Kenney Picks Fight with Ottawa to Make Himself Look Good

[jacee]

On 11/10/2019 at 8:42 AM, Rue said:

You presented a partisan subjective opinion that presumes to tell Albertans what is good for them. Ironic  given you accuse others of  having delusions of grandeur. With due respect you drip with Justin Trudeau syndrome.

Albertans would be wise to listen. There's nothing but expensive appeasement of the stupidest among them in what Kenney is doing. 

He has no vision for a future for Alberta beyond oil, and that's absolutely necessary in a leader. 

[WestCanMan]

17 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

Do you think loyal Canadians would stand by and let someone wreck the country? Whether it is Alberta or Quebec, the new government of the separate state would end up calling on the Canadian Forces to give aid to the civil power. The most efficient way to make a separatist government suffer would be to target their children and other close family members. 

What makes you think that Canadians would want to target children and make people suffer? WTF is wrong with you?

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What would be the benifit to Alberta?  There would no longer be any incentive to build any pipelines. Alberta would lose access to the National parks, the oil sands and access to either coast.

Alberta wouldn't lose access to anything inside of Alberta, be it the oil sands, national parks, or anything else. Alberta just joined the country in 1905. There's no law that says they have to stay.

The economic benefit in 2018 would be that they didn't have to send $13B to the federal government in exchange for a $200M loan. Alberta has received a total of $0 from equalization payments and sent in hundreds of billions. Quebec has received $300 billion from equalization payments. Now Quebec says F-U to a pipeline because "they don't benefit from it"? F Quebec, F Canada. Confederation has always been a raw deal for Alberta and there's more to it than just the treatment of oil and coal production. 

[Queenmandy85]

Edit: second thoughts.

Edited November 12, 2019 by Queenmandy85
Thought better of it.

[ReeferMadness]

9 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

The economic benefit in 2018 would be that they didn't have to send $13B to the federal government in exchange for a $200M loan. Alberta has received a total of $0 from equalization payments and sent in hundreds of billions.

Alberta hasn't sent anything.  You don't seem to understand how Equalization works.

[ReeferMadness]

14 hours ago, Rue said:

 its presumptious and arrogant for you and I to think everything Albertans or their leader does is wrong or without  reason.

sure it is.  Which is why I never said any of that.  

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I also don't write off our oil industry or tar sands although I want us and the world off the addiction of oil.

Unless you're going to somehow rewrite the laws of economics, the most expensive oil will be priced out of the market first...

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There are two sides at least to every situation.

Sure.  When it comes to oil, there is the side of the oil industry which everyone immediately genuflects before.  Then there is the side of the workers, which is mostly ignored.  There is the side of the resource owners, the people of the Alberta.  They've been royally (royalty) screwed since King Klein instituted the great give away. The side of the environment, which, in Alberta at least, is essentially openly mocked.  The side of climate change, which Albertans apparently believe will be resolved with a bag of magic beans. Then there is the side of thinking Canadians, who wonder when it was exactly that reality departed Alberta for good.

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Please do nto tell me Trudeau is not a pro Quebec regionalist. 

You're hilarious.  Criticize me about being presumptuous about Alberta and then come back with a random and completely unfounded accusation about Trudeau.

I'm no expert or fan of Trudeau but here's what I know:

• His childhood was mostly spent in Ottawa
• When he became an adult, he chose to live in Vancouver
• On the subject of Quebec as a nation, he once said that nationalism was a 19th century notion and that recognizing Quebec as a nation went against everything his father ever believed.

Honestly, I don't know why you think what you think about Trudeau.  Personally, I think he's a lightweight who's very likable and has had some solid political instruction.  I think he went to Quebec because his family name got him elected there, not because he's some kind of secret Quebec agent.

[Queenmandy85]

Also, Trudeau is only 1/4 French at most.  :-)

However, I have to wonder why Kenny is so focused on Ottawa when Alberta's main obstacle is the Government inVictoria...specifically Weaver. That is who Premier Kenny should be sitting down with the find a solution. We seem to forget that BC has more to lose and little to gain in the petroleum export issue. 

[WestCanMan]

10 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

Alberta hasn't sent anything.  You don't seem to understand how Equalization works.

Alberta sends about $50 billion a year total to the federal government and gets less than $30B back.

Between the equalization formula and all the other ways that the federal government ends up paying money that goes back to the provinces, Alberta ends up over $20B short. Quebec gets $13B from the federal government from equalization while Alberta gets zero. Then Quebec asks why they should build a pipeline when they get nothing from it? They get quite enough from it. They always have been. They buy and sell Saudi oil and then tell Alberta to F off. I'm quite happy to F off. Saying goodbye to Quebec would be like having a tumour taken off my ass.  

You don't seem to understand what getting ripped off feels like. This isn't an exercise in semantics. 

 

 

[jacee]

1 hour ago, WestCanMan said:

Alberta sends about $50 billion a year total to the federal government and gets less than $30B back.

Between the equalization formula and all the other ways that the federal government ends up paying money that goes back to the provinces, Alberta ends up over $20B short. Quebec gets $13B from the federal government from equalization while Alberta gets zero. Then Quebec asks why they should build a pipeline when they get nothing from it? They get quite enough from it. They always have been. They buy and sell Saudi oil and then tell Alberta to F off. I'm quite happy to F off. Saying goodbye to Quebec would be like having a tumour taken off my ass.  

You don't seem to understand what getting ripped off feels like. This isn't an exercise in semantics. 

 

 

Alberta isn't getting ripped off.

Albertans pay more income tax to Ottawa because on Albertans make more money than Canadians in other provinces. Are we supposed to feel sorry for you about that?! 

You've had a good run, pissed it all away and not prepared for a future beyond oil, so that may change as the oil industry becomes obsolete. Then Alberta may again be a beneficiary of equalization. 

Is that what you hope for? 

Do you hope for more Albertans to become unemployed or low wage workers, or old and poor, so that you can receive more money from Ottawa? 

Because those are your choices. 

Edited November 12, 2019 by jacee

[eyeball]

On 11/10/2019 at 9:44 PM, PPC2019 said:

If you support Canadian pipelines, you stop billions of dollars going to a kingdom that chops peoples heads off for witchcraft.

If I support Canadian pipelines I'll be complicit in sending oil to a dictatorship that chops people up for its organ transplant industry.

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, eyeball said:

If I support Canadian pipelines I'll be complicit in sending oil to a dictatorship that chops people up for its organ transplant industry.

Not really the same thing. 

China will get oil regardless of whether or not you're complicit in building the pipeline, but Saudi Arabia's oil is worth less on the global market when another big supplier comes into play. 

[eyeball]

16 minutes ago, WestCanMan said:

Not really the same thing. 

 

Any reason to think you'd be saying something different if China's dictators were chopping up little kids for the restaurant industry?

Where's the line for you people anyway?

[cannuck]

On 11/10/2019 at 10:22 PM, Queenmandy85 said:

You don't think Canadians will object violently to some traitor out to destroy our country? When someone is lower than a slug that's too low to kick and too wet to step on, you hurt them. the best way to hurt them is kill their children.

We, the people ELECTED said traitor, and his Father.

[ReeferMadness]

On 11/12/2019 at 10:07 AM, WestCanMan said:

Alberta sends about $50 billion a year total to the federal government and gets less than $30B back.

Between the equalization formula and all the other ways that the federal government ends up paying money that goes back to the provinces, Alberta ends up over $20B short. Quebec gets $13B from the federal government from equalization while Alberta gets zero. Then Quebec asks why they should build a pipeline when they get nothing from it? They get quite enough from it. They always have been. They buy and sell Saudi oil and then tell Alberta to F off. I'm quite happy to F off. Saying goodbye to Quebec would be like having a tumour taken off my ass.  

You don't seem to understand what getting ripped off feels like. This isn't an exercise in semantics. 

 

 

I understand very well.

I understand Alberta is the author of its own misfortunes.  I understand that 30 or so years ago, they elected a beer-guzzling ex-mayor whose main qualification was that he publicly referred to people from Central Canada as "eastern bums and creeps".  He later showed himself to be so completely out of touch with his own electorate that in a drunken haze, he publicly lambasted and abused people in a homeless shelter, not understanding some of them had full time jobs but couldn't afford rent on what they were making.  But back to the main point.

He wanted companies to come in and develop Alberta's low quality tar sands badly.  He wanted it so badly, he offered a sweetheart deal.  They were offered oil at a 1% royalty rate (essentially free oil) until they paid off the huge investments necessary to develop the tar sands.  The result was predictable.

There was a stampede of companies rushing into the tar sands.  Since they were paying for the development costs with essentially free oil, they had zero incentive to be efficient.  They rushed in like coke-addled rhinos. They distorted the labor-market, bidding up the cost of semi-skilled and unskilled labor which is why Alberta now has Canada's most overpaid workforce.  There was so much money sloshing around, people were flying in to Alberta to work their shifts. The resulting gold-rush bid up the cost of real estate, causing increased homelessness (see above).  They increased  Canada's GDP in a way that didn't really increase Canada's wealth, since most of the money just flowed out of the country to reward foreign shareholders or pay for expensive equipment, the vast majority of which was manufactured elsewhere.  It did, however, artificially increase the value of the Canadian dollar, which resulted in manufacturers in other provinces being less able to compete on the world market.  Never once have I seen an Albertan cry over Ontario jobs lost due to our bouncing petro-dollar. 

Here's what people don't seem to get.  Alberta's boom didn't come from selling oil. They're produce 3 million barrels a day!  It came from from building massive infrastructure to mine bitumen so that it could be shipped out to American refineries.  These are plants which last for decades so an economy based on building new plants is the height of economic delusion.  Such is Alberta.

So, now where do things sit?  Alberta is running a massive deficit, trading in delusional conspiracy theories, carrying ~$300 billion in unfunded clean-up liabilities, and going all in on a dying industry while oil companies thank them by giving them the finger while leaving.  Kenney is determined to give away every last public dollar to the oil industry before it goes under.

So you want to know who's to blame?  Look in the mirror.  And stop whining.

 

[WestCanMan]

1 hour ago, ReeferMadness said:

I understand very well.

I understand Alberta is the author of its own misfortunes.  I understand that 30 or so years ago, they elected a beer-guzzling ex-mayor whose main qualification was that he publicly referred to people from Central Canada as "eastern bums and creeps".  He later showed himself to be so completely out of touch with his own electorate that in a drunken haze, he publicly lambasted and abused people in a homeless shelter, not understanding some of them had full time jobs but couldn't afford rent on what they were making.  But back to the main point.

He wanted companies to come in and develop Alberta's low quality tar sands badly.  He wanted it so badly, he offered a sweetheart deal.  They were offered oil at a 1% royalty rate (essentially free oil) until they paid off the huge investments necessary to develop the tar sands.  The result was predictable.

There was a stampede of companies rushing into the tar sands.  Since they were paying for the development costs with essentially free oil, they had zero incentive to be efficient.  They rushed in like coke-addled rhinos. They distorted the labor-market, bidding up the cost of semi-skilled and unskilled labor which is why Alberta now has Canada's most overpaid workforce.  There was so much money sloshing around, people were flying in to Alberta to work their shifts. The resulting gold-rush bid up the cost of real estate, causing increased homelessness (see above).  They increased  Canada's GDP in a way that didn't really increase Canada's wealth, since most of the money just flowed out of the country to reward foreign shareholders or pay for expensive equipment, the vast majority of which was manufactured elsewhere.  It did, however, artificially increase the value of the Canadian dollar, which resulted in manufacturers in other provinces being less able to compete on the world market.  Never once have I seen an Albertan cry over Ontario jobs lost due to our bouncing petro-dollar. 

Here's what people don't seem to get.  Alberta's boom didn't come from selling oil. They're produce 3 million barrels a day!  It came from from building massive infrastructure to mine bitumen so that it could be shipped out to American refineries.  These are plants which last for decades so an economy based on building new plants is the height of economic delusion.  Such is Alberta.

So, now where do things sit?  Alberta is running a massive deficit, trading in delusional conspiracy theories, carrying ~$300 billion in unfunded clean-up liabilities, and going all in on a dying industry while oil companies thank them by giving them the finger while leaving.  Kenney is determined to give away every last public dollar to the oil industry before it goes under.

So you want to know who's to blame?  Look in the mirror.  And stop whining.

 

Ooh, such a dramatic post. 

FYI the oilsands isn't like a big aquifer of oil down where you can just stick in a straw and suck it all out. The stampede of companies coming to invest money in the tarsands was necessary to create the technology and produce the means to provide hundreds of billions of dollars to Canada's economy. When oil was under $20 per barrel and technology wasn't where it's at today it wasn't profitable to extract it. Saskatchewan's oil reserves were barely touched.

Did you think that the Alberta government should have just built up the oil patch all by themselves like some socialist hellhole? 

With all the modern technology of 2019 they're still only getting a small percentage of all the oil out. 

So who's to blame for us not getting our oil to markets where we can get more than 50% of what it's worth? Get a life. Lol, who am I kidding? Just keep smoking up.

 

 

 

[Rue]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 3:36 PM, jacee said:

Albertans would be wise to listen. There's nothing but expensive appeasement of the stupidest among them in what Kenney is doing. 

He has no vision for a future for Alberta beyond oil, and that's absolutely necessary in a leader. 

Do you hold Trudeau and the Premier of Quebec to the same standard? Of course not. The last sentence applies to them as well. Alberta does not operate in a vacuum. It reacts to policies from the current federal government and the other provinces to protect itself. It is absolutely ridiculous to single out Alberta when Trudeau sold out Canada's best interests for his own riding's needs and admitted it. Its absolutely ridiculous to single out Alberta when the Quebec Premier demands Quebec before Canada and 30 separatists from Quebec get paid Canadian tax money to control the current Premier to  put Quebec needs first. 

Alberta has the right to protect itself and nothing it has done in regards to oil policy has been independent of federal policies controlling what it could do. If Alberta has problems its directly related to federal policies that conflicted with its best interests not anything it did wrong. Being dependent on oil was not something Alberta set out to do. World market prices and federal control over it, created that.

As long as this country is a buttox being kicked by Quebec and has spineless  gutless prancing parading posturing posing patoots like Trudeau, every province including Alberta will feel polarized.

Edited November 16, 2019 by Rue

[taxme]

On 11/9/2019 at 10:22 PM, ReeferMadness said:

Delusions of Grandeur

Not content with torpedoing Alberta's finances with an idiotic tax cut that just gave money to corporations as they abandon an oil industry with no future, Kenney threatened to further sink the province by threatening additional billions of dollars in expenditures to set up vast new bureaucracies to cover in the fiefdom of Alberta.

Albertans themselves can be forgiven for supporting or at least ignoring this delusional lunacy.  After all, there hasn't been a major political or media figure who's been honest with them about their oil industry in at least 30 years.  Their oil wealth has been stolen from under their noses and handed to big oil companies.  Their bribe was having no sales tax.

But for Kenney, he knows he can't make good on his election promises so he's going for the oldest trick in the book.  Distract the people by trying to focus everyone on an external enemy.  It's beyond pathetic but in Alberta, it makes for good politics.

 

What? Are you just new to politics? Every political leader in every political party in Canada does the same thing. They all try to distract the foolish Canadian ones by trying to get them believe and get them to focus everyone on an external or home grown enemy. Kenney is no different to Notley. She was a devious biotch socialist who could have cared less about Alberta's oil industry. Notley tried to destroy the oil industry in Alberta. Corporations and the free enterprise system create the jobs. All the government does is to create a bigger bureaucracy to try and control and stifle the freedoms of free enterprise and corporations from becoming too big, and creating new jobs. Canada has become a house of lunacy.

Trudeau liberalism and NDP socialism have shown us all that they are clueless when it comes to creating new jobs. Those two only believe in control and big government over we the working taxpaying people. Give me a break. It's not hard to see that you are a socialist, right? It's a wonder that the NDP in Alberta do not try to "impeach" Kenney in the next four years. Geez, if they only could? Lol. 

[taxme]

15 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Ooh, such a dramatic post. 

FYI the oilsands isn't like a big aquifer of oil down where you can just stick in a straw and suck it all out. The stampede of companies coming to invest money in the tarsands was necessary to create the technology and produce the means to provide hundreds of billions of dollars to Canada's economy. When oil was under $20 per barrel and technology wasn't where it's at today it wasn't profitable to extract it. Saskatchewan's oil reserves were barely touched.

Did you think that the Alberta government should have just built up the oil patch all by themselves like some socialist hellhole? 

With all the modern technology of 2019 they're still only getting a small percentage of all the oil out. 

So who's to blame for us not getting our oil to markets where we can get more than 50% of what it's worth? Get a life. Lol, who am I kidding? Just keep smoking up.

 

 

 

It looks like there will be more people smoking up these days, and that will continue to create more silly leftist liberal no minded people foolishly talk even more. And of course all this smoking stuff will be clouding up their leftist liberal smokie heads. Marijuana does not make people smart. It makes them dumb, their brains goes into slow gear, just the way our politicians want most Canadians to be. Drive their brains in the slow lane. As if most Canadians were not dumb enough already, this will only help out tremendously for our dear leaders who will take advantage of and make most Canadians dumber even more for the politicians to make asses off. Try talking to someone after they have smoked a joint or two? They go docile and start to look stupid. One could say hello to them, and they would be stuck for an answer. 

[ReeferMadness]

20 hours ago, WestCanMan said:

Ooh, such a dramatic post.

By dramatic, I assume you mean true.  When you've existed on a steady diet of fiction for so long, no doubt the truth does seem a bit dramatic.

Quote

FYI the oilsands isn't like a big aquifer of oil down where you can just stick in a straw and suck it all out. The stampede of companies coming to invest money in the tarsands was necessary to create the technology and produce the means to provide hundreds of billions of dollars to Canada's economy. When oil was under $20 per barrel and technology wasn't where it's at today it wasn't profitable to extract it. Saskatchewan's oil reserves were barely touched.

I grew up in northern Alberta back when they were still called tar sands.  Thanks for the "education".

Quote

Did you think that the Alberta government should have just built up the oil patch all by themselves like some socialist hellhole? 

Oh,  You mean a socialist hellhole like Norway where they now have a sovereign wealth fund worth $1.2 trillion and some of the world's best social programs?  Yeah, that would really suck.  I'm sure you're glad you're not in their shoes. 

Canada had a national oil company but sold it when it wasn't worth much because Mulroney wanted to suck up to Alberta.  Alberta invested in tar sands technology as part of Alberta Energy Corporation but sold it at at a time it wasn't worth much because... well, because it's Alberta.  In Norway, they take care of the people and the oil companies are expected to look out for themselves.  In Alberta, they take care of the oil companies and the people?  Whatever, right.

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So who's to blame for us not getting our oil to markets where we can get more than 50% of what it's worth?

You're asking the wrong question.  Why are you shipping raw bitumen out of the province instead of refining it?  Why are the royalties and taxes so low that money is being piped out of the province faster than the oil?  Why are you producing 3 million barrels a day and still running a multi-billion dollar deficit?  Gross incompetence.

 

[ReeferMadness]

5 hours ago, taxme said:

What? Are you just new to politics? Every political leader in every political party in Canada does the same thing. They all try to distract the foolish Canadian ones by trying to get them believe and get them to focus everyone on an external or home grown enemy. Kenney is no different to Notley. She was a devious biotch socialist who could have cared less about Alberta's oil industry. Notley tried to destroy the oil industry in Alberta. Corporations and the free enterprise system create the jobs. All the government does is to create a bigger bureaucracy to try and control and stifle the freedoms of free enterprise and corporations from becoming too big, and creating new jobs. Canada has become a house of lunacy.

Trudeau liberalism and NDP socialism have shown us all that they are clueless when it comes to creating new jobs. Those two only believe in control and big government over we the working taxpaying people. Give me a break. It's not hard to see that you are a socialist, right? It's a wonder that the NDP in Alberta do not try to "impeach" Kenney in the next four years. Geez, if they only could? Lol. 

 

 

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She was a devious biotch socialist

Note to the moderators:  I see you've chosen to ignore the misogynist reference to Rachel Notley.  Not surprising - right wingers get away with anything on MLW.

 

[ReeferMadness]

Here is some honesty from Alberta that you don't see from the main parties, who are more comfortable just feeding the myths.

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Transition is difficult at any time, and particularly in a recession. But responsible leaders do not ignore the science pointing to a climate tipping point in a decade. This is not the time to double down on fossil fuel stimulus, investment and subsidies. Nor is blaming the federal government (in power for just over one term) for the lack of pipelines.

 

[Rue]

Reefer I disagree with you  on Alberta but I like your ability to state the positions you do. I believe Alberta does have to take some responsibility for its situation just not all of it. I also believe Quebec most certainly is treated far more favourably than Alberta by the federal government and Quebec and the rest of Canada has benefitted when things have gone well in Alberta,  Redistributing or building alternative sources of economic revenue other than oil is of course a valid argument. I would never argue against that. I also quite frankly wish we could wean ourselves off oil. I am a strong believer in natural gas as a safe clean energy source. Anyways do not take it to seriously when you are debated. On this forum we insult all politicians female or male or transgender. No one specifically hates Rachel for having been a woman. The truth is we hated her because she was a midget. We hate midgets. No no I was joking dude. I am sorry I am a Don Cherryite.  I am politically inappropriate. Actually Rachel Notley for a socialist was not that different then her predecessor Conservative Premiers when it came to defending Alberta oil interests. Its the nature of how our federal-provincial relations work. They were designed to be in constant tension to generate policies.

[eyeball]

On 11/16/2019 at 12:30 AM, WestCanMan said:

Did you think that the Alberta government should have just built up the oil patch all by themselves like some socialist hellhole?

It should have built it up like Norway's.  In retrospect and light of Alberta and Canada's incompetence Norway should have been hired to build it for us.

[cougar]

On 11/10/2019 at 7:23 PM, WestCanMan said:

Huh?

Why should Canadians be mad if Alberta wants to separate? If Alberta wants out then it's their right to leave.

I will fully support them in their desires to leave.  Then we, in BC, can impose a visa regime on them, to the point where they can abandon their summer cottages on our lakes.

No more running to Ottawa with threats of pipelines and no more leverage to build those pipelines.  Nice!

[taxme]

16 hours ago, ReeferMadness said:

 

 

Note to the moderators:  I see you've chosen to ignore the misogynist reference to Rachel Notley.  Not surprising - right wingers get away with anything on MLW.

 

Welcome to offended Canada. Say something that appears to offend someone, and they want them shut down. I guess that we all must now know as to how Don Cherry feels these days. I would think that it is safe to say that there has to be at least millions of offensive words being said in Canada every day towards someone or some group. Offending someone will never end, and so I guess that you are just going to have to learn to live with it. I have been offended here many times, and I accept it as a part of life and debating.

I have been called a liar, anti-semite, white supremacist, anti-immigrant, and other nasty words which I found very offensive to me but did I cry me a river over those words? NOPE. If offending someone eventually results in some new laws being created,  well then, I guess no one dare criticize anyone or any group anymore for fear of being arrested and charged for hurting someones hurt feelings. It's political correctness gone mad. 

[taxme]

On 11/11/2019 at 12:36 PM, jacee said:

Albertans would be wise to listen. There's nothing but expensive appeasement of the stupidest among them in what Kenney is doing. 

He has no vision for a future for Alberta beyond oil, and that's absolutely necessary in a leader. 

What? Listen to Notley all over again? What did she do for Alberta while she was the premier? Oil is Alberta's main industry. Kenney must fight for the oil industry in Alberta or Alberta will die. Creating more government and more bureaucrats like Notley had done will do nothing for Alberta except to just continue on in bringing the Alberta economy into the ground. 

Notley had no vision for Alberta either except for more government. As a socialist, the only thing that Notley was great for was to create more problems for the taxpayer's of Alberta. Liberals and socialists only create more problems, rather than try to solve any problems. What else is Alberta known for besides oil?  Cold winters? Just curious.