bush_cheney2004 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. Relative to size, yes. But no. It is unrealistic for Canada to always rely on "allies" when it cannot contribute to the presumed collective with equal economic and military measure. Quote 2. Yes, another acknowledgement with the attendant resentment that comes from being guilted by you repeatedly. Resentment is healthy on a national scale if it leads to more independent and "Canada first" policies. Instead, PM Trudeau is already begging Biden for things before he is even inaugurated. Quote 3. This is an economic union, though. Canada's problems are aligned with the others' if China plays us off against each other. As stated before, Canada cannot expect relief from global economic competition because of geopolitical alliances. Too often Canada uses "allies" as an excuse for not competing, and remains overly dependent on one nation's economy (U.S.) despite recent "free trade" deals. If it comes down to picking Canada or China, what does Canada have to offer ? 1 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Michael Hardner Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: 1. It is unrealistic for Canada to always rely on "allies" when it cannot contribute to the presumed collective with equal economic and military measure. 2. Resentment is healthy on a national scale if it leads to more independent and "Canada first" policies. Instead, PM Trudeau is already begging Biden for things before he is even inaugurated. 3. As stated before, Canada cannot expect relief from global economic competition because of geopolitical alliances. Too often Canada uses "allies" as an excuse for not competing, and remains overly dependent on one nation's economy (U.S.) despite recent "free trade" deals. 4. If it comes down to picking Canada or China, what does Canada have to offer ? 1. Tell your government then. They keep us around for some reason, I'm sure. Maybe because you own much of the country ? Dunno. 2. Noted. 3. If the allies don't want to band together, then they won't. For sure Canada isn't going to dupe them. 4. You could ask this question of many alliances. Please don't ask me why the US formed NATO, and other alliances. You know what the reasons are. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 (edited) 10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: 1. Tell your government then. They keep us around for some reason, I'm sure. Maybe because you own much of the country ? Dunno. 2. Noted. 3. If the allies don't want to band together, then they won't. For sure Canada isn't going to dupe them. 4. You could ask this question of many alliances. Please don't ask me why the US formed NATO, and other alliances. You know what the reasons are. 1. My government doesn't own so much....corporate America does. Canadian corps also own many foreign subsidiaries. China has done the same. 2. Maybe Biden will ask for something in trade. 3. Banding together only occurs for narrow interests, not broad economic policy. Choosing China over Canada is not a very difficult decision for bean counters. 4. The Soviet Union no longer exists. NATO only serves to exaggerate the disparities between member nations and commensurate impact on NATO policies. Edited January 20, 2021 by bush_cheney2004 1 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
OftenWrong Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 "Tell your government then." In Canada we cannot tell our own government. Mr. Trudeau has made his claim about Canada and China. He will only smile and gush about how wonderful a nation China is whenever he speaks about them publicly. Right now there is no other option. So don't expect anything to be "done" about China from this country. Not while we have this gang of leaders, and I'm not saying the other current party leaders would or could do any different. We can only meekly and quietly follow the USA's lead. What to do about China you say? Stay close to America. Hide under her wings. Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 1 hour ago, OftenWrong said: 1. In Canada we cannot tell our own government. Mr. Trudeau has made his claim about Canada and China. He will only smile and gush about how wonderful a nation China is whenever he speaks about them publicly. Right now there is no other option. 2. So don't expect anything to be "done" about China from this country. Not while we have this gang of leaders, and I'm not saying the other current party leaders would or could do any different. We can only meekly and quietly follow the USA's lead. 3. What to do about China you say? Stay close to America. Hide under her wings. 1. Maybe we can focus on the economics instead of the politics. I'm fully aware that conservative supporters see Trudeau as a failure in this arena but what are the specific changes that need to be made ? I have asked for this already in this thread. 2. Ok - "leaders" - seems to implicate the Conservative Party of Canada also. Maybe this is true. 3. Well, I'm surprised that you came up with that answer but you are probably right. In my Google search I came up with two editorials, which I posted. Both say, basically, to ask our allies to help and convince them to work together. The third I found said that China will become democratic-ish soon... from 2015. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 14 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: In my Google search I came up with two editorials, which I posted. Both say, basically, to ask our allies to help and convince them to work together. The third I found said that China will become democratic-ish soon... from 2015. OK, but Canada has regressed even in this area, no longer having the "soft power" of old or "moral" imperative (e.g. Responsibility to Protect). Arguably, Canada is no longer a "middle power", does not have a strong "seat at the table", or is seen as an "honest broker"...all terms and ideology of the past and previous prime ministers. Allies would need to get something in return besides Canada's steadfast "morality". Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 32 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: OK, but Canada has regressed even in this area, no longer having the "soft power" of old or "moral" imperative (e.g. Responsibility to Protect). Arguably, Canada is no longer a "middle power", does not have a strong "seat at the table", or is seen as an "honest broker"...all terms and ideology of the past and previous prime ministers. Allies would need to get something in return besides Canada's steadfast "morality". Unfortunately true. The continuing weakening of our military and the inability to join in peacekeeping operations, or offer any kind of meaningful support to allies, combined with the venal, self-serving nature of our foreign policy - generally designed to serve domestic, often ethnic political interests have not earned Mr. Dressup a lot of respect. Combined with his habit of lecturing others it has not given Canada lot of influence in the world. The games Trudeau played around the TPP irritated a lot of countries in the Pacific, and Europe has little interest beyond its own problems, these days. That's not to say there couldn't be something done around mutual interests. We could, for example, work with Australia and a few others to make it hard for China to use its purchasing power to punish those who criticize it. Right now they're refusing to buy coal from Australia, even though they desperately need coal. We should have refused to increase our sales. Same goes for agricultural goods. We'd need a few others like Argentina to cooperate, though, and not sure how difficult that would be to persuade them. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 4 minutes ago, Argus said: That's not to say there couldn't be something done around mutual interests. We could, for example, work with Australia and a few others to make it hard for China to use its purchasing power to punish those who criticize it. Right now they're refusing to buy coal from Australia, even though they desperately need coal. We should have refused to increase our sales. Same goes for agricultural goods. We'd need a few others like Argentina to cooperate, though, and not sure how difficult that would be to persuade them. Agreed...China only respects strength, and becomes more aggressive when confronted by weakness. Canada's present government has stubbornly refused to confront China economically or diplomatically....no expulsions....no visa cancellations...no import restrictions...nothing that would "upset" China. Canada is still wavering over Huawei 5G despite obvious Five Eyes allied rejection. The "two Michaels" excuse has gone on too long. Paralysis is not policy or action....it seems that Canada is more comfortable weakly re-acting to global circumstances than taking more hard ball stances. I was no fan of Chretien, but he displayed far more backbone than does Trudeau. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 Only Harper had balls...and he was too much of a Trump for the wilting Canadian flowers. 1 Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 Just now, DogOnPorch said: Only Harper had balls...and he was too much of a Trump for the wilting Canadian flowers. There was absolutely no commonality between Trump and Harper. Harper was quiet, introspective, an introvert, really, thoughtful, a backroom sort of planner. He spent long, long hours at his desk, and even when he went home the messengers were active bringing documents back and forth between him and the PMO and PCO. Trump was a lazy, boastful narcissistic who cared about no one but himself, did almost no work, and was vastly ignorant about every facet of life outside New York city real estate. Comparing him to Harper is a huge insult to Harper. 2 Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Argus said: There was absolutely no commonality between Trump and Harper. Harper was quiet, introspective, an introvert, really, thoughtful, a backroom sort of planner. He spent long, long hours at his desk, and even when he went home the messengers were active bringing documents back and forth between him and the PMO and PCO. Trump was a lazy, boastful narcissistic who cared about no one but himself, did almost no work, and was vastly ignorant about every facet of life outside New York city real estate. Comparing him to Harper is a huge insult to Harper. I'm well aware of your rabid hatred for Donald Trump. No worries, your Joe will save America. 1 Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 14 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: I'm well aware of your rabid hatred for Donald Trump. No worries, your Joe will save America. It's not rabid hatred. Nothing I said was untrue. All of it was repeatedly demonstrated. I judge politicians (usually badly) based on their behavior and performance. I don't get man-crushes on them and swoon every time they open their mouth. 1 Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 19 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Only Harper had balls...and he was too much of a Trump for the wilting Canadian flowers. Indeed....this is also a longstanding Canadian foreign policy problem for domestic politics...how to engage without being seen as an American lapdog. So all this talk of "allies" often breaks down with the biggest and most important ally of all...the United States. Previous prime ministers were able to deftly navigate this maze by opposing U.S. administrations in public while secretly cooperating on many levels. Canadian rubes could boast how much American policy sucks while being clueless about what actually happens behind the foreign policy curtain. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
cannuck Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 26 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: I'm well aware of your rabid hatred for Donald Trump. No worries, your Joe will save America. You don't have to hate Trump to point out his obvious shortcomings as a human being. That said: he is the ONLY President in a very, very long time who had any real concern to the future of the USA. He just wasn't the best man to make his legitimate concerns work into policy and law. Bottom line: the swamp did not get drained and the alligator's puppets now run the entire country (into the ground). 1 1 Quote
Michael Hardner Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 18 minutes ago, cannuck said: 1. he is the ONLY President in a very, very long time who had any real concern to the future of the USA. He just wasn't the best man to make his legitimate concerns work into policy and law. 2. Bottom line: the swamp did not get drained and the alligator's puppets now run the entire country (into the ground). 1. What ??? You realize that he pardoned his friend Bannon who was ripping off Americans with a fake "build the wall fund" right ? I'm just focusing on his scams from the last 24 hours here 2. No, the swamp had a whole new level of predator dumped into it and the MAGAs are as confused as ever. Trump's moves against China were ineffectual. https://www.census.gov/foreign-trade/balance/c5700.html Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 12 minutes ago, cannuck said: You don't have to hate Trump to point out his obvious shortcomings as a human being. That said: he is the ONLY President in a very, very long time who had any real concern to the future of the USA. He just wasn't the best man to make his legitimate concerns work into policy and law. Bottom line: the swamp did not get drained and the alligator's puppets now run the entire country (into the ground). It was Trump's shortcomings that made him attractive. Not a career politician...unlike that snake, Joe Biden. Now we put-up...with Communism disguised as 'Social Democracy'. What many Trumpers think happened... 1. Things going well...economy on fire...China being put in its place. China very angry. 2. Democrats meet with the Reds in secret to make a plan. A good plague is what is needed. 3. Canada provides the needed bat pathogen samples. 4. The Red Chinese military builds the virus...and releases it. Perhaps not quite as they'd planed...but away she goes! Out into the world. 5. Trump blamed for virus. This despite not being a Democrat Governor... 6. Economy tanks mostly due to unreasonable lockdowns that are aimed to destroy the middle class. 7. Trump blamed for eclipses...and your cake falling in the oven. 8. Trump blamed for your ingrown toenail...and your sister's divorce. 9. Trump blamed for...did I forget something? 10. Democrats steal the election at 3 AM when nobody is bothering to watch. 11. The swamp refuses to look at any evidence of theft or wrongdoing. 12. Joe assumes his role as dictator of the USA. 13. Kamala awaits in the wings to complete the theft... Feel free to laugh...but millions BELIEVE that. Some of them are VERY angry. Feel free to continue laughing...it won't fix what's wrong. 1 Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said: Trump's moves against China were ineffectual. Trump was certainly more effective than Trudeau. Trump engaged China on many levels, including IP theft, transshipments, dumping, and tariffs. 1 Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Argus Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 24 minutes ago, cannuck said: You don't have to hate Trump to point out his obvious shortcomings as a human being. That said: he is the ONLY President in a very, very long time who had any real concern to the future of the USA. He just wasn't the best man to make his legitimate concerns work into policy and law. I would disagree that Trump had any concerns about the future - or present - of the USA. His sole concern has always been himself. He simply seized upon some of the longstanding grievances people had with regard to trade, the economic deterioration of middle America, and immigration to get elected. But there's no evidence he ever cared about any of this nor ever did anything about any of it either. Perhaps his biggest cruelty was in making middle America, so long ignored by the coastal elites, think he cared about them and was going to go to bat for them. I equate him with those heartless Nigerian scammers who find some fat girl on a dating site and start romancing her with lies only to drain her bank account and then dump her. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: Feel free to laugh... No. That's all too sad to laugh. 3 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said: but millions BELIEVE that. Some of them are VERY angry. Feel free to continue laughing...it won't fix what's wrong. A lousy education system which graduates people with little understanding of critical thinking, history, economics or reality? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
bush_cheney2004 Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 Just now, Argus said: A lousy education system which graduates people with little understanding of critical thinking, history, economics or reality? The same kind of system that leads to a PM Justin Trudeau. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 Just now, Argus said: No. That's all too sad to laugh. A lousy education system which graduates people with little understanding of critical thinking, history, economics or reality? I accept that you're fine with Red China releasing viruses...as long as it works out well for you politically. Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
Argus Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 Just now, bush_cheney2004 said: The same kind of system that leads to a PM Justin Trudeau. Not gonna disagree. Though I would say our education system is, on the whole, somewhat better. It's counter-balanced by all the foreigners in this country (20% and likely to double in the next twenty years) and natives on reserves who don't bother to get much education. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted January 20, 2021 Author Report Posted January 20, 2021 1 minute ago, DogOnPorch said: I accept that you're fine with Red China releasing viruses...as long as it works out well for you politically. I think you need to see a psychiatrist. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 Just now, Argus said: I think you need to see a psychiatrist. A Red Chinese psychiatrist? Is he gonna fill me with drugs to make me see things your way? Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
DogOnPorch Posted January 20, 2021 Report Posted January 20, 2021 Do any of you know what henipavirions pathogens are? No? Bat virus... We sent them to China. You're free to pretend we didn't... https://www.the-scientist.com/news-opinion/questions-surround-canadian-shipment-of-deadly-viruses-to-china-66254 1 Quote Nothing cracks a turtle like Leon Uris.
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