Kenney Picks Fight with Ottawa to Make Himself Look Good

[Abies]

27 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

If you think BC is in a great position when the west separates , I think your wrong, those same Chinese products will be available from the states, so it's not like BC will hold many cards, BC still needs to get its resources to the ROC , how do they do that....mean while Alberta still has pipe lines to the states, and they like the discounted oil and with not having to share their tax base with Ottawa who do you really is going to be hurting at the end of the day...There is going to be some large comprises made on both sides, and you NDP government is going to have suck back and reload....when it comes to pipelines to tide water.... 

Still have the First Nations groups in Alberta who will more than likely want to remain with Canada. 

[Queenmandy85]

1 hour ago, Army Guy said:

Don't under estimate Saskatchewan will to separate...Ottawa is alienating of both provinces not just Alberta….and they are both having conversations together...

The west has mor ein common with the US than the ROC, I don't see a problem here, it would be a win win in the US invites them to be a US state....

Why would they need an army to protect pipe lines? not following your train of thought here. ? 

First nations is not going to have any say....they will be nations within a nations....pretty much how Quebec was going to handle it....offer them a deal, or close them out a nation wiothin a nation....

Are you suggesting that there is no oil being pumped through keystone ?

I guess they will have to sell their other resources such as grain, etc etc....Alberta has never been a recipient of equalization....perhaps you'll have to ask those provinces that are firmly latched onto those tits what are they going to do when the taps are shut off...I think Alberta and Saskatchewan are positioned to fair a lot better than if Quebec would separate... and they are still chirping about it...

 

The US is a nation of wonderful people but they are a republic, the antithisis of Canada's traditions and culture. 

The pipelines are vunerable to attack from Canadians who take a dim view of someone trying to destroy our country. Lets see, 5 and a half million against 31 million. Not good odds and that doesn't include the couple of million loyalists in Alberta and Saskatchewan who want to stay in Canada.

The First Nations have treaty rights that basically give them the right to stop separation, according to the news reports..

 

 

 

[jacee]

9 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

http://www.worldstopexports.com/canadas-top-exports/

Why don't you take a look at that site and see what conclusions you come to about dirty dirty oil, and what impact it has on our economy?

Economies change over time, will change to address climate change.  

Oil will be replaced. 

75% of Canada's GHG emissions come from Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Oil would not be profitable right now without subsidies.

That's not a viable industry. 

And it's not a free market.

Renewables are more profitable, and investments are going there. 

You can't stop the world from changing. 

[Rue]

On 11/19/2019 at 2:59 PM, cougar said:

I wasn't going to China; neither do I miss any of its 1.4 billion residents.

The point made is that they survive on $3/hour about the same way as many Canadians survive on $15/hour.   Then apparently they have enough rich people to influence the real estate market in Vancouver and other big cities and enough money to make their population continue to grow.  Can we agree on this at least?

 

They survive on what they do while we survive on a different amount because of price dumping. They do not sell internally what they export. No one in the country could afford to buy what they export.  They have an artificially low yen which makes comparing currency with Canada meaningless and inaccurate,. I do agree Hong Kong money from people hedging their bet before the takeback of Hong Kong by China fueled real estate prices all over the world an in Vancouver and Toronto and our federal governments welcomed the money.

China also bought out all our coal and has been active in buying out other natural resource companies. It badly needs copper, aluminum, steel, hard metals including platinum. silver, gold, zinc and even mercury. It needs as well fresh water, rice, wheat, canola oil(rapeseed), natural gas, oil because of its industrial and basic needs. That in turn means it needs Canada as a source for such things including oil and natural has from Alberta. In the long term turning China over to alternative fuel sources as is the case with India, are the two largest obstacles people planning to "save the planet" face. 

I 

 

Edited November 21, 2019 by Rue

[WestCanMan]

8 hours ago, jacee said:

Economies change over time, will change to address climate change.  

Oil will be replaced. 

75% of Canada's GHG emissions come from Alberta and Saskatchewan.

Oil would not be profitable right now without subsidies.

That's not a viable industry. 

And it's not a free market.

Renewables are more profitable, and investments are going there. 

You can't stop the world from changing. 

You don't have a clue. You're spouting platitudes instead of recognizing basic economic realities. You're happy with the way that Trudeau is destroying our economy because ignorance is bliss.

[jacee]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

You don't have a clue. You're spouting platitudes instead of recognizing basic economic realities. You're happy with the way that Trudeau is destroying our economy because ignorance is bliss.

It is not about the economy. You can't control the economy anyway: People are free to invest their money where they like, and it is investors abandoning fossil fuels that will bring Alberta to its knees, if Alberta doesn't make a better plan.

My point, that you've ignored, is that the economy never stays the same: It evolves with the times.  Such short-sighted vision is the problem.

Spouting hot air blaming the rest of Canada, threatening to "separate" is ... just wasting time and energy and good will that is better invested in a future for Alberta.

Renewable energy is the future, and the changeover is coming faster and faster, technology improving by leaps and bounds. The Alberta oil industry doesn't have decades left as some Albertans still want to believe. Investors are already fleeing fossil fuels, and the industry will crash in the next five years. 

No investments, no industry. 

No arguments can change that. 

[WestCanMan]

7 minutes ago, jacee said:

It is not about the economy. You can't control the economy anyway: People are free to invest their money where they like, and it is investors abandoning fossil fuels that will bring Alberta to its knees, if Alberta doesn't make a better plan.

My point, that you've ignored, is that the economy never stays the same: It evolves with the times.  Such short-sighted vision is the problem.

Spouting hot air blaming the rest of Canada, threatening to "separate" is ... just wasting time and energy and good will that is better invested in a future for Alberta.

Renewable energy is the future, and the changeover is coming faster and faster, technology improving by leaps and bounds. The Alberta oil industry doesn't have decades left as some Albertans still want to believe. Investors are already fleeing fossil fuels, and the industry will crash in the next five years. 

No investments, no industry. 

No arguments can change that. 

Renewable energy is the future for countries that have a large manufacturing base. Canada can't compete with those countries.

The only reason we manufacture automobiles here is because we subsidize them and we have trade deals in place that protect that industry. On the level playing field, in manufacturing, Canada is as competitive as female weightlifters in the new female weightlifting category that includes dudes who can tuck their junk in and make ducklips. 

[Charles Anthony]

Folks,  

Stop the personal attacks and banter.  

[cougar]

6 hours ago, Rue said:

They have an artificially low yen which makes comparing currency with Canada meaningless and inaccurate.

Finally we are getting somewhere.  I also find that comparing our "quality" of life to theirs will be equally meaningless.  Too many factors to consider and even within one family you may have members who have better lives than other family members.

Overall I think we are getting complacent believing we are doing great, while in reality most of us have boring lives revolving around work, paying bills and generally being slaves to the government, monopolists and other capitalist interests.

Edited November 21, 2019 by cougar

[WestCanMan]

1 minute ago, cougar said:

Finally we are getting somewhere.  I also find that comparing our "quality" of life to theirs will be equally meaningless.  Too many factors to consider and even within one family you may have members who have better lives than other family members.

Overall I think we are getting complacent believing we are doing great, while in reality most of us have boring lives revolving around work, paying bills and generally being slaves to the government, monopolists and other capitalist interests.

Nope, not at all. 

In China a couple works hard in factories for 40+ hrs a week and they're happy to live in a tiny condo or share a modest condo with another family in an overcrowded, polluted city primarily eating basic staple foods. In Canada when a couple does that much work they expect a big place of their own, two cars, shiny new cel phones & computers & TVs, nice meals, and a nice vacay every year.

If we kill our export economy we just need to be willing to live with less.

[cougar]

1 minute ago, WestCanMan said:

Nope, not at all. 

In China a couple works hard in factories for 40+ hrs a week and they're happy to live in a tiny condo or share a modest condo with another family in an overcrowded, polluted city primarily eating basic staple foods. In Canada when a couple does that much work they expect a big place of their own, two cars, shiny new cel phones & computers & TVs, nice meals, and a nice vacay every year.

If we kill our export economy we just need to be willing to live with less.

Show me those factory workers in Canada working 40+ hours/week who can live in a big house, buy all gizmos, raise a family and go on a nice vacation every year!  You must be delusional.  

I have been across Canada and in one short period of my life I was tossed around a number of companies.  I remember coming across a 20 year old girl at a Dog Food plant in Ontario who was so happy she was finally given a full time position at the stinky disgusting place, after working there for over 3 years.   Wages?  I doubt she made it up to $20/hour even today.

You think those people manage to buy a large house in Toronto and go on vacation to Hawaii every year?  Gee's

[jacee]

16 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Nope, not at all. 

In China a couple works hard in factories for 40+ hrs a week and they're happy to live in a tiny condo or share a modest condo with another family in an overcrowded, polluted city primarily eating basic staple foods. In Canada when a couple does that much work they expect a big place of their own, two cars, shiny new cel phones & computers & TVs, nice meals, and a nice vacay every year.

If we kill our export economy we just need to be willing to live with less.

That's fine. We need to do that anyway. 

And I agree with cougar: Your idea of how people live on factory wages is not true in the east.

Maybe in Alberta ... but the rest of the country doesn't live that way on factory jobs.

[Queenmandy85]

We don't need to wreck the economy to transition away from fossil fuels. The operative word there is fuel. We need to move into production of non-carbon emitting energy using uranium in the short term while developing thorium reactors and solar. We already export uranium. We should be building reactors across Canada, electrify and rebuild the rail network and build reactors from around the world. The economic benifits to Canada, especially western Canada go far beyond imagination.

 

[WestCanMan]

51 minutes ago, cougar said:

Show me those factory workers in Canada working 40+ hours/week who can live in a big house, buy all gizmos, raise a family and go on a nice vacation every year!  You must be delusional.  

I have been across Canada and in one short period of my life I was tossed around a number of companies.  I remember coming across a 20 year old girl at a Dog Food plant in Ontario who was so happy she was finally given a full time position at the stinky disgusting place, after working there for over 3 years.   Wages?  I doubt she made it up to $20/hour even today.

You think those people manage to buy a large house in Toronto and go on vacation to Hawaii every year?  Gee's

No one is supposed to stay 20 yrs in a starter position, and no one makes the equivalent of $3 per hour in a factory in Canada. 

Next.

[WestCanMan]

31 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

We don't need to wreck the economy to transition away from fossil fuels. The operative word there is fuel. We need to move into production of non-carbon emitting energy using uranium in the short term while developing thorium reactors and solar. We already export uranium. We should be building reactors across Canada, electrify and rebuild the rail network and build reactors from around the world. The economic benifits to Canada, especially western Canada go far beyond imagination.

 

I'm in favour of cheap energy, but we still won't be adding $100 billion PER YEAR worth of exports to our economy with the new "clean energy" industry, and we shouldn't be dismantling our energy sector while there are still trillions worth of exports there. A reasonable target is a fraction of one billion per year.

 

[cougar]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Next.

No need.  Keep spreading misinformation around.

[WestCanMan]

17 minutes ago, cougar said:

No need.  Keep spreading misinformation around.

Lol, yeah that's what I'm doing alright. I like how you provided a cite that contradicted mine. Stay awesome.

[jacee]

Canada's GHG emissions per capita would drop immensely if Alberta separates, and Alberta would have the highest emissions per capita in the world:

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/11/21/analysis/independent-alberta-would-be-worlds-worst-climate-polluter

[jacee]

Not all Albertans are interested in playing 'the blame game': 

https://edmontonjournal.com/opinion/columnists/swann-stop-the-blame-game-albertas-plight-is-our-own-doing

Ironically, this lack of foresight, integrity and political will have contributed to distrust and loss of confidence from investors. The Kenney war room is another blatant political ploy against both climate science and free speech; ironically, it is partially funded by foreign oil companies.

Oil prices and the global move away from fossil fuels are beyond our control. Let’s stop the blame game and acknowledge that we are all responsible for the Alberta we have, and for the Alberta we leave to our children. For all our sakes, let us see some mature, honest negotiating in good faith across this country and do our collective best to live up to our international commitment on the climate crisis. Alberta’s present state is largely our own doing.

I wish for the best for Albertans, and there are some hard conversations necessary. 

[Guest]

9 hours ago, jacee said:

Canada's GHG emissions per capita would drop immensely if Alberta separates, and Alberta would have the highest emissions per capita in the world:

https://www.nationalobserver.com/2019/11/21/analysis/independent-alberta-would-be-worlds-worst-climate-polluter

So Canada would drastically reduce its emissions, but it wouldn't help with climate change?  There's a lesson there.

[Army Guy]

On 11/20/2019 at 10:06 PM, Abies said:

Still have the First Nations groups in Alberta who will more than likely want to remain with Canada. 

This is not a new idea Quebec also has first nations that wanted nothing to do with Quebec separatists... but Quebec still pressed ahead, if separation is the goal here do you think first nations will stop that, perhaps becoming a nation within a nation...compromises will have to be made on all sides, if first nations does not want to play ball, and not compromise well they are surrounded for the most part, they to will be land locked as well...but we don't know that do we, I mean why would they want to stay with the feds not like they have been looking after them, maybe Alberta will offer them a better deal...

Besides current borders may change, as in Quebec's circumstance the feds where not going to land lock the Maritimes, the feds would redraw the borders to create a southern corridor...Just because you hold a referendum and win , does not mean your getting everything within todays established borders...., those borders where drawn up by the feds, and can be redrawn at anytime....    

[Army Guy]

On 11/20/2019 at 11:44 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

The US is a nation of wonderful people but they are a republic, the antithisis of Canada's traditions and culture. 

The pipelines are vunerable to attack from Canadians who take a dim view of someone trying to destroy our country. Lets see, 5 and a half million against 31 million. Not good odds and that doesn't include the couple of million loyalists in Alberta and Saskatchewan who want to stay in Canada.

The First Nations have treaty rights that basically give them the right to stop separation, according to the news reports..

 

 

 

I can remember not so long ago a topic on that very issue, Canada's traditions and culture, Canadian morals and values, and believe it or not some had a hard time defining any of those...are they something that would be a deal breaker, hockey night in Canada would still be there, so what is it that would could not live without and the US would be admit we not import....

Lets wrap our heads around this for a minute...Alberta wants to separate because ROC is not giving any love for pipelines....so when they do separate Canadians will destroy pipelines because they did not want Alberta to separate....but not willing to compromise on pipelines....That sounds like Canada....we can't get our way were going to take our ball and go home... well those that want to stay will stay regardless of who is in charge, those that don't well book your moving van early  because it is going to be a busy time....but it works both ways those that want to move to Alberta will also get on with it...

I have not seen many separation's of nations go very well, may be a small handful, that have peacefully handed over power...There is nothing special about Canada that will give them the golden card to separating without violence .. the whole deal has to have major compromises' on all sides.. Numbers don't mean squat Canada could be thrown into complete caus with only a few hundred dedicated people See the Taliban for an example...they never won one battle, and yet they are at the negotiating table for a reason...

First nations do have treaties with the feds... when Quebec was having it's referendum, there was no talk of first nations stopping the separation process... and I'm pretty sure it's not going to stop any other separations...if that was the case why would we have laws in place for separation, if they could be simply be vetoed by first nations... I think the media got it wrong … but hey maybe they are right maybe they can veto and save Canada....

but then again I think Alberta's resources are theirs's to developed or not to....what would happen if Alberta just say ya your right, and just buried in the oil sands, claiming it was for climate change....... and then got in the line for those same  equalization payments , wonder what the leader of the block would say then, would he help them turn green like he said, or would he be in tears trying  to find 13 bil dollars to pay for Quebec's budget.......and the Quebec leader ... well I'm sure he is not going to be as cocky as he is now...

right now the ROC are just laughing , their spouting they are not going to separate, who cares...well i'm sure those same Canadians would be in shock if they wake up one morning to find Alberta has separated and taken perhaps Sask, man, maybe even BC as well would that be a kick in the crouch....all they are asking for is pipelines....and the ROC are sticking up their noses and saying no....we love your tax dollars you send us, but we do not give a shit about your oil...or you....and we can't for the love of god figure why they are so pissed...

[jacee]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

So Canada would drastically reduce its emissions, but it wouldn't help with climate change?  There's a lesson there.

Yes.

I was being just a bit sarcastic, of course.  Lol 

[jacee]

27 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

First nations do have treaties with the feds... when Quebec was having it's referendum, there was no talk of first nations stopping the separation process... and I'm pretty sure it's not going to stop any other separations...if that was the case why would we have laws in place for separation, if they could be simply be vetoed by first nations... I think the media got it wrong … but hey maybe they are right maybe they can veto and save Canada....

but then again I think Alberta's resources are theirs's to developed or not to....what would happen if Alberta just say ya your right, and just buried in the oil sands, claiming it was for climate change....... and then got in the line for those same  equalization payments , wonder what the leader of the block would say then, would he help them turn green like he said, or would he be in tears trying  to find 13 bil dollars to pay for Quebec's budget.......and the Quebec leader ... well I'm sure he is not going to be as cocky as he is now...

right now the ROC are just laughing , their spouting they are not going to separate, who cares...well i'm sure those same Canadians would be in shock if they wake up one morning to find Alberta has separated and taken perhaps Sask, man, maybe even BC as well would that be a kick in the crouch....all they are asking for is pipelines....and the ROC are sticking up their noses and saying no....we love your tax dollars you send us, but we do not give a shit about your oil...or you....and we can't for the love of god figure why they are so pissed...

Indigenous Nations (the original Nations, not the First Nations that Canada created by force) have treaties with the Crown, represented in Canada by the Governor General. The treaties are not with Canada, but with the Queen. The "feds" just administer the treaties, often fraudulently. Indigenous Nations do have a say in what happens with their traditional territories and who's administering the related treaties, and so does the Queen. 

I remember clearly that Indigenous Nations in Quebec did raise the issue of their land rights and treaties amidst the separation crisis. It was a turning point, and things settled down from there: whether a "veto" exists or not, official leadership in Quebec recognized that it was a significant complication.

Leaders in both government and business in Alberta are not participating in the #Wexit nonsense, perhaps for that and other reasons. There is no serious threat of separation: Just some angry/sad oil workers venting. Understandable, but not a credible threat. 

We all know that the demise of the western oil industry means less federal tax revenue, and that Alberta may become a have-not province receiving equalization. That's life. 

[taxme]

On 11/18/2019 at 6:24 PM, cougar said:

By importing products manufactured in China, our government endorses this type of production!    And to be honest I am not shocked.  I have seem terrible places in Canada too.

If our dear leader politicians gave a chit about Canada, they would try to encourage more jobs in Canada, rather than by the junk that communist China has to offer. Why is freedom loving Canada supporting a communist government anyway, unless our government would like to some day try and impose communism on Canada and Canadians. Imagine if we could create more manufacturing jobs in Canada, like Trump is doing in America, our unemployment stats should go down, providing they stop anymore of this mass immigration going on into Canada. There should be no terrible places in Canada. If there are, then it is the governments that have created those terrible places. Our dear leader politicians should put Canada first, no matter what, before the rest of the world. But sadly, it seems that our politicians appear to not have all that much loyalty or love all that much for Canada anymore. There loyalty today appears to be towards the rest of the world.

Somehow, I do not trust Kenney all that much. Kenney appears to be more of a federalist, and thinks more about Canada rather than Alberta. Picking a fight with Ottawa is a waste of time unless Kenney is really serious about fighting Ottawa over Alberta's interests, and not his own political interests or Ottawa's interests.

Just saying. Aw well, what more can be said. 

Edited November 22, 2019 by taxme