Canada's NATO shell game , guess how much we spend ?

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

Such a brave knight on such a brave quest.

Go ahead and throw Canada under the bus in your Quixotic quest against the Loonie Left...

You are proudly tilting at windmills... abandoning Canada isn't going to win you this war.

You even have Sancho Panza along for the ride.

I already did my time in the trenches for Canada, if you disrespect my bravery and honor therein, it simply confirms that I made the right choice by moving on from Canada.

[DrYouth]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

I already did my time in the trenches for Canada, if you disrespect my bravery and honor therein, it simply confirms that I made the right choice by moving on from Canada.

I'm not disrespecting your service to Canada.

That I value.

What I'm disagreeing with is your lumping all of Canada in with the Loonie Left.

The Loonie Left is a scourge, don't get me wrong....

But throwing all of Canada away as a lost cause isn't the right tactic.

USA ain't gonna save us from this scourge... the USA is rotting with the same disease.

So is much of the western world.... there are good tactics in the battle... but leaving Canada on the battlefield is the wrong way to go.

[Dougie93]

8 minutes ago, jacee said:

When you have a hammer, everything looks like a nail.

When you have a gun, everything looks like a war.

Such a limited life you lead, dougie.

Except I'm the one saying that Canada should get out and disband the Canadian Forces, because it's nothing but a boondoggle for entrenched interest elites.

Canada is not even a country, it doesn't need armed forces, Canadians stand for nothing, they fight for nothing, fair enough, so just stop pretending already.

Edited December 4, 2019 by Dougie93

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, DrYouth said:

I'm not disrespecting your service to Canada.

That I value.

What I'm disagreeing with is your lumping all of Canada in with the Loonie Left.

The Loonie Left is a scourge, don't get me wrong....

But throwing all of Canada away as a lost cause isn't the right tactic.

USA ain't gonna save us from this scourge... the USA is rotting with the same disease.

So is much of the western world.... there are good tactics in the battle... but leaving Canada on the battlefield is the wrong way to go.

Canada is not on the battlefield, America is not offering to save you, what are you even prattling on about, Jelly Fish ?

[DrYouth]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

Canada is not on the battlefield, America is not offering to save you, what are you even prattling on about, Jelly Fish ?

Calling you out on your prattle, Don Quixote.

[Dougie93]

Just now, DrYouth said:

Calling you out on your prattle, Don Quixote.

Calling me out for what ?  Moving on from Canada ?  It's my prerogative, go ahead and decry me for it, the empty rhetoric of Canadians holds no sway with me now /shrugs

[Argus]

22 minutes ago, Boges said:

In 1939 the US had a tiny army. Necessity sometimes requires action. But the fact that the Alliance exists means that any action will be met with the combined might of all nations in NATO. 

The US was across an ocean and had time to build up its army. How'd having a crappy army work for the Poles or French, hmm?

And I don't see Donald Trump being willing to commit to fighting Russia for any reason short of them landing in New York.

[Dougie93]

Russia is not America's enemy, it;'s not the Soviet Union anymore, join us in the 21st century, Canadian morons.

[Boges]

16 minutes ago, Argus said:

The US was across an ocean and had time to build up its army. How'd having a crappy army work for the Poles or French, hmm?

And I don't see Donald Trump being willing to commit to fighting Russia for any reason short of them landing in New York.

The French actually had a decent sized army in 1940. 

But the Nazi's used new tactics that the Allies didn't expect. Hindsight is 2020. For example, having Tanks out flank a fortified line through a forrest. And using those Tanks on the front of an offensive, not to support it. 

The lesson from WW2 is that the Allies should have stepped in when the War was in Poland and China instead of waiting for it come to their collective doorstep. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Boges

[Boges]

14 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Russia is not America's enemy, it;'s not the Soviet Union anymore, join us in the 21st century, Canadian morons.

Then why is the US officially supporting Ukraine against Russia? 

[Dougie93]

The lesson of WW2 is that Britain and France should have just let the Germans and Soviet fight it out without getting involved.

British and French paranoia incited them to declare war on Germany, then lick spittle Canada declares war because Canada is a crony state.

The whole disaster could have been avoided if they had just followed America's lead.

[Dougie93]

2 minutes ago, Boges said:

Then why is the US officially supporting Ukraine against Russia? 

It doesn't, Ukraine doesn't have Article V, they are fools if they think America is going to war for them, but I don't think they actually think that.

[Boges]

8 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The lesson of WW2 is that Britain and France should have just let the Germans and Soviet fight it out without getting involved.

British and French paranoia incited them to declare war on Germany, then lick spittle Canada declares war because Canada is a crony state.

The whole disaster could have been avoided if they had just followed America's lead.

Wait what? Until Operation Barbarossa Germany and the USSR had a non aggression pact. They were seen as allies. 

It was Germany that was stupid enough to pick a fight with Russia. And once they did, Russia benefitted greatly from support from the West. 

If it wasn't for a the Battle of Britain, all of Western Europe would have been under the influence of the Nazis. Being passive did not serve the allies well. 

Ditto with the US in the Pacific. Where they were a handful of flukes away from having their West Coast invaded. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Boges

[Boges]

10 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

It doesn't, Ukraine doesn't have Article V, they are fools if they think America is going to war for them, but I don't think they actually think that.

No but they're providing military support.

Kind of what this whole impeachment is hinging on. Trump withdrawing military support to Leverage political gossip on a rival.

AND might I add, Article 5 of NATO is what's keeping Putin from expanding beyond Ukraine, because then the rest of the Nations have to intervene. And there's no way Putin can take them all. 

If you've got one, you've got us all. Kind of a nice sentiment until Putin got one of his puppets elected POTUS. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Boges

[Dougie93]

Just now, Boges said:

Wait what? Until Operation Barbarossa Germany and the USSR had a non aggression pact. They were seen as allies. 

It was Germany that was stupid enough to pick a fight with Russia. And once they did, Russia benefitted greatly from support from the West. 

If it wasn't for a the Battle of Britain, all of Western Europe would have been under the influence of the Nazi. Being passive did not serve the allies well. 

Ditto with the US in the Pacific. Where they were a handful of flukes away from having their West Coast invaded. 

The British and French declared war on Germany because they were paranoid about Germany siding with Italy over the Suez Canal.

The British and French went to war to defend their empires in India, Indochina and the Far East.

Canada provided cannon fodder for the Empire, that's all Canada ever fought for.

America had bailed the British and French out in the First World War, so when the British and French got their asses handed to them, America stepped in to protect our investment

Britain, France, Germany, and Japan lost the war, America and the Soviet Union won it, then America defeated the Soviets afterwords in the Cold War.

[Dougie93]

4 minutes ago, Boges said:

No but they're providing military support.

Kind of what this whole impeachment is hinging on. Trump withdrawing military support to Leverage political gossip on a rival.

AND might I add, Article 5 of NATO is what's keeping Putin from expanding beyond Ukraine, because then the rest of the Nations have to intervene. 

The Russians don't have the capability to project power beyond their Near Abroad, they are no threat to Europe, you know nothing, you're talking about shit your don't understand

 

[Army Guy]

5 hours ago, Boges said:

It plays into their hands that he's sowing discord amongst NATO. 

When 911 happened the US invoked Article 5 and to a man NATO has their backs. 

Now Trump is waffling on it. https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2017/05/trump-declines-to-affirm-natos-article-5/528129/

How can you even say that, the creation of the European union was and is the down fall of NATO, yes the very continent that NATO was created for is working behind the scenes to reduce the required support by the US in order to reduce it's influence in the area... and when the cold war ended, it was beer and pretzels for everyone…. The European countries have been creating sub military organizations within Europe for dozens of years, France and Germany created a combined force for rapid reaction around the globe, it was later expanded to include many of the euro countries, no of it is under NATO command...... all while greatly reducing military expenditures by in some cases 80 %...and while they were living the dream,  beers in hands America was expected to keep its forces in place and pay for all this security....or for the most part the lion share... I know this is where your thinking so , well they are getting tired of paying the bills sally, it's time for all these nations , including Canada to pick up their panties the party is over, put on your big boy pants and come back to reality....

Many NATO nations had pulled what Canada did in Yugo, lots of troops but so many restrictions on how they were used that they called us CAN"T bat 1 and CAN'T bat 2 and for the most part during the early stages we did nothing....In Afghanistan there were plenty of CAN"T bats with euro nations, nations that had very modern military machines who could have been used to greater effect, but did not they showed up but stayed in compounds....they did not have anyone's back, it was smaller nations like Canada, the Dutch that fought beyond their capabilities... Next was the UK, then the US filled in every where else....and then most of those countries Canada included left before the job was done....

Trump is doing what most presidents should have done long ago...called out all those slackers , it is time to start paying their own bills, and stop riding on the US coat tails.... But hey Canada is a professional when it comes to this sport we've been doing it since the end of WWII...the euro's have a lot of catching up to do to match Canada in this game.... So much so it has become a source of pride to most Canadians ….we  have rode this wave to the beach...and I hope trump grows some bigger balls and tells our PM straight....listen up you cheap two face bastard get on board or start sell your shit to the Chinese's, hope you like rice mother trucker...

Canadians are not worried about sovereignty, or we would not be having this discussion, we don't care about anything outside of our little kingdoms... because the US is still paying the bills, but some how we can't fathom that all we are doing is pissing them off... we think we are entitled to all of this and more... it's pathetic really...  

 

[Boges]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

The British and French declared war on Germany because they were paranoid about Germany siding with Italy over the Suez Canal.

No, they declared war because they invaded Poland. And that was annexing Austria and parts of the Czech Republic. It was seen as finally a bridge too far. And even then they just waited to be invaded in the Spring of 1940. 

Quote

The British and French went to war to defend their empires in India, Indochina and the Far East.

Very prudent since this was a World War and Japan was also a threat. 

Quote

Canada provided cannon fodder for the Empire, that's all Canada ever fought for.

That's a grim view of Canada's involvement in WW2. Don Cherry would be outraged by that sentiment.

 

Quote

America had bailed the British and French out in the First World War, so when the British and French got their asses handed to them, America stepped in to protect our investment

And had they acted earlier perhaps they could have staved off Japanese expansion and further loss of life. Regardless FDR did work to support allies using back channels because he recognized the Nazi threat even though this whole America First sentiment Trump flaunts was powerful. 

Quote

Britain, France, Germany, and Japan lost the war, America and the Soviet Union won it, then America defeated the Soviets afterwords in the Cold War.

Your view of history is complete fiction. 

[Boges]

4 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The Russians don't have the capability to project power beyond their Near Abroad, they are no threat to Europe, you know nothing, you're talking about shit your don't understand

Head meet sand. 

[Dougie93]

Just now, Boges said:

Head meet sand. 

Says who ?  Some Canadian who has no clue what he's prattling on about ?

The only threat Russia poses to America is an interpolar thermonuclear exchange,  America has the TRIAD to address that, NATO is obsolete.

The purpose of NATO was to prevent the Warsaw Pact from reaching the Rhine river and overrunning Rammstein AFB to prevent American reinforcement.

That mission ended with the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1989.  NATO serves no purpose now, Europe can defend themselves, with EUFOR.

 

[Boges]

11 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

How can you even say that, the creation of the European union was and is the down fall of NATO, yes the very continent that NATO was created for is working behind the scenes to reduce the required support by the US in order to reduce it's influence in the area... and when the cold war ended, it was beer and pretzels for everyone…. The European countries have been creating sub military organizations within Europe for dozens of years, France and Germany created a combined force for rapid reaction around the globe, it was later expanded to include many of the euro countries, no of it is under NATO command...... all while greatly reducing military expenditures by in some cases 80 %...and while they were living the dream,  beers in hands America was expected to keep its forces in place and pay for all this security....or for the most part the lion share... I know this is where your thinking so , well they are getting tired of paying the bills sally, it's time for all these nations , including Canada to pick up their panties the party is over, put on your big boy pants and come back to reality....

Many NATO nations had pulled what Canada did in Yugo, lots of troops but so many restrictions on how they were used that they called us CAN"T bat 1 and CAN'T bat 2 and for the most part during the early stages we did nothing....In Afghanistan there were plenty of CAN"T bats with euro nations, nations that had very modern military machines who could have been used to greater effect, but did not they showed up but stayed in compounds....they did not have anyone's back, it was smaller nations like Canada, the Dutch that fought beyond their capabilities... Next was the UK, then the US filled in every where else....and then most of those countries Canada included left before the job was done....

Trump is doing what most presidents should have done long ago...called out all those slackers , it is time to start paying their own bills, and stop riding on the US coat tails.... But hey Canada is a professional when it comes to this sport we've been doing it since the end of WWII...the euro's have a lot of catching up to do to match Canada in this game.... So much so it has become a source of pride to most Canadians ….we  have rode this wave to the beach...and I hope trump grows some bigger balls and tells our PM straight....listen up you cheap two face bastard get on board or start sell your shit to the Chinese's, hope you like rice mother trucker...

Canadians are not worried about sovereignty, or we would not be having this discussion, we don't care about anything outside of our little kingdoms... because the US is still paying the bills, but some how we can't fathom that all we are doing is pissing them off... we think we are entitled to all of this and more... it's pathetic really...  

You're acting like Canada spends nothing on their military. 

They're still top 15. And I doubt Canadians would support the several billion required while still running a deficit. 

Most countries don't have the will or the Military Industrial Complex that US has. In fact none do. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Boges

[Boges]

1 minute ago, Dougie93 said:

Says who ?  Some Canadian who has no clue what he's prattling on about ?

The only threat Russia poses to America is an interpolar thermonuclear exchange,  America has the TRIAD to address that, NATO is obsolete.

The purpose of NATO was to prevent the Warsaw Pact from reaching the Rhine river and overrunning Rammstein AFB to prevent American reinforcement.

That mission ended with the dissolution of the Warsaw Pact in 1989.  NATO serves no purpose now, Europe can defend themselves, with EUFOR.

Says the guy who doesn't know basic facts about WW2. 

Russia can certainly regain its military might. As noted by Argus, they and China have cheap labour. 

Edited December 4, 2019 by Boges

[Dougie93]

Just now, Boges said:

Says the guy who doesn't know basic facts about WW2. 

Yeah, okay, whatever,I defer to your obvious expertise.

[Cannucklehead]

5 minutes ago, Boges said:

Says the guy who doesn't know basic facts about WW2. 

Russia can certainly regain its military might. As noted by Argus, they and China have cheap labour. 

Should keep up with the current race to build up the artic.  Russia is getting the drop on us in that area.  

[Boges]

Just now, Dougie93 said:

Yeah, okay, whatever,I defer to your obvious expertise.

You said that Russia and Germany should have fought it out and the UK and France should have sat there with Popcorn. 

Ignoring years of Nazi aggression and invasion of Poland. Germany and the USSR partitioned Poland off. They were allies in 1940. 

There's a reason Neville Chamberlin is seen by history as a capitulator and Winston Churchill is seen as hero.

Chamberlin tried to make peace with Germany. . . and it didn't work.