What to do about China

[SpankyMcFarland]

Another building block slips into place:

https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2021/3/27/iran-and-china-sign-25-year-cooperation-agreement-in-tehran

Four countries - Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, and Turkey (to say nothing of the Stans) - seem to be heading towards a heady mélange of Islamic theocracy and Chinese domination. The systems may have their differences on whether to worship Mao or a Man Upstairs but fortunately there is agreement that dissent of any sort must be wiped out. One mantra Erdoğan and Imran Khan have already perfected for their new masters: Uighurs, what Uighurs? 

 

Edited March 28, 2021 by SpankyMcFarland

[OftenWrong]

50 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Well, I have.

2. I'm at a complete loss as to what you're saying. 

3. Hopefully Argus will address your point and the conversation will move forward.

Let's try it by-the-numbers then.

1. You mean followed the news, like a dog follows its master?

2. You don't get it, again. Maybe it's just you refuse to. On the other hand, I understand you perfectly well.

3. Hopefully. I'm sure Argus knows what I mean, by my tone.

[Moonlight Graham]

On 3/19/2021 at 2:33 PM, Right To Left said:

For some mysterious reasons of cognitive dissonance,

WHAT TO DO ABOUT CHINA???? 

doesn't seem to connect with,

Why Has There Been a Spike of Anti-Asian Hate?

A person can dislike the actions of the Chinese government and they have every right to, and can do so while also not hating Asian/Chinese people in general, and they have zero responsibility towards those that are racist.

The general purpose of this thread isn't race-based and isn't racist in any way whatsoever.

[SpankyMcFarland]

One modest local contribution we can make is to radically jack up rare earth production and reduce global dependence on China and Myanmar. 

Edited March 28, 2021 by SpankyMcFarland

[Right To Left]

1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said:

A person can dislike the actions of the Chinese government and they have every right to, and can do so while also not hating Asian/Chinese people in general, and they have zero responsibility towards those that are racist.

The general purpose of this thread isn't race-based and isn't racist in any way whatsoever.

If it wasn't for the increasing shift toward identity race-based politics in recent times, I might actually agree with you. But, that's not the world we live in today!

Even if we're talking white people, I remember a couple of stories about French restaurant owners in New York City closing down after the French president (Jacques Chirac) refused to join "the coalition of the willing," and went on a little too long about how the US invasion of Iraq in 2003 (anyone still remember this?) was a violation of standards of international law and especially - rules of war. 

And sure enough, a cynical motley combination of Republican politicians and Fox News started a campaign to erase the word 'french' from American terminology.... so french fries became FREEDOM fries, and something similar with french toast, french dressing and other earth-shaking important language alterations. And it seems like there were still enough idiots in NYC two years after 9-11 (nothing to do with Iraq or Saddam) in 03, to organize boycotts of french restaurants, vandalize and threaten staff, and lead many longtime owners of French restaurants to shut down at least temporarily rather than risk worse attacks from all the clowns running around back then who believed Curveball's WMD stories and that their country had a need and even a right to just go barnstorming in to a foreign country and try to overrun everything...turning over its oil industry to mostly US companies. Everything french was under attack because France had a president who wouldn't go along with the invasion.

Now, if that shit can happen if someone thinks you're French, what the hell happens if you're a member of a visible minority and confronted by neanderthals who think everyone who's Asian is Chinese and also a spy or something worse! Or just wants to do their part to go to war with China.....without actually having to sign up and go fight it!

 

[Moonlight Graham]

31 minutes ago, Right To Left said:

Now, if that shit can happen if someone thinks you're French, what the hell happens if you're a member of a visible minority and confronted by neanderthals who think everyone who's Asian is Chinese and also a spy or something worse! Or just wants to do their part to go to war with China.....without actually having to sign up and go fight it!

So what are you saying?  We shouldn't criticize the Chinese government?

If somebody is racist towards Chinese people that's 100% on them and not my fault or anyone else's fault in any way whatsoever.  Everyone is 100% responsible for their own actions.  That's how the courts work, that's how real life works.

The solution isn't to STFU so to not stir up the morons, the solution is to tell people not to be racist by illogically blaming all Asian westerners for the actions of jerkhole politicians in a far away country.

[Right To Left]

18 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

So what are you saying?  We shouldn't criticize the Chinese government?

If somebody is racist towards Chinese people that's 100% on them and not my fault or anyone else's fault in any way whatsoever.  Everyone is 100% responsible for their own actions.  That's how the courts work, that's how real life works.

The solution isn't to STFU so to not stir up the morons, the solution is to tell people not to be racist by illogically blaming all Asian westerners for the actions of jerkhole politicians in a far away country.

Well, let's look at the "China Virus" talk in particular, that started after Trump realized/or was told by his advisers that there would be no cheap way to end the pandemic and reopen everything. After that Trump, and mostly rightwingers, but a lot on the other side have been repeating BS conspiracy theories. 

Anyone who looks at the garbage coming from Rebel Media ..... which likely originates at Epoch Times, seem to be last to realize that China had to do with the Covid-19 pandemic first. And back in January of last year, some of the Democrats were gloating that the new pandemic had found the Achilles heel to take down China's economic growth. 

When it comes to "what to do about China," I want to see real stories that are based on real evidence behind the claims of Hong Kong and Uyghur genocides that make no sense looking at real numbers. 

And on this count, since I touched on the propaganda and misinformation on another thread that accompanied the Iraq Invasion 18 years ago. Looking back, it's demoralizing now to go back over a time when MSM wasn't all lined up as paid hacks for government leaders and agencies, and would actually challenge claims made at press conferences. 

But now, the supposedly 'liberal' MSM and their smaller supposedly conservative brethren on the other side, will never question any wisdom coming from the White House, State Dept., CIA, FBI etc.. 

Then there is the added issue of who does and who does not have moral standing to accuse others of war crimes and human rights abuses. One thing for certain, it should not be the same country claiming genocide elsewhere, that can be tied to more than a million dead Iraqis, half a million dead Syrians plus millions of refugees who've fled Libya, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, Yemen, because of US drones, bombs dropped and killings and attacks committed by "moderate" rebel allies in these countries, who have been interchangeable the same Al Qaeda groups known as terrorists when they attack US or US allied targets, or some rando Muslim gets to buy a lethal gun before going off on a rampage for whatever reasons and kills 10 people!

It's difficult to tell truth from lies when you have so little confidence and so little respect in our 'news' media sources today. But, from what I can gather over the past 20 years, we....as part of the US-NATO umbrella have more to be found guilty of than whatever China, Russia, Iran, Venezuela or Yemen are really doing over there!

[bush_cheney2004]

10 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Our politicians have failed us, they sold us out long ago, and this is a result.  The only ones who can fix things is the people, by pressuring our politicians, and by voting with your dollars.  I have already been boycotting all electronics and software made by Chinese companies, and will probably extend by boycotts.  Hauwei IT products are still allowed to be bought and sold in Canada LOL.

 

Too late for that, and Canada gets more excited and organized about boycotting American products like Heinz ketchup than Chinese electronics or a myriad of other goods.  And even if you did, Chinese parts are now more integrated into global supply chains and products than anything Canada could fathom to boycott anyway.

Frankly, it was easier to get Canadians to hate Trump (and his base) than the Chinese government....very ironic since it was Trump that challenged China while the peanut gallery did mostly nothing but business as usual, including Canada.

Economics trumps virtue...as always.

 

 

[cannuck]

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Exactly.  But who will "bell the cat" as it were.  The West, with it's unmanageable public and changing governments will be difficult to get onside with this - and with the economic hardship that will result.

You need a reality check on the "economic hardships" front.  What we HAVE is economic hardship from shipping all of our value added production to a foreign nation that does not share our ideas of quality control, honesty and ethics in making the things that are draining OUR economy dry.   If full and meaningful employment and using the financial and natural resources on hand are your idea of "economic hardship" then bring it on.

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

You need a reality check on the "economic hardships" front.  What we HAVE is economic hardship from shipping all of our value added production to a foreign nation that does not share our ideas of quality control, honesty and ethics in making the things that are draining OUR economy dry.   If full and meaningful employment and using the financial and natural resources on hand are your idea of "economic hardship" then bring it on.

Just to be clear, are you saying there will be no hardship for this change? or are you saying there will be but it's worth it?

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Too late for that, and Canada gets more excited and organized about boycotting American products like Heinz ketchup than Chinese electronics or a myriad of other goods.  And even if you did, Chinese parts are now more integrated into global supply chains and products than anything Canada could fathom to boycott anyway.

Frankly, it was easier to get Canadians to hate Trump (and his base) than the Chinese government....very ironic since it was Trump that challenged China while the peanut gallery did mostly nothing but business as usual, including Canada.

Economics trumps virtue...as always.

I guess we'll see.  A lot of Canadians are low on China now, especially with the "two Michael's" stuff.

We're not talking about virtue.  We're talking pure power politics, national security, and a new Cold War.  Masses of people won't boycott CHinese goods because of Uyghurs, but they'll do it if the CCP is an existential threat to their countries, which they're slowly becoming.  Nazi Germany 2.0.  Trump didn't rightfully ban Tik Tok and Hauwei for virtue or economics.

[Moonlight Graham]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Just to be clear, are you saying there will be no hardship for this change? or are you saying there will be but it's worth it?

Obviously there will be economic hardship, at least in the short term.  There's 1.3 billion people in India that I'm sure are willing to fasten together some plastic Walmart junk for Western companies.

The thing is the West doesn't have to turn away from China forever, we just need to build leverage so that we have the power to set the terms.  This is all about leverage.  China is leveraging its power against us and other allies to make us bend to its will where it can.  This is Machiavellian power politics and nothing else.  Making plans to move tens of million of manufacturing jobs to India or slapping tariffs or banning goods (leverage) would certainly make them rethink their positions.

Canada or the US or Australia or the UK etc should never be found in a position where they need to kiss the feet of the CCP.  If the West were united in a trade and security bloc against China then the 2 Michaels would be home by dinner or else the CCP would suffer economic consequences from every Western government, and the same should happen if any of our allies are in the same position.  We should not have merely bilateral relations with them, it should be multilateral:  West vs China.  And we can leverage other allies like India, South Korea, Japan etc while we're at it.  China is certainly teaming up with Russia and Iran where it can against us.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1) Obviously there will be economic hardship, at least in the short term.  There's 1.3 billion people in India that I'm sure are willing to fasten together some plastic Walmart junk for Western companies.

2) The thing is the West doesn't have to turn away from China forever, we just need to build leverage so that we have the power to set the terms.  This is all about leverage.  China is leveraging its power against us and other allies to make us bend to its will where it can.  This is Machiavellian power politics and nothing else.  Making plans to move tens of million of manufacturing jobs to India or slapping tariffs or banning goods (leverage) would certainly make them rethink their positions.

3) Canada or the US or Australia or the UK etc should never be found in a position where they need to kiss the feet of the CCP.  If the West were united in a trade and security bloc against China then the 2 Michaels would be home by dinner or else the CCP would suffer economic consequences from every Western government, and the same should happen if any of our allies are in the same position.  We should not have merely bilateral relations with them, it should be multilateral:  West vs China.  And we can leverage other allies like India, South Korea, Japan etc while we're at it.  China is certainly teaming up with Russia and Iran where it can against us.

1) Well... I wasn't asking you but your take on it is more what I think also.  Not just Walmart junk, but smart phones, electronics, clothing and so on.  If you don't import them from China they will still come from there via another country.   By my math, China sends about $1,200 in goods to each Canadian on average per year.  

2) Yes - I agree but also it has to be done just so.  A power move could push them to dig in.

3) I mentioned 'belling the cat' above.
 

[bush_cheney2004]

26 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

I guess we'll see.  A lot of Canadians are low on China now, especially with the "two Michael's" stuff.

 

The "two Michaels stuff" is a political side show with no significant lasting impact in the larger scheme of things.   Hell, there are far more Canadians locked up in the U.S., Canada's "most important ally".   There fate does not form the foundation of a lasting policy change either way.   

Quote

We're not talking about virtue.  We're talking pure power politics, national security, and a new Cold War.  Masses of people won't boycott CHinese goods because of Uyghurs, but they'll do it if the CCP is an existential threat to their countries, which they're slowly becoming.  Nazi Germany 2.0.  Trump didn't rightfully ban Tik Tok and Hauwei for virtue or economics.

 

Good...then Canada should stop talking about the virtues of "human rights" and other neoliberal bullcrap that has little influence on China, and has been used to criticize Canada and the West in like fashion.  

The Chinese are first and foremost pragmatists with little patience for the virtue signaling pablum that many in Canada value so dearly even as their lunch is being eaten.   China respects power, not weakness...so maybe start there...at home.

 

[Zeitgeist]

56 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The "two Michaels stuff" is a political side show with no significant lasting impact in the larger scheme of things.   Hell, there are far more Canadians locked up in the U.S., Canada's "most important ally".   There fate does not form the foundation of a lasting policy change either way.   

 

Good...then Canada should stop talking about the virtues of "human rights" and other neoliberal bullcrap that has little influence on China, and has been used to criticize Canada and the West in like fashion.  

The Chinese are first and foremost pragmatists with little patience for the virtue signaling pablum that many in Canada value so dearly even as their lunch is being eaten.   China respects power, not weakness...so maybe start there...at home.

 

This happened most fundamentally when Canada's natural ruling party, the Liberal Party of Canada, shifted left to steal votes from the NDP and get Justin elected.  JT was a vocal admirer of China and relations between China and Canada thrived until the misgivings about trade imbalances and China's increased influence caused Trump to draw lines and make sure Canada took the US side, which she did.  That's what the Meng Huawei-two Michaels morass is about.  The US asserted herself and forced the issue of Canada's allegiance.

Dig deeper and you can find a history since WW2 of Canada backing off of its real hard power (third and fourth largest air force and  navy at the end of the war), first reducing its armament production, including mach- speed aircraft under Diefenbaker, the trimming and unification of forces under pacifist Trudeau senior, and the promotion of peace-keeping as the chief symbol of Canada's military engagement (Pearson).

It happened in industry with the outsized pursuit of foreign investment, even when it became a matter of national security (sale of Nortel, China's purchase of parts of the oil patch), and an over-reliance on NAFTA and global trade (which worked to boost exports until most industry offshored).

While our interests are mostly the same as the US's, we can't talk seriously about Canada specific national interests without a restoration of some of the independence we have lost.  Pacifism and multilateralism can be Canadian tools and approaches, but only if they are freely chosen and the ability to act unilaterally and aggressively are still choices available in our toolkit.  Increasingly they are not.  

Edited March 28, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[Moonlight Graham]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

The "two Michaels stuff" is a political side show with no significant lasting impact in the larger scheme of things.   Hell, there are far more Canadians locked up in the U.S., Canada's "most important ally".   There fate does not form the foundation of a lasting policy change either way.

Foreign nationals (both white of course) arrested arbitrarily for reasons of political tit-for-tat is a pretty big deal.  China has shown it's willing to use arrests as leverage in international relations.

I find it probable they are both spies who were on China's radar, but it still ups the game either way.

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Good...then Canada should stop talking about the virtues of "human rights" and other neoliberal bullcrap that has little influence on China, and has been used to criticize Canada and the West in like fashion. 

I don't see a huge problem speaking out over atrocities and exerting pressure.  Everyone gets their hands dirty sometimes including Canada/US but other countries should call out others on their BS.  It certainly bothers China otherwise they wouldn't retaliate.

[bush_cheney2004]

30 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Foreign nationals (both white of course) arrested arbitrarily for reasons of political tit-for-tat is a pretty big deal.  China has shown it's willing to use arrests as leverage in international relations.

I find it probable they are both spies who were on China's radar, but it still ups the game either way.

 

Even if that was the case, Canada's current government failed to act decisively with retaliatory measures, and would/could not cut a deal.   There is no reason for China to alter its behaviour when the consequences from Canada are impotent and laughable.   Meng is and always was small potatoes, certainly no more important than Conrad Black or Omar Khadr.   Even her extradition hearings are taking forever.

 

Quote

I don't see a huge problem speaking out over atrocities and exerting pressure.  Everyone gets their hands dirty sometimes including Canada/US but other countries should call out others on their BS.  It certainly bothers China otherwise they wouldn't retaliate.

 

If that is all Canada has to offer up, then it can expect commensurate results.   Yapping about "atrocities" and human rights so many times while being complicit in similar behaviours at home and abroad will never, ever change China's policy.   It has to cost a lot more than a finger wagging scolding from Parliament and a minority government that abstained from the vote.

Gonna mobilize "allies" against China ?   Not with such impotent,  half-assed measures and weak Trudeau leadership.    Until something changes, Canada is just another chew toy to China.

Edited March 28, 2021 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

17 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Even if that was the case, Canada's current government failed to act decisively with retaliatory measures, and would/could not cut a deal.   There is no reason for China to alter its behaviour when the consequences from Canada are impotent and laughable.   Meng is and always was small potatoes, certainly no more important than Conrad Black or Omar Khadr.   Even her extradition hearings are taking forever.

 

 

If that is all Canada has to offer up, then it can expect commensurate results.   Yapping about "atrocities" and human rights so many times while being complicit in similar behaviours at home and abroad will never, ever change China's policy.   It has to cost a lot more than a finger wagging scolding from Parliament and a minority government that abstained from the vote.

Gonna mobilize "allies" against China ?   Not with such impotent,  half-assed measures and weak Trudeau leadership.    Until something changes, Canada is just another chew toy to China.

Yes, Harper was much stronger on China and won more respect because he started from a vocal position of, China abuses human rights, is an authoritarian regime, and is not to be trusted.  China had to earn respect in that context.

Trudeau's silence on China speaks volumes about his weakness as a leader.  It was the same when dealing  with Trump's belligerence.  He doesn't call a spade a spade.

The reality is that most of what China does is provide cheap reliable labour, which translates to cheap goods that we import.  They're not the only game in town.

Those who don't want to upset China because of some ridiculous idea that they can export goods into that country should realize that China will produce just about everything it buys domestically.  Don't give them the resources to continue their manufacturing dominance.  Instead build projects like Energy East that lower the costs of domestic manufacturing in Canada.  Yes it will mean potash and some other crop or resource sales to China will drop off as China imposes trade sanctions. So what?   Cut them off.  

Edited March 29, 2021 by Zeitgeist

[OftenWrong]

24 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

Yes it will mean potash and some other crop or resource sales to China will drop off as China imposes trade sanctions. So what?   Cut them off.  

Problem is that Canada, and especially Justin Trudeau, has no moral legs to stand on. The world sees that Canada has a long-standing problem with our natives, and Canadian government have allowed that situation to continue.

It doesn't help either that Mr. Trudeau is seen as a racist, blackface wearing PM.

What to do about China- take care of problems at home, first.

Edited March 29, 2021 by OftenWrong

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Problem is that Canada, and especially Justin Trudeau, has no moral legs to stand on. The world sees that Canada has a long-standing problem with our natives, and Canadian government have allowed that situation to continue.

It doesn't help either that Mr. Trudeau is seen as a racist, blackface wearing PM.

What to do about China- take care of problems at home, first.

Conrad Black is so right on Trudeau's big screw ups.  The TRC report has major flaws and makes claims that are exaggerated and inflammatory.  I won't debate that topic, which is discussed at length on other threads.  Trudeau's government created that assault on Canada by allowing unfair characterizations of Canadian history and founding figures to flourish in the media and institutional cultures.  Unfortunately, due to Black's own personal history, he will be the Cassandra who tells the truth but won't be believed.  This Liberal federal government is the worst federal government in my lifetime.  Rex Murphy is right on that.

[SpankyMcFarland]

The insults are getting really retro now:

Quote

“Boy, your greatest achievement is to have ruined the friendly relations between China and Canada, and have turned Canada into a running dog of the U.S,” he tweeted.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/29/china-canada-justin-trudeau-tensions-escalate

 

[Zeitgeist]

8 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

The insults are getting really retro now:

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/mar/29/china-canada-justin-trudeau-tensions-escalate

 

Actually this is extremely unprofessional behaviour from a diplomat.  He should be fired for such irresponsible comments.  Really Canada should take a diplomatic stand on this.  Taking the high road and being a doormat aren't the same thing.  The Chinese government's behaviour is backwards and antiquated.  If Trudeau has no self-respect, why should he hold office?

[SpankyMcFarland]

4 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Actually this is extremely unprofessional behaviour from a diplomat.  He should be fired for such irresponsible comments. 

The English in these tweets is invariably all over the place as well. Can’t they get one of their many Ivy League grads to review them first?
 

 

Edited March 30, 2021 by SpankyMcFarland

[SpankyMcFarland]

One Conservative leader I would definitely vote for if he ever got the top job: Michael Chong. 

[cannuck]

On 3/28/2021 at 7:50 AM, Michael Hardner said:

Just to be clear, are you saying there will be no hardship for this change? or are you saying there will be but it's worth it?

It is not only "worth" it, but required to restore our "direction" within the continuum.  We are sliding into useless tit hell from our dependence on consumerism and cheap shit from China.  It is just that the borrowing power of governments can mask the decline from Joe Lunchbucket - who seems to be exactly as his white collar compatriots totally ignorant of just how much debt we have racked up both publicly and privately - and what could ultimately cost in the end.

Edited April 4, 2021 by cannuck