass.

This is why there's so few climate action options other than blockades and civil disobedience left. You people have insisted on staying blinkered for decades and there's no reason whatsoever to believe you'll ever change.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, eyeball said:

...This is why there's so few climate action options other than blockades and civil disobedience left. You people have insisted on staying blinkered for decades and there's no reason whatsoever to believe you'll ever change.

 

Which means they have already lost.   

[eyeball]

14 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Which means they have already lost.   

Yeah but they don't know when to quit.

[Zeitgeist]

20 minutes ago, eyeball said:

No, ban the methane that contains carbon-14.

You would know that if you'd read the articles provided so....crystal clear evidence that you just don't give a rat's ass.

This is why there's so few climate action options other than blockades and civil disobedience left. You people have insisted on staying blinkered for decades and there's no reason whatsoever to believe you'll ever change.

Natural gas produces half the greenhouse gasses of coal.  Period.  

[Dougie93]

18 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Which means they have already lost.   

They can cripple the Canadian economy, but the Post National State is literally the only oil exporter on earth which is going to put up with that.

[eyeball]

7 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Natural gas produces half the greenhouse gasses of coal.  Period. 

GHG's that are up to 25 times more potent.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Natural gas produces half the greenhouse gasses of coal.  Period.  

This is the part where no matter what you present it won't be good enough, they'll just keep moving the goalposts, these people are not environmentalists they are luddites

In the end, most countries will have to crush them mercilessly, though they may end up ruling the Post National State, because it's not actually a country, by definition.

[bush_cheney2004]

13 minutes ago, eyeball said:

Yeah but they don't know when to quit.

 

They don't have national support....no massive environmental rights marches....no historic social change.

 

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

They don't have national support....no massive environmental rights marches....no historic social change.

 

They don't need it, all they have to do is slow things down and keep the threat of that hanging,  in order to drive investment out of Canada

Berkshire-Hathaway just pulled $4 billion out of Quebec due to "political instability in Canada"

[jacee]

15 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Natural gas is substantially cleaner that burning coal or oil.  Just switching coal burning power generation to natural gas would slash greenhouse gasses significantly.  

That's now known to be nonsense.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/03/booming-lng-industry-could-be-as-bad-for-climate-as-coal-experts-warn

 Gas has lower CO2 emissions than black coal when burned for electricity, but LNG developments also leak methane, which is a relatively short-lived gas that lasts in the atmosphere about 12 years but still has a warming power about 28 times greater than the same amount of CO2 when calculated over a century.

Global Energy Monitor researchers found fugitive methane emissions from new LNG extraction and processing would be expected to have as large or larger global heating impact than proposed coal power expansion.

Edited March 8, 2020 by jacee
Reduce quote

[Zeitgeist]

44 minutes ago, jacee said:

That's now known to be nonsense.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/jul/03/booming-lng-industry-could-be-as-bad-for-climate-as-coal-experts-warn

Natural gas is at times described as a transition fuel in the response to the climate crisis as it has about half the carbon dioxide emissions of black coal when burned to generate electricity. That argument has been rejected by the head of the International Energy Agency and science bodies warning the world needs to rapidly move to clean energy and industries.

Nace said it was difficult to compare emissions from coal and gas given their different nature. Gas has lower CO2 emissions than black coal when burned for electricity, but LNG developments also leak methane, which is a relatively short-lived gas that lasts in the atmosphere about 12 years but still has a warming power about 28 times greater than the same amount of CO2 when calculated over a century.

A recent study found the level of atmospheric methane has increased significantly since 2007 after a relative flat period. Scientists are unsure why.

Global Energy Monitor researchers found fugitive methane emissions from new LNG extraction and processing would be expected to have as large or larger global heating impact than proposed coal power expansion.

“The truth about LNG is nobody knows what is happening across the supply chain,” Nace said. “But it’s very easy to see leakage of 2% to 3% and if that much gets away into the atmosphere it is significant – it gives a jolt of warming.”

“If that much gets away into the atmosphere”

”If” is the keyword.  

The new regulations brought in by Canada as of January, 2020 should prevent this problem.  Read the article about this on the International Energy Agency website you cited.  Here is a passage:

”In addition, upstream facilities that produce or receive at least 60,000 standard m³(around 45 metric tonnes) of natural gas each year must inspect particular components three times a year for leaks, using a portable monitoring or optical gas-imaging instrument. Operators must repair actionable leaks within 30 days or during the next planned shutdown. Offshore facilities must monitor leaks in real-time with a gas detection system.”

Just because problems may emerge doesn’t mean they can’t be solved.  You don’t shut down an important component of our economy because of fixable problems.

Edited March 8, 2020 by Zeitgeist

[jacee]

15 hours ago, bcsapper said:

One can fix leaks.  It's a good way of combating climate change.  Fix the leaks in natural gas production and replace coal with it as much as possible.  I could get right behind that.

I also would never presume to tell indigenous people what is best for them.  That's why I support those who want the pipeline.  They seem to know what they are doing.  They don't need outsiders telling them what's good for them.

Fiddling with methane leaks while the world burns ... ya, no. There isn't time. There are better choices. 

You contradict yourself, because supporting one faction against another is a colonialist divide and conquer strategy, and you definitely do "presume to tell indigenous people what is best for them."

Indigenous communities will decide for themselves, in their own way. CGL's bribes are hard to turn down in intentionally impoverished communities, but the ancient pull of solidarity and cultural continuity among their people is very strong too. 

It remains to be seen. 'Elected' Band Council members all belong to a Clan too, so all have input through the traditional governance model too. I think it is very likely that a united nation will emerge behind the hereditary Chiefs in the current (overdue) Federal government task of clarifying Wet'suet'en rights and title. 

Then we'll see what they collectively decide about the pipeline. An alternate route avoiding ecologically and culturally sensitive areas may still provide the necessary way forward.

Edited March 8, 2020 by jacee