Canada's NATO shell game , guess how much we spend ?

[Army Guy]

They have already done that in Afghanistan, and it did get a hit on the media for a couple of weeks, it was not until enough soldiers died that new equipment started to arrive, things like armored jeeps " or so they said"  but once the ambassador got blown up in the new jeeps  things changed again, armored vehs and later even tanks...old Leo Ia4 with new ceramic armor...only 70 tech, but it was better than fake jeeps...but no air conditioning temps would reach 70 plus degrees inside the tank, guys would pass out due to heat exhaustion... but hey whats a few 45 ton tanks going off the road every once in a while....and once again they went scrambling to buy new equipment we should have had before..... the new LEOIIA6M arrived the biggest dude on the block, 75 tons plus of pure killing machine....but we only bought 20 of them.. we loved them, but you can't have happy grunts right....

[Dougie93]

9 hours ago, Army Guy said:

.but we only bought 20 of them.. we loved them, but you can't have happy grunts right....

They'll be on the chopping block soon enough, there are more deep cuts to come for the army, as to be to pay for the navy, the ship contract is going to swallow the budget.

[Argus]

19 hours ago, Cannucklehead said:

https://www.globalfirepower.com/country-military-strength-detail.asp?country_id=canada

We are ranked 21 out of 137 in the power index.  Our lack of land strength is what holds us back, which is due to our climate and lack of population.  

You might note that when it lists available assets it does not consider their age or readiness. Thus we have '2,000 armored vehicles' but half of them don't run and the rest are pretty old. It lists our ships and aircraft but doesn't seem to consider how old they are.

[Argus]

18 hours ago, ProudConservative said:

Ever heard of the military industrial complex? The less we spend on the military, the safer we are.

With Vladimir Putin as our neighbour....?

[Argus]

Matt Gurney points out how Canada has been a free rider on its own defense for decades. But with the warming Arctic, Russian building up its bases and development in its north, and Donald Trump to the south, that's going to come to a shrieking end soon. As soon as Putin pushes the Liberals, if they're still in power, are going to have to explain why they've let our military deteriorate to almost nothing. Putin is the kind of guy who pushes wherever he thinks there's weakness. He never would have pushed his way into Crimea if he didn't realize how weak and disorganized the Ukrainians were. Same thing in Georgia. He's not going to get into a real war. But if there's nothing standing in his way then he's gonna push till there is.

As my colleague David Bercuson wrote here on Friday, Canada is rapidly falling behind Russia in its ability to effectively enforce claims to sovereignty over the Arctic. If anything, Bercuson was probably too polite. To call our military capability in a vast swath of our own territory token dangerously overstates our means.

Canada was able to get away with neglecting not just the Arctic but our national defence in general for many, many years. I’m afraid for so many years that it will be an impossible habit to break. But I am not the only one who has noticed. The United States is becoming increasingly frustrated with us. This matters.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/matt-gurney-canadas-defence-free-ride-is-ending-and-our-sovereignty-could-be-at-stake

[Dougie93]

Canada's biggest threat to sovereignty in the arctic is America.

America does not recognize Canada's claims, Americans transit the Northwest Passage at will beyond the 12 mile limit.

It is America which is establishing the international precedent of the NW passage being international waters.

There's nothing the Canadian military is going to do about it, so it's useless for arctic sovereignty

Edited December 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[Argus]

I happened to look up Singapore because it was mentioned in another topic.

Singapore has a population of just over 5.5 million.

Singapore has a larger military(72,000 vs 60,000), a far, far, far larger reserve (1.3 million vs 30,000), and is better equipped than the Canadian military. It's already taken possession of it's first F35s, for example and has put its first 6 stealth frigates into service.

Tell me again how Canada can't afford to spend 2%...

[Dougie93]

It's not even about how much Singapore spends, it's about what they spend it on, the vast majority of DND's budget goes to boondoggles.

Singapore uses the money to buy real world combat power and capabilities.

Canada relies on America to defend it, so the DND budget is a total boondoggle, all the money is flushed down the drain on overhead and absurd wastage.

DND spends a ton of money, they just don't spend it on the military.

Edited December 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

DND reports 8 Bil in unspent funding last year , yes you read that right 8 Bil of unspent funding...One of the many 2015 campaign promises was the liberals were going to fix our purchasing system, stream line it to make it more efficient..4 years later we can't even spend the allotted money.... a couple points here, Justin lied again, OK by now this is not news any more....he lies about everything, but thats ok lying is a Canadian thing ..it's perfectly OK for our nations leader to lie his ass off not only to us , but to the entire world....second point WTF is the CDS doing, why is this even happening, heads should be on a plate, you don't turn in Bils of dollars in a cash strap organization...another reason to fire the current CDS...even the minister of Defense, get rid of them all, perhaps lower the defense budget until someone puts on the big boy pants and can find a way to not only spend DND budget , but mange to purchase much needed equipment....

Perhaps dougie is right time to shut this shit show down, the Majority of Canadians don't care, shit even the CDS the top military official does not seem to give a shit....

 

[Dougie93]

All Canada needs is the RCMP,  Coast Guard and a Citizens Militia.  

Canada doesn't have a full spectrum military right now, so that proves that Canada doesn't need one.

[Dougie93]

Bear in mind that Canada has no logistics tail.

Canada cannot deploy the Army, Navy, nor Air Force, without full logistics being provided by America.

That means that it's not really Canada's military, it deploys only at the behest and discretion of America.

That's not sovereignty, that's a colony.

Canadians say they don't want to be ruled by Americans, but really,  they do.

You have to put your money where your mouth is, otherwise you are a colony by default.

Canada can't run a military, it's not going to happen,  just admit it and move on. 

Replace it with an armed constabulary which is actually independent of America and which actually serves a purpose for Canadians.

Back to the future, take it all back to 1885 : Permanent and Non Permanent Militia in support of the RCMP and Coast Guard.

That's the only Canadian military there ever was, everything else was British.

Let go of the World Wars.  Canada didn't fight them for Canada, Canada fought them for the British Empire.

The British were even refusing to defend Canada, yet Canadians naively roped themselves into fighting for India and the Far East.

That is not required. Canada doesn't need to fight other peoples wars anymore.  Just defend Canada, which doesn't require DND

The best way to defend Canada is boots on the ground from coast to coast : Citizens Militia.

Soon as you get rid of the Navy and Air Force, there's lots of money saved and still plenty left over for the Militia, RCMP and Coast Guard.

12 Frigates and the F-35 ?  Canada doesn't need them.  Let America handle that level of operations, what would be different than now ?

Edited December 5, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

The worst part about having this ramshackle Boutique Military is that the politicians are then tempted to use it.

Paul Martin and Rick Hillier were all gung-ho to show that Canada could play in the big leagues.

But DND simply couldn't back up their ambitions, the military was collapsed in 1990s, they didn't have the troops, they didn't have the logistics

So you end up with three rifle companies trying to cover an area the size of New Brunswick, with no air support.

That's absurd.  Canada killed those 150 troops in Afghanistan.   The Taliban didn't kill them, Canada killed them. 

Sent them into mission impossible and just left them hanging there.

It wasn't different than Canada sending troops into the First World War to be slaughtered, same cannon fodder, smaller scale.

It's not worth the grief.   It's not worth the shame of it.   Stop this pretense that Canada is a warfighting country anymore.

The Government of Canada is too corrupt and incompetent to run a military.  

Take their toys away from them,  lest they send your boys to their deaths in futility over and over, as they have for 150 years.

The Government of Canada's plan is that when Canada deploys overseas, the Allies are going to make up for all the things that Canada doesn't provide.

Realpolitik ; it doesn't happen.   Once the bullets start to fly, the Allies husband their assets for their troops.

It has to be that way, Washington can't go to the American people and say that these American troops were left hanging because we had to help Canada.

So it's a death trap.   The Allies are not going to make up the difference.  All the holes in the CF are the same holes when they get to the front.

If Canada is not going to maintain a full spectrum force, you owe it to your personnel not to deploy them.

Edited December 6, 2019 by Dougie93

[Zeitgeist]

On 12/5/2019 at 6:43 PM, Dougie93 said:

The worst part about having this ramshackle Boutique Military is that the politicians are then tempted to use it.

Paul Martin and Rick Hillier were all gung-ho to show that Canada could play in the big leagues.

But DND simply couldn't back up their ambitions, the military was collapsed in 1990s, they didn't have the troops, they didn't have the logistics

So you end up with three rifle companies trying to cover an area the size of New Brunswick, with no air support.

That's absurd.  Canada killed those 150 troops in Afghanistan.   The Taliban didn't kill them, Canada killed them. 

Sent them into mission impossible and just left them hanging there.

It wasn't different than Canada sending troops into the First World War to be slaughtered, same cannon fodder, smaller scale.

It's not worth the grief.   It's not worth the shame of it.   Stop this pretense that Canada is a warfighting country anymore.

The Government of Canada is too corrupt and incompetent to run a military.  

Take their toys away from them,  lest they send your boys to their deaths in futility over and over, as they have for 150 years.

The Government of Canada's plan is that when Canada deploys overseas, the Allies are going to make up for all the things that Canada doesn't provide.

Realpolitik ; it doesn't happen.   Once the bullets start to fly, the Allies husband their assets for their troops.

It has to be that way, Washington can't go to the American people and say that these American troops were left hanging because we had to help Canada.

So it's a death trap.   The Allies are not going to make up the difference.  All the holes in the CF are the same holes when they get to the front.

If Canada is not going to maintain a full spectrum force, you owe it to your personnel not to deploy them.

I agree that the military has been seriously neglected, but I don’t agree that dismantling it is the answer, nor do I agree that Canada has always been in this predicament.  Canada’s contributions in both world wars were impressive.  It’s not about clinging to the past nostalgically, it’s about waking up to the reality of Canada’s growing population and less reliable allies.  You and BC go on about realpolitik and the fact that an independent domestic policy and an enforceable foreign policy can only be backstopped by hard power.  No we’re not a superpower, but neither is Britain or France.  Canada will eventually be larger than both of them.  I would rather see a gradual build up.  

In peace time deploy the military to build infrastructure.  We need more engineers and tradesmen.  That’s how the canal system in southern Florida was built.  Build ports along the Arctic Ocean, expand hydro, build affordable housing, highways and railways.  Canada is good at rebuilding infrastructure and keeping the peace after military action.  Deploy some of those resources at home and maybe the military will get more political and financial support.  The public too often associates the military with useless marching up and down the parade square and corporate welfare equipment procurements.  

Edited December 7, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

I agree that the military has been seriously neglected, but I don’t agree that dismantling it is the answer,

It's already happened, what you see now is just a facade, a military is a living institution, the Canadian military has passed the point of being saved.

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

It's already happened, what you see now is just a facade, a military is a living institution, the Canadian military has passed the point of being saved.

It’s about political will. The public has to see the benefits.  We should enjoy the peace dividends and not engage in phoney wars to justify military spending.  The military has to show its domestic value and do more than fight or provide security.    

Edited December 7, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Yzermandius19]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

It’s about political will. The public has to see the benefits.  We should enjoy the peace dividends and not engage in phoney wars to justify military spending.  The military has to show its domestic value and do more than fight or monitor.  

The public isn't going to see the benefits, and all the wishful thinking in the world isn't going to change that.

[Dougie93]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

It’s about political will.

No it's not.  Once you break an army, you can't just buy a new one off the rack, that's not how it works.

 

[Zeitgeist]

6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

No it's not.  Once you break an army, you can't just buy a new one off the rack, that's not how it works.

 

Politicians run on promises and diversion of tax revenue in support of policy.  The government could launch a massive recruitment campaign, promote it through media, fill training bases throughout the year on constant rotation, and spend the billions to do this and buy the right gear.  They won’t because the public doesn’t see the point.  It’s not a vote getter.  Refashion the military into a supercharged Habitat for Humanity and Royal Engineers.  Fix up the water systems and housing on reserves, build essential transportation infrastructure, and procure useful gear for coastal defence and NATO commitments overseas.  

[Dougie93]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Politicians run on promises and diversion of tax revenue in support of policy.  The government could launch a massive recruitment campaign, promote it through media, fill training bases throughout the year on constant rotation, and spend the billions to do this and buy the right gear.  They won’t because the public doesn’t see the point.  It’s not a vote getter.  Refashion the military into a supercharged Habitat for Humanity and Royal Engineers.  Fix up the water systems and housing on reserves, build essential transportation infrastructure, and procure useful gear for coastal defence and NATO commitments overseas.  

Yeah, sure, whatever, good luck with that.

[bush_cheney2004]

6 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I agree that the military has been seriously neglected, but I don’t agree that dismantling it is the answer, nor do I agree that Canada has always been in this predicament.  Canada’s contributions in both world wars was impressive.  It’s not about clinging to the past nostalgically, it’s about waking up to the reality of Canada’s growing population and less reliable allies.  You and BC go on about realpolitik and the fact that a defensible independent domestic policy and an enforceable foreign policy can only truly be backstopped by hard power.  No we’re not a superpower, but neither is Britain or France. 

 

But Canada's successful past included concurrent economic development AND defense spending.   There was a time when Canada was a credible middle power with significant influence and "seat at the table".    No more...and maybe never again.    Have circumstances changed...yes...but the underlying backstop of real power remains a requirement...even more so if the Americans are less willing to pay the bill.

I served with Canadian forces on naval exercises many years ago...professional...competent...and proud to compete.   Later on I worked out of Keyport WA to test torpedoes and countermeasures at the Nanoose Range in the Strait of Georgia...jointly run by Canada and the USA for decades.   But now there is a battle over salmon, nuclear submarines, "warmongers", etc.    Protestors tried to block ships and small craft...it got so bad the Canadian federal government expropriated the land from British Columbia and a court fight ensued.

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But Canada's successful past included concurrent economic development AND defense spending.   There was a time when Canada was a credible middle power with significant influence and "seat at the table".    No more...and maybe never again.    Have circumstances changed...yes...but the underlying backstop of real power remains a requirement...even more so if the Americans are less willing to pay the bill.

I served with Canadian forces on naval exercises many years ago...professional...competent...and proud to compete.   Later on I worked out of Keyport WA to test torpedoes and countermeasures at the Nanoose Range in the Strait of Georgia...jointly run by Canada and the USA for decades.   But now there is a battle over salmon, nuclear submarines, "warmongers", etc.    Protestors tried to block ships and small craft...it got so bad the Canadian federal government expropriated the land from British Columbia and a court fight ensued.

I hear you.  Too much noise and influence from special interests are a real threat to the economy and the national interest.  We need strong leadership at the federal level that is willing to take the flak for moving full steam ahead with resource and business development.  It’s getting too politically sensitive and expensive to get things done.  I don’t see a single federal leader capable of leading the charge right now.  

Edited December 7, 2019 by Zeitgeist

[Dougie93]

24 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

But Canada's successful past included concurrent economic development AND defense spending.   There was a time when Canada was a credible middle power with significant influence and "seat at the table".    No more...and maybe never again.    Have circumstances changed...yes...but the underlying backstop of real power remains a requirement...even more so if the Americans are less willing to pay the bill.

I served with Canadian forces on naval exercises many years ago...professional...competent...and proud to compete.   Later on I worked out of Keyport WA to test torpedoes and countermeasures at the Nanoose Range in the Strait of Georgia...jointly run by Canada and the USA for decades.   But now there is a battle over salmon, nuclear submarines, "warmongers", etc.    Protestors tried to block ships and small craft...it got so bad the Canadian federal government expropriated the land from British Columbia and a court fight ensued.

The civilians here don't understand how broken it is, they have no concept of how it was a living thing, institutional knowledge passed down from one generation to the next.

They talk about rebuilding the military as if there was something to build on, when really they would be starting from scratch.

Meanwhile, the governments priority is to get more trannies in uniform, so they can parade these freaks around to the media.

It's a sad farce, it's broken beyond repair.

[bush_cheney2004]

25 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The civilians here don't understand how broken it is, they have no concept of how it was a living thing, institutional knowledge passed down from one generation to the next.

They talk about rebuilding the military as if there was something to build on, when really they would be starting from scratch.

 

 

It's worse than that..and more insidious.

Canada's government has not only underfunded defence spending and veterans benefits, but it seeks to take credit and political gain on the backs of the Canadian Forces volunteers and their families who are willing to fight even without adequate resources/support.  

Sending men and women into battle without proper kit and logistical support on the cheap while claiming to be strong partners and defenders of the "post WW2 order".

No wonder recruiting has suffered...and experience is leaving Canadian Forces.

 

 

 

 

 

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

No wonder recruiting has suffered...and experience is leaving Canadian Forces

This is mostly because the Liberals are turning it into a gay liberation transvestite showcase military

The guys I know who are quitting, it's because they can't abide the new leftist Woke PC agenda being brought down from on high.

Maybe they will all be replaced by gays and transvestites.

Edited December 7, 2019 by Dougie93

[Army Guy]

On 12/7/2019 at 1:07 AM, Zeitgeist said:

It’s about political will. The public has to see the benefits.  We should enjoy the peace dividends and not engage in phoney wars to justify military spending.  The military has to show its domestic value and do more than fight or provide security.    

The public are not interested in any of that, seeing the benefits are you F***ing  kidding me, every national disaster this country has ever had be forest fires,  floods, washed out bridges, SAR rescue, on top of sovereignty patrols in the artic or our fishing grounds you name it the military has been there and is still there....we have always had Canadians backs...24/7, the military has been providing support to all Canadians behind the scenes every day .. don't get we wrong there are Canadians out their that do support us 100% of the time...to them Bravo Zulu, your the reason most soldiers go to work everyday, to the vast majority of Canadians that don't like the military or don't care , to bad we serve this country,  not your lazy asses...

And what has the public done for us in return, have they,  stood  up for veterans in their hour of need , "nope" instead they are forced to take our government to court to get the same treatment as every other Canadian already has...., have they ensured our small military is properly equipped, and funded so we can train, so we can come home to our love ones intact... "nope",  have they ensured we don't get sent into a war zone with out the proper equipment / clothing/ wpns…."nope", have they stood up to the government when conflicts have become unpopular " nope" What do they really do for our military...or is it a one way street, the military does all the given and the public sits there and laughs at us...

The public knows nothing about our military, nor are they interested in what we do, how we do it, sure "some" will gather around Nov 11 and pay respects to the fallen, the majority will go to work or go home as they got better things to do...shit can't even get most of them to wear poppies....Your Military has been begging for help for the last 40 years and the public have turned a blind eye to them....and yet they still serve the ungrateful public and now you want us to do what dance in the streets, get on our knees.... What is it that our military has done to the public that we are treated this way ? Many soldiers have given up trying to serve the public, instead they serve the man to the left and to the right on him...because they are the ones they call brothers and sisters, they will always have your back, they will always come running when the SHTF....many have become bitter, resentful, unpatriotic all towards the public...regardless of how much you give the public  it is never enough...

 

Edited December 8, 2019 by Army Guy