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China warns Canada not to be 'naive' in thinking allies can help fix issues (updated with Trudeau's reply)


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Just now, Army Guy said:

Thats right, you still feel the need to point fingers....so your saying all those greedy NA companies are conservative owned and operated..

No I said all the conservatives could do was shill for our companies while denigrating North American workers as being little more than lazy overpaid communists.

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22 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Manufacturing is a dying prospect at the strategic level, you are living through an Information Age Revolution epoch which is like the Industrial Age epoch, in fact the Information Age is a direct result of the Industrial Age, even the Chinese are transitioning from manufacturing to consumption in their internal market.

Labour is one of the least valuable commodities, information is now the most valuable commodity, there's no going back, it's adapt or perish, no sense whinging about it.

Information is not worth squat unless you got your electronics to receive / send that info....and to make all of that is where chinse cheap labor comes in....

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4 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

Information is not worth squat unless you got your electronics to receive / send that info....and to make all of that is where chinse cheap labor comes in....

The internet was designed to survive a thermonuclear war, so barring extinction event, the Information Age is quite secure, you are just at the beginning, this transition will be well over a century in the making, but even the near future will be radically different from the past you are trying to go back to.

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6 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

The internet was designed to survive a thermonuclear war, so barring extinction event, the Information Age is quite secure, you are just at the beginning, this transition will be well over a century in the making, but even the near future will be radically different from the past you are trying to go back to.

I'm not talking about the near future, i'm talking about the here and now, and why china has a advantage over Canada if it came to a trade war, they hold all the cards....they own the labor force, they own the factories, they own the workers....oh and if they want they own the product as well, how do we compete with that...You can't. Its not whinning it's the facts .

 

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1 minute ago, Army Guy said:

I'm not talking about the near future, i'm talking about the here and now, and why china has a advantage over Canada if it came to a trade war, they hold all the cards....they own the labor force, they own the factories, they own the workers....oh and if they want they own the product as well, how do we compete with that...You can't. Its not whinning it's the facts .

Obviously  Canada doesn't stand much of a chance in a trade war with a $12.5 trillion dollar GDP Hegemon which is also a ruthless proto-Stalinist dictatorship.

Only the Americans have the power to stand up to China, and the Americans will ultimately prevail by the Flight to Quality.

The entire Canadian economy is just an abritrage play on the American Flight to Quality, thus why thinking that Canada can join Beijing is delusional.

None the less, the delusional Canadian political class has dragged Canada into no man's land between, hence why I am divesting myself of Canada, no need to go down with the ship.

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2 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

Obviously  Canada doesn't stand much of a chance in a trade war with a $12.5 trillion dollar GDP Hegemon which is also a ruthless proto-Stalinist dictatorship.

Only the Americans have the power to stand up to China, and the Americans will ultimately prevail by the Flight to Quality.

The entire Canadian economy is just an abritrage play on the American Flight to Quality, thus why thinking that Canada can join Beijing is delusional.

None the less, the delusional Canadian political class has dragged Canada into no man's land between, hence why I am divesting myself of Canada, no need to go down with the ship.

Canada is the future.  The growth is here.  The US will remain powerful for a long time, but her societal costs are weighing her down.  New, more progressive models are needed, which is where countries like Canada come in.  Ultimately, China is a more oppressive society with a lower quality of life.  She also relies far too heavily on cheap labour, which means keeping people poor.  It’s time to present a unified front against this totalitarian regime.  Money talks and bullshit walks.  Hit their exports until they release the detainees and allow our soy, canola, pork and beef exports through.  Raise cricitism of the regime until one-party totalitarian government in China disappears.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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On 8/22/2019 at 7:43 PM, Army Guy said:

I agree with everything you say, but it will never happen we can talk tough but we are holding 4 douces….and they got 6 aces....

There's almost nothing we get from China we can't get elsewhere. Almost all of it consists of consumer goods, anyway, with little that is critical.
China could vaporize into a giant ash cloud tomorrow and we wouldn't care except that it would make TVs and toasters temporarily more expensive until they ramped up production in Mexico.

Edited by Argus
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On 8/22/2019 at 11:22 PM, Zeitgeist said:

Canada is the future. 

No, there is no future for Canada, it's just a matter of time until Quebec brings Canada down by seceding from it and ripping the heart out in the process.

That doesn't mean the economies here will disappear into a black hole, it will simply go from being Canada back to being The Canada's whence it came.

These Canada's are already alienated from each other east west while evermore integrated north south with the Americans.

It's not that the Americans are going to annex them so much as they will seek evermore access to the American market and make evermore concessions therein.

The Americans don't want to run the Canada's, they will remain autonomous, but they will cease to be the 19th century military alliance against America that they were roped into being by London in 1867 in what in fact was a shotgun marriage.

Instead they will have relationships to one another much as Australia and New Zealand and Papua New Guinea have to one another, independent Dominions, except for Quebec which will be a republic.

As the Canada's have already dismantled their own military for all intents and purposes and fully integrated with NORTHCOM to become de facto military protectorates of the United States, that will devolve to its logical conclusion wherein they simply maintain lightly armed constabularies, like the Falkland Islands Defence Force, local militias under American command and control at Petersen AFB Colorado.

If any of the people here want to serve in an actual military, they will enlist in the US military, just as 33,000 Canadians enlisted to serve in Vietnam, including my uncle out in BC actually.

Perhaps in a more distant future the Americans might open up the books and accept these Dominions as states, but that will take many decades, mostly because the Americans won't want them to be states in the Union.

The Confederation will devolve into a much looser federation, similar to Scandinavia, once all ruled by the Swedish Crown, now four independent states which trade and interact with each other within larger international structures, three of them still monarchies, one of them a republic, Ontario like Sweden, Alberta like Norway, BC like  Denmark,  and Quebec like Finland, etcetera.   

Quebec like Finland will be the most independent and like Finland probably the most militarized as a result, with its own military chain of command separate from the Americans and more closely tied to France instead.

The fully Americanized Canadians of the future will look back on this  Confederation to keep the Americans out, the French in,  and the Indians down, the same way they look back on the rest of the British Empire now, quaint, archaic, but ultimately an Imperialist racist apartheid state not worthy of defending and upholding in a vastly more liberalized world.

This process is already in full swing, for example tearing down the icon of Sir John A. MacDonald because Canadians now see him as he actually was, a racist white supremacist imperialist, that is the Ameicanization of Canada rapidly accelerating now.

You asserting that the Queen is not Queen anymore but rather the ceremonial Viceroy whom the PM hires and fires,  is the "actual constitutional monarch", that's you accelerating the process as well, you're bringing down your own Confederation in the name of Americanization.

I, as the Old Stock Canadian Loyalist, am Canada, but that's why you call me "traitor" for being loyal to the British Crown in North America, because you are no longer loyal to your own Crown but are rather fully and completely Americanized already, and in fairness, you represent the majority, I am the dinosaur, you are the future, but that future is not British North America and so not Canada anymore.

The future is America, but you and the majority of de facto republicans here now;  are the ones making that happen.

Edited by Dougie93
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3 hours ago, Dougie93 said:

No, there is no future for Canada, it's just a matter of time until Quebec brings Canada down by seceding from it and ripping the heart out in the process.

That doesn't mean the economies here will disappear into a black hole, it will simply go from being Canada back to being The Canada's whence it came.

These Canada's are already alienated from each other east west while evermore integrated north south with the Americans.

It's not that the Americans are going to annex them so much as they will seek evermore access to the American market and make evermore concessions therein.

The Americans don't want to run the Canada's, they will remain autonomous, but they will cease to be the 19th century military alliance against America that they were roped into being by London in 1867 in what in fact was a shotgun marriage.

Instead they will have relationships to one another much as Australia and New Zealand and Papua New Guinea have to one another, independent Dominions, except for Quebec which will be a republic.

As the Canada's have already dismantled their own military for all intents and purposes and fully integrated with NORTHCOM to become de facto military protectorates of the United States, that will devolve to its logical conclusion wherein they simply maintain lightly armed constabularies, like the Falkland Islands Defence Force, local militias under American command and control at Petersen AFB Colorado.

If any of the people here want to serve in an actual military, they will enlist in the US military, just as 33,000 Canadians enlisted to serve in Vietnam, including my uncle out in BC actually.

Perhaps in a more distant future the Americans might open up the books and accept these Dominions as states, but that will take many decades, mostly because the Americans won't want them to be states in the Union.

The Confederation will devolve into a much looser federation, similar to Scandinavia, once all ruled by the Swedish Crown, now four independent states which trade and interact with each other within larger international structures, three of them still monarchies, one of them a republic, Ontario like Sweden, Alberta like Norway, BC like  Denmark,  and Quebec like Finland, etcetera.   

Quebec like Finland will be the most independent and like Finland probably the most militarized as a result, with its own military chain of command separate from the Americans and more closely tied to France instead.

The fully Americanized Canadians of the future will look back on this  Confederation to keep the Americans out, the French in,  and the Indians down, the same way they look back on the rest of the British Empire now, quaint, archaic, but ultimately an Imperialist racist apartheid state not worthy of defending and upholding in a vastly more liberalized world.

This process is already in full swing, for example tearing down the icon of Sir John A. MacDonald because Canadians now see him as he actually was, a racist white supremacist imperialist, that is the Ameicanization of Canada rapidly accelerating now.

You asserting that the Queen is not Queen anymore but rather the ceremonial Viceroy whom the PM hires and fires,  is the "actual constitutional monarch", that's you accelerating the process as well, you're bringing down your own Confederation in the name of Americanization.

I, as the Old Stock Canadian Loyalist, am Canada, but that's why you call me "traitor" for being loyal to the British Crown in North America, because you are no longer loyal to your own Crown but are rather fully and completely Americanized already, and in fairness, you represent the majority, I am the dinosaur, you are the future, but that future is not British North America and so not Canada anymore.

The future is America, but you and the majority of de facto republicans here now;  are the ones making that happen.

That’s all bullshit.  Canadians aren’t stupid.  They know enough about the histories both north and south to render fair judgment.  They know about Manifest Destiny and what happened to Tecumseh, how the Indians were defeated and given their terms in the US.  Quebecers know what place the French language would have in North America without bilingualism, federal cultural support, and with an indifferent US Melting Pot.  Remote communities know that without federal support for infrastructure, including rail, police, postal service, a court system, and much more, they would be thrown to the wolves.  Canadians across the country understand well the differences between Canadian and American society in attitudes towards minority cultures.  They know the histories of racism in both countries.  

It’s written into the US Constitution that Canada is welcome to join the US.  Most Canadians support the free movement of goods, services, and people who are citizens of either country, between the two countries.  We hear every day of the violence south of the border and the haughty sabre rattling of the President, whose decisions can and do have serious impact on Americans and foreigners.   Canadians respect and like Americans.  Canadians, however, set the terms for their own country and don’t wish to become the vassal state that you propose as though it’s a good thing.  F@ck that.  

I can tell you that much more has been said about my stance with greater fervour by others.  I would say that Canadians are learning to be more wary of the US, which is currently capricious to the point of recklessness in her senior leadership.  We do need to protect our society, especially from firearms south of the border and certain expansionist and xenophobic attitudes.  That’s hardly an endorsement for joining the US, especially if, as you claim to think would be the case, it is as some kind of Puerto Rico with less power than a state.  What ridiculousness.

These attitudes shift depending on political conditions on both sides of the border, but I’d say that’s the current prevailing attitude right now.  Relations could be better, but if you think Canadians would simply give up the country that they have, you’re dreaming.  For what?  And you’re a former Canadian soldier?  Please.  

Regarding Trudeau’s naivety, he is naive, but he doesn’t represent all Canadian political figures.  I didn’t vote for him, but I will say that he tried to reach out to Xi and Trump.  He has tried to act on good faith on foreign relations.  He has been sideswiped by Trump, who seems to alienate everyone.  Xi is disappointed that Canada held onto Meng for extradition proceedings because he thinks we’re working for the Americans when we’re just honouring our extradition treaty.  China’s reaction, detaining Canadians without just cause, doesn’t reflect well on China, nor does its ban on certain Canadian agricultural products.  In many ways the seeds of distrust were sown by Trump, who initiated trade wars and reneged on the diplomatic deal with Iran.  Most Canadians see all of this and know that both JT and Canada are experiencing the results of these trade and foreign policies.  

Trump keeps saying Americans should trust him as he doubles down on China in the trade war, and that Canada should follow suit.  I think most Canadians and many Americans rightly question the judgement of this.  Where is it going?  The US economy has been primed through borrowing and tax cuts.  For now many are looking the other way because the economy seems okay.  It’s risky and we should worry about the long term consequences.  

The Canadian federal government needs to keep its own council, seek new trade partnerships and greater independence on the security front, because while China is a threat to freedom and economic security in the west, it’s very arguable that so is the current US leadership.  

I know what Trump is trying to do and I admire his guts, but he is risking a lot.  If China became a true democracy as a result and trade imbalances could be cured through a tariff war, I’d support it, but the war could cause a worldwide recession.  Trump should be speaking up for Hong Kong, but he isn’t exactly the paragon of democracy.  He congratulated Xi on becoming President for life.  Trump comes across as a wannabe dictator.  He has sown mistrust and lacks credibility.  

Edited by Zeitgeist
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8 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

 Canadians aren’t stupid. 

Some apparently are, as they are abandoning the British Crown in North America in favour of becoming Americans by default, even though they assert that they fear and loathe America.

It's ironic that the people's republic of Toronto screeches hysterically in the face of America, when Toronto is the most Americanized place in all of Confederation.

Toronto was never French, and it's not British anymore, Torontonians are Americans already,  they're just mostly  Democrats rather than Republicans.

Thus why Old Stock Canadians tend to despise Americanized Toronto with a passion.

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5 minutes ago, Dougie93 said:

Some apparently are, as they are abandoning the British Crown in North America in favour of becoming Americans by default, even though they assert that they fear and loathe America.

It's ironic that the people's republic of Toronto screeches hysterically in the face of America, when Toronto is the most Americanized place in all of Confederation.

I thought you said Ontarians are simply Americans who remained loyal to the Crown.  Toronto is a great city and has most attributes of a great American city, but there are some differences, which is fine.  Don’t forget that Loyalist Upper Canada came into existence before Confederation.  Ontario is in Confederation now.  I know you hate that but most Ontarians like it.  

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30 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

I thought you said Ontarians are simply Americans who remained loyal to the Crown.  Toronto is a great city and has most attributes of a great American city, but there are some differences, which is fine.  

I am Americanized too, I am simply bound by a blood oath to the British Crown in North America unto death as necessary, and even the American in me cannot forsake it, because it is the nature of Americans to hold to the oaths which they undertook solemnly of their own free will, particularly for war, particularly for war in the name of freedom.

Americans did not overthrow the British Crown gladly, the British Crown backed Americans into a corner and left them no choice.

If the British Crown in North America falls, I am rendered an American republican by default, but until it does, my oath stands, though that oath was only to the Crown not Canadian Confederation nor Toronto.

It's not unprecedented for Americans to serve the British Crown in time of war, in the First and Second World Wars many Americans serves the Crown of Canada prior to America entering those wars, so it is in fact a grand American tradition.

Moreover, in the war in which I served, the Cold War, I ultimately reported up the  chain of command to the American Supreme Allied Commander in Europe in any case, and Canada remains in NATO,  NORAD, CDSA and UKUSSA now,  which are also under the American chain of command and National Command Authority therein.

The "war" between Canada and America exists only in the minds of knee jerk Anti-American Canadians, in actual fact tho, Canada has placed itself at the disposal of the American chain of command by the agreements Canada is signatory to, thus in terms of real word instead of fantasy, my American half and my Canadian half are not actually in conflict.

Me; Canadian soldier, them; American soldiers, we are brothers in arms.

You; in downtown Toronto, we don't know who you report to, but we know that you are not in our chain of command.

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38 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Nobody ‘is’ Canada just because their families have around here for a short while. 

I make no claim on "Canada",  I free hold 12,500 square feet of property, which the legal title holder of is actually Elizabeth Windsor.  I never take full ownership of this property, legally, all of Canada is owned by the Queen, all we do is free hold.

Canada itself is not a nation, it's just an agreement, Quebec is the only nation, the rest are British, British is not a nation, British is simply a system of governance; Westminster Parliamentary Supremacy since the founding of the modern liberal state in the Glorious Revolution of 1688.

Ideologically I am an American, ethnically I am Anglo Saxon and Scots-Irish, politically I remain within Westminster.

Canada the agreement is signatory to other agreements, which render it subject to others, namely the Americans, who prop Canada up and defend it, to avoid having a Mexico on their northern border as well south.

People who demand some sort of totalitarian fealty to Confederation are being silly,  Canada itself doesn't even demand that, all I have to do is pay my taxes and obey the law, done and done, by obligations to Canada end there, I didn't make it that way, Canada made it that way, otherwise articulated as the Post National State.

In the face of the Post National State, I can fall back to fealty to whatever I please, my ethnic fealty to my Anglo Saxon Scot Irish ancestors come here in 1757, my institutional fealty to British North America predating Canada, and my ideological fealty to the constitution of the United States of America, which is what I choose.

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12 minutes ago, SpankyMcFarland said:

Do you talk like this when you're out of the house? 

With Americans I certainly do, Canadians don't really participate in conversations at this level of ideological principle, it's more of an American thing

Canadians don't really know the central narrative of their own history, Canadian public education and media submerges it in an ocean of social history tidbits which don't amount to any sort of central narrative for them to follow, so Canadians are for the most part oblivious to why they are here and what for.

This is of course deliberate on the part of the Canadian state run media and education, because if Canadians knew their own central narrative, they would see that Canada now is off the rails and going down the rabbit hole of totalitarian adherence to a Liberal Party of Canada de facto one party state Potemkin Village.

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On 8/24/2019 at 11:58 AM, Argus said:

There's almost nothing we get from China we can't get elsewhere. Almost all of it consists of consumer goods, anyway, with little that is critical.
China could vaporize into a giant ash cloud tomorrow and we wouldn't care except that it would make TVs and toasters temporarily more expensive until they ramped up production in Mexico.

That doesn't apply just to China these days and the Chinese are narrowing the technology gap with the West all the time. The new Huawei phones aren't excellent just because of espionage. The Chinese can see what's coming and are diversifying their customer base. Trade within Asia is increasing rapidly and so is Eurasian trade. The US can influence this process but it can't control it. 

Edited by SpankyMcFarland
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The Americans don't need to control anything, there is no Flight to Quality towards China, the Flight to Quality is to the freedom, rule of law and property rights in America, the Chinese economy is just an abritrage play, sometimes referred to as Chimerica, but in the end, America is the key, the Chinese are simply dining out on the Americans hegenomy, the only Hegenomy the Chinese can acheive is by force,  which doesn't extend very far beyond their Anti-Access Area Denial capabilities close to their shores, and in a couple other places, like North Korea, Pakistan and Iran, all of which are self defeating basket cases in of themselves also propped up by King Dollar in the end.

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