Canada's NATO shell game , guess how much we spend ?

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Yzermandius19 said:

China's navy is not bigger than the US navy, nor is it anywhere near as powerful. Building shitty ships doesn't turn you into naval power to rival America, that's not how it works.

China's navy IS bigger than the US navy in number of ships and getting bigger. And China and Russia are getting very cozy together, raising the possibility of them acting together.

And as Stalin said, quantity has a quality all its own.

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

1 minute ago, Argus said:

China's navy IS bigger than the US navy and getting bigger. And China and Russia are getting very cozy together, raising the possibility of them acting together.

And as Stalin said, quantity has a quality all its own.

 

 

Like 100-1 kill ratios at Kap Yong.

So many dead Chicoms that you could walk for a 1000 meters on dead Reds.

[Argus]

2 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Historically, Red China has been a dismal opponent in any war it has fought in.

Human wave attacks to make-up for lack of tactics...

Ninety MiGs (shot down) vs a single F-86 Sabre...that sort of result.

 

But this time it'd be different...they swear.

China's military has always been extremely backward compared to western forces. But they've been making huge strides in catching up, using money the West has paid them, and delving deep into every computer in the United States. By now they've almost certainly got the entire blueprints and documentation for every American weapon system, either in operation or planned. The US is generations behind the Chinese and Russians in cyber warfare, especially in being able to defend its own secrets, which are farmed out to hundreds of private companies who do little or nothing to protect their servers. Not that the military does much either.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

China's navy IS bigger than the US navy and getting bigger. And China and Russia are getting very cozy together, raising the possibility of them acting together.

And as Stalin said, quantity has a quality all its own.

 

China only has A2AD capability, the PLAN can't project power far beyond their coasts, they are no threat to the US Navy.

 

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Boges said:

Putin will be thrilled.

NATO is virtually unarmed anyway. Only the US and Turkey have size and power, and neither can be relied on against the Russians.

[Dougie93]

Just now, Argus said:

China's military has always been extremely backward compared to western forces. But they've been making huge strides in catching up,

 No they're not.

The Chinese could even handle Japan never mind America,

 

[Dougie93]

Just now, Argus said:

NATO is virtually unarmed anyway. Only the US and Turkey have size and power, and neither can be relied on against the Russians.

The Russians can't project power beyond their Near Abroad.

They're not the Soviets, there is no more Warsaw Pact, the Russians are no threat to anybody except the Baltic States and Georgia.

The Russians couldn't even take Ukraine never mind Western Europe.

The only threat posed by Russia is thermonuclear, which NATO cannot address, only the American TRIAD matters in terms of dealing with Russia

[Dougie93]

The biggest strategic threat to Canada is that the loonie leftist Anti-American Post National State is being viewed with increasing hostility in America.

The threat to Canada is that Canada is in no man's land and America has very little interest in saving Canada from itself.

The result is that Canada is going to get frozen out, at the border, slowly but surely, which will impact Canadians where it hurts, in their pocket books.

[bush_cheney2004]

14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

China only has A2AD capability, the PLAN can't project power far beyond their coasts, they are no threat to the US Navy.

 

 

Agreed...China is still incapable of sustained power projection at sea beyond its region.   China is only one of several world-wide threats that the U.S. Navy routinely engages and has done so for a very long time ( e.g. "gunboat diplomacy").   Canada/NATO defense spending only figures narrowly (by treaty) in this context for total American military power.

Edited December 4, 2019 by bush_cheney2004

[Dougie93]

Just now, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Agreed...China is still incapable of sustained power projection at sea beyond its region.   China is only one of several world-wide threats that the U.S. Navy routinely engages and has done so for a very long time.   Canada/NATO defense spending only figures narrowly (by treaty) in this context for American military power.

They're not really interested in a head to head fight with us, they know they would get sunk, they are trying to establish a precedent in the China Seas under UNCLOS

This is not going to effect American Freedom of Navigation which is backed by overwhelming force, but they could bully other countries instead, like Canada.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Trump is a stooge of Putin. Period. His handler is the father of Melania Trump. He is a compromised, corrupted stooge playing Putin's divide and conquer song and dance. If any US President has genuine concerns about NATO and lack of spending the way to express that is back channel through mutual business interests and diplomats. Any idiot knows if you act the baboon in public embarrassing your allies all you do is alienate them not win them over.

 

Then so were Obama and Bush...don't let objective understanding of history get drowned by your turgid and maniacal hatred of Trump.   

[Dougie93]

It's funny how these Canadians are so eager to see America get its comeuppance, when that is what is going to happen to Canada.

Canada is the one getting  bullied by China.

The Chinese are not going to war with America, but they could beat the shit out of Canada without America going to war for Canada neither.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

They're not really interested in a head to head fight with us, they know they would get sunk, they are trying to establish a precedent in the China Seas under UNCLOS

This is not going to effect American Freedom of Navigation which is backed by overwhelming force, but they could bully other countries instead, like Canada.

 

Right, as we have already seen, China will not confront the U.S. directly, preferring instead to go after the much weaker proxies like Canada.   Canadian policy makers already know the drill...."seat at the table"..."honest broker"...."peacekeeping"..."soft power"...yada, yada, yada.

...all of this long before Trump came along.

[DrYouth]

50 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The biggest strategic threat to Canada is that the loonie leftist Anti-American Post National State is being viewed with increasing hostility in America.

The threat to Canada is that Canada is in no man's land and America has very little interest in saving Canada from itself.

The result is that Canada is going to get frozen out, at the border, slowly but surely, which will impact Canadians where it hurts, in their pocket books.

The loonie left is being viewed with hostility in America within America.

The loonie left is identified as California, Portland and New England.... It is viewed as the Ivy League and CNN, Huffpo, Vanity Fair and the New York Times...

Canada is not on the radar any more than Sweden and Norway.

It's a civil war not an external war with the loonie left.

And just like the War of Independence and the Civil War... Canada will continue to be flooded with refugees.

Same as it ever was.

Edited December 4, 2019 by DrYouth

[Dougie93]

37 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Right, as we have already seen, China will not confront the U.S. directly, preferring instead to go after the much weaker proxies like Canada.   Canadian policy makers already know the drill...."seat at the table"..."honest broker"...."peacekeeping"..."soft power"...yada, yada, yada.

...all of this long before Trump came along.

Indeed, Trump is just the latest in a long line of messengers, but Canada never listens.

The threat from China is not conventional, it's asymmetrical, and the threat is not to a Hegemonic Superpower like America, but rather the little fish like Canada.

[Dougie93]

16 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

The loonie left is being viewed with hostility in America within America.

The loonie left is identified as California, Portland and New England.... It is viewed as the Ivy League and CNN, Huffpo, Vanity Fair and the New York Times...

Canada is not on the radar any more than Sweden and Norway.

It's a civil war not an external war with the loonie left.

And just like the War of Independence and the Civil War... Canada will continue to be flooded with refugees.

Same as it ever was.

But they are Americans, they are not going to get frozen out at the border, whereas Canada is.

California is inside Fortress America, Canada is not.

Canada is totally dependent on access at the border, Sweden and Norway are not.

Canada is in a uniquely bad position and its getting worse, because only Canada has the relationship it has with America, so only Canada will suffer.

And deservedly so, Canadians are hostile to America, let them suffer the consequences of that hostility.

You should not think that you are proxy for a Californian, that's la-la-land.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

At the end of the day, America First is not about quid pro quo.

It's not about what my country can do for me, it's about what I can do to defend and uphold the Declaration of Independence.

There's nothing to stand for in Canada, there's nothing to fight for in Canada, Canada has become an empty void without meaning nor purpose.

Canada is sad, Canada throws itself under the bus, can't save Canada from itself.

Americans are the better people, even the Democrats are better than pathetic Canadians and their fake country living by other peoples leave.

There's plenty of Democrats abandoning their own party, there's plenty of Democrats who serve in the US military, not all Democrats are my foes.

Case in point, if the Democrats ran Major Tulsi Gabbard as their candidate, I would vote for her over Trump, even if meant giving up 6 to 3 at the SCOTUS.

Come back to the center, dump the Bernie Bros, give me Lady JFK, and we can do business again, Democrats.

Dutch Reagan was a New Dealer,  we Republicans love him still, come back to Morning in America, Democrats, and all will be forgiven.

 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[DrYouth]

1 hour ago, Dougie93 said:

But they are Americans, they are not going to get frozen out at the border, whereas Canada is.

California is inside Fortress America, Canada is not.

Canada is totally dependent on access at the border, Sweden and Norway are not.

Canada is in a uniquely bad position and its getting worse, because only Canada has the relationship it has with America, so only Canada will suffer.

And deservedly so, Canadians are hostile to America, let them suffer the consequences of that hostility.

You should not think that you are proxy for a Californian, that's la-la-land.

I think you're overstating this.

You hate the Loonie Left... and you hate Canada for falling into the arms of the Loonie Left...

But the Loonie Left has captured much of Europe, half of the USA, the better part of the former British Empire and is on the move throughout the western world...

It's far bigger than Canada.

[Boges]

2 hours ago, Argus said:

NATO is virtually unarmed anyway. Only the US and Turkey have size and power, and neither can be relied on against the Russians.

In 1939 the US had a tiny army. Necessity sometimes requires action. But the fact that the Alliance exists means that any action will be met with the combined might of all nations in NATO. 

[Dougie93]

3 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

I think you're overstating this.

You hate the Loonie Left... and you hate Canada for falling into the arms of the Loonie Left...

But the Loonie Left has captured much of Europe, half of the USA, the better part of the former British Empire and is on the move throughout the western world...

It's far bigger than Canada.

Hence why I rally round my colors, the Declaration of Independence preamble and associated light of civilization itself.

You do as you please, Jelly Fish, I'm not trying to recruit you, you can stand with the Post National State, nobody is stopping you.

America First, Canada is no consequence, Canada is a big nothing, Puerto Rico North is a stretch, Canada doesn't even amount to that.

It's funny when Canada is described as being the 51st State, as if, Canada could never amount to that, more accurate to call it Soviet Union Lite.

 

[Dougie93]

Just now, Boges said:

In 1939 the US had a tiny army. Necessity sometimes requires action. But the fact that the Alliance exists means that any action will be met with the combined might of all nations in NATO. 

NATO only exists as an American proxy, it's laughable to watch you Canadian free riders prattle on about things you don't even understand.

 

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

NATO only exists as an American proxy, it's laughable to watch you Canadian free riders prattle on about things you don't even understand.

Isn't that what the whole point of the Cold War? US and their proxies vs USSR and their proxies. 

The US works to become the world's only Super Power and then bitches about it because other nations aren't as committed to it. They have Healthcare to pay for. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Boges

[DrYouth]

3 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Hence why I rally round my colors, the Declaration of Independence preamble and associated light of civilization itself.

You do as you please, Jelly Fish, I'm not trying to recruit you, you can stand with the Post National State, nobody is stopping you.

America First, Canada is no consequence, Canada is a big nothing, Puerto Rico North is a stretch, Canada doesn't even amount to that.

It's funny when Canada is described as being the 51st State, as if, Canada could never amount to that, more accurate to call it Soviet Union Lite.

 

Such a brave knight on such a brave quest.

Go ahead and throw Canada under the bus in your Quixotic quest against the Loonie Left...

You are proudly tilting at windmills... abandoning Canada isn't going to win you this war.

You even have Sancho Panza along for the ride.

[jacee]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

NATO only exists as an American proxy, it's laughable to watch you Canadian free riders prattle on about things you don't even understand.

 

When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

When you have a gun, everything looks like a war.

Such a limited life you lead, dougie.

[Dougie93]

Just now, Boges said:

Isn't that what the whole point of the Cold War? US vs USSR and proxies. 

The US works to become the world's only Super Power and then bitches about it. 

The Warsaw Pact is gone, there's no need for America to defend a trace in Europe, it doesn't exist anymore, Canada is clinging to something which was gone long time ago.