Regulatory logjam has cost Canada $100 billion

[Argus]

And Bill 69 isn't even here yet. That will make it even more impossible to get resource projects through. This is a bill which was never even analyzed by any of parliament's economic or trade committees, only by environment. The Trudeau government has a fastidious disdain for resource projects, the sort of attitude of people who live in central Canadian cities and are divorced from reality due to being trust fund babies have.

A new report shows $100 billion in planned spending on resource projects in Canada has evaporated, and a further drop should be expected without substantial amendments to the Liberal government’s planned regulatory overhaul in Bill C-69.

As Senate hearings into the controversial bill continued Thursday, the C.D. Howe Institute released a report detailing how recent declines in planned energy, mining and forestry investment in Canada totalling $100 billion is equivalent to erasing 4.5 per cent from Canada’s gross domestic product.

Financial Post

[cannuck]

Yeah, but we can have Sunny Ways, more immigrants to support, terrorists to reward, keep criminal companies and the LPC backroom boys wallowing in billions of overcharge for federal projects, millionaire chiefs with casinos but no water and housing on reserves and all of the marijuana you want to smoke or swallow.   Yep, I can see what PET was saying:  when he is done with Canada, there will be nothing, "just society" left.

Edited February 22, 2019 by cannuck

[Queenmandy85]

What is the rush to extract our resources, most of which are non-renewable. When we run out of oil or copper, it is gone. Once other countries run out of oil, our remaining reserves will be worth a lot more. It makes no common sense to sell it at a low price when in the future, it will be worth a whole lot more. 

[AngusThermopyle]

Once other countries run out of oil, our remaining reserves will be worth a lot more.

It sure will. Then other countries will march right on in and take it.

[eyeball]

1 hour ago, AngusThermopyle said:

Once other countries run out of oil, our remaining reserves will be worth a lot more.

It sure will. Then other countries will march right on in and take it.

Well, we certainly know what direction they'll be coming from.  So why should I believe you'd do little more than shrug or even greet them?

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

What is the rush to extract our resources, most of which are non-renewable. When we run out of oil or copper, it is gone. Once other countries run out of oil, our remaining reserves will be worth a lot more. It makes no common sense to sell it at a low price when in the future, it will be worth a whole lot more. 

That's an interesting argument in that it runs completely contrary to what all the climate types say. In their opinion fossil fuels are an industry in decline, soon to be extinct since no one will want or need oil. Under that view perhaps we need to sell them as fast as possible. As copper - a lot of metals are recyclable, and there's no shortage of any of the common metals.

[Queenmandy85]

3 hours ago, Argus said:

That's an interesting argument in that it runs completely contrary to what all the climate types say. In their opinion fossil fuels are an industry in decline, soon to be extinct since no one will want or need oil. Under that view perhaps we need to sell them as fast as possible. As copper - a lot of metals are recyclable, and there's no shortage of any of the common metals.

There are a lot more uses for petroleum and coal than producing energy. We have ample resources in uranium and thorium for energy but the products from petroleum-chemicals are essential and there is no substitute for them.

 

[cannuck]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

There are a lot more uses for petroleum and coal than producing energy. We have ample resources in uranium and thorium for energy but the products from petroleum-chemicals are essential and there is no substitute for them.

 

You are right, but at this point in time, we sell a bit of crude oil to feed the infrastructure that is there.  What we do NOT do is add any value - that's where the big numbers in jobs and wealth creation hide.  What you do have to keep in mind, though: depending on whose numbers and how you interpret, the Athabasca Oil Sands is either a larger produceable reserve than the Persian Gulf or a larger reservoir than all of the rest of the world...combined.   We WILL run out of "cheap oil", but the heavy (and expensive to produce - i.e. LOTS more jobs in the production side) will last longer than anyone else.  And, you are correct to point out that it is used for a LOT of other things, but as I said, we need to add a lot more value before we export what we produce.

Right now, we built a huge energy industry, then just dropped it flat on its face without doing anything to either a) taper it off, or far better b) shift the work to adding value.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

You are right, but at this point in time, we sell a bit of crude oil to feed the infrastructure that is there.  What we do NOT do is add any value - that's where the big numbers in jobs and wealth creation hide.  What you do have to keep in mind, though: depending on whose numbers and how you interpret, the Athabasca Oil Sands is either a larger produceable reserve than the Persian Gulf or a larger reservoir than all of the rest of the world...combined.   We WILL run out of "cheap oil", but the heavy (and expensive to produce - i.e. LOTS more jobs in the production side) will last longer than anyone else.  And, you are correct to point out that it is used for a LOT of other things, but as I said, we need to add a lot more value before we export what we produce.

Right now, we built a huge energy industry, then just dropped it flat on its face without doing anything to either a) taper it off, or far better b) shift the work to adding value.

It simply makes sense to have the refineries near the consumers, not the producers.

A more important problem is that it takes 15 years to approval for a mine in this country. FIFTEEN YEARS. No wonder no one wants to invest here.

[QuebecOverCanada]

Canada.... Is BACK!! Said Trudeau 4 years ago when elected.

Or was it going backwards from then on?

[cannuck]

24 minutes ago, Argus said:

It simply makes sense to have the refineries near the consumers, not the producers.

A more important problem is that it takes 15 years to approval for a mine in this country. FIFTEEN YEARS. No wonder no one wants to invest here.

True for fuel.  But for Athabasca crude, we should REQUIRE that it  be upgraded - adds some value here, creates some jobs and makes it a LOT safer to transport.   It is the non-fuel uses we need to move further down the value added chain or right to the end before we export

[Argus]

1 hour ago, cannuck said:

True for fuel.  But for Athabasca crude, we should REQUIRE that it  be upgraded - adds some value here, creates some jobs and makes it a LOT safer to transport.   It is the non-fuel uses we need to move further down the value added chain or right to the end before we export

And how much do each of these processing plants and refineries cost? Many billions if I'm not wrong. Are we going to get into the business ourselves. Government run? Because the private sector entities who build such things already have enough of them elsewhere and seem to have little interest in putting out a lot of money for new ones.

Edited February 23, 2019 by Argus

[cannuck]

2 minutes ago, Argus said:

And how much do each of these processing plants and refineries cost? Many billions if I'm not wrong. Are we going to get into the business ourselves. Government run? Because the private sector entities who build such things already have enough of them elsewhere and seem to have little interest in putting out a lot of money for new ones.

If we just stop pissing business off instead of cowtowing to banksters (the kickbacks must be better on Bay Street) they will come.  Boasting how you are going to tax them to death to pay for more "refugee" terrorists to immigrate and sponge off of their taxes is hardly the kind of plan that makes businesses feel welcome.  Also, it is the swing from center-sometimes-a-bit right to holy-shit-Che Guavara-must-have-moved-here is hardly the kind of stability that any investment is looking for.

[Dougie93]

10 minutes ago, cannuck said:

If we just stop pissing business off instead of cowtowing to banksters (the kickbacks must be better on Bay Street) they will come.  Boasting how you are going to tax them to death to pay for more "refugee" terrorists to immigrate and sponge off of their taxes is hardly the kind of plan that makes businesses feel welcome.  Also, it is the swing from center-sometimes-a-bit right to holy-shit-Che Guavara-must-have-moved-here is hardly the kind of stability that any investment is looking for.

Whatever profits there are to be had in Canada, they can be taken in US dollars and converted to gold as necessary at Manhattan, it's not really a Canadian economy, it's more like the moribund bottom 7% of the US economy.

[Zeitgeist]

So the National Energy Board has approved TransMountain.  Just needs approval by cabinet.  Weeks away.  Canadian oil will be quickly and efficiently transported to the coast and onto Pacific rim countries.  Now if we can get Energy East and refineries...Getting there.  

[cannuck]

9 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

So the National Energy Board has approved TransMountain.  Just needs approval by cabinet.  Weeks away.  Canadian oil will be quickly and efficiently transported to the coast and onto Pacific rim countries.  Now if we can get Energy East and refineries...Getting there.  

Trans Mountain is a mini-pipeline, but it DOES go to tidewater so will probably concentrate on shipping dilbit to export markets of Asia.  Vancouver is not a very welcoming place for petroleum exports, though, so it would never by my first choice (Prince Rupert would).  We need Trump to deliver on the gap in TCPL's Keystone XL since the continental market is far more critical to Athabasca production.

Of course, I will always squawk for no dilbit, and upgrade to ship syncrude.

But, you are right.  It is a start.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

So the National Energy Board has approved TransMountain.  Just needs approval by cabinet.  Weeks away.  Canadian oil will be quickly and efficiently transported to the coast and onto Pacific rim countries.  Now if we can get Energy East and refineries...Getting there.  

They still need to clear the 'more meaningful consultation with natives' hurdle. Not to mention they need to hire someone to actually build the thing.

[Zeitgeist]

33 minutes ago, Argus said:

They still need to clear the 'more meaningful consultation with natives' hurdle. Not to mention they need to hire someone to actually build the thing.

My understanding is that the NEB hearings were the consultations.  That’s done now.  I think Canada should build it and collect the rent.  

[eyeball]

On 2/22/2019 at 3:25 PM, cannuck said:

What we do NOT do is add any value - that's where the big numbers in jobs and wealth creation hide.  

Probably because there are few profits to be realized from using the most expensive workers in the world to add value to your oil.

[taxme]

On 2/22/2019 at 6:54 AM, Queenmandy85 said:

What is the rush to extract our resources, most of which are non-renewable. When we run out of oil or copper, it is gone. Once other countries run out of oil, our remaining reserves will be worth a lot more. It makes no common sense to sell it at a low price when in the future, it will be worth a whole lot more. 

Why wait for that day to come and wait to see what we could get for our needed resources in the future. Chit, we may be all dead by then. Let's extract our resources now and create the thousands of jobs for Canadians that would help make Canada great and it's citizen's employed and making plenty of money. If the world needs our resources then extract them. All we need is a Trump like leader who will think of Canada and Canadians first and not the rest of the bloody world and bringing that world all over here by the hundreds of thousands every year. Why do you want to wait until tomorrow? Do it today. Works for me. 

 

[jacee]

On 2/21/2019 at 8:33 PM, Argus said:

And Bill 69 isn't even here yet. That will make it even more impossible to get resource projects through. This is a bill which was never even analyzed by any of parliament's economic or trade committees, only by environment. The Trudeau government has a fastidious disdain for resource projects, the sort of arttitude of people who live in central Canadian cities and are divorced from reality due to being trust fund babies have.

A new report shows $100 billion in planned spending on resource projects in Canada has evaporated, and a further drop should be expected without substantial amendments to the Liberal government’s planned regulatory overhaul in Bill C-69.

As Senate hearings into the controversial bill continued Thursday, the C.D. Howe Institute released a report detailing how recent declines in planned energy, mining and forestry investment in Canada totalling $100 billion is equivalent to erasing 4.5 per cent from Canada’s gross domestic product.

Financial Post

The world is changing. Governments won't be throwing good money away on obsolete fossil fuels.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/technology/clean-disruption-renewable-energy-canada-1.3470590

$100 billion saved? Awesome. $3000 for each of us ($12k for a family of 4)... which we'll spend upgrading to reewable energy and keep the economy humming.

No problem! 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by jacee

[Queenmandy85]

20 hours ago, taxme said:

Why wait for that day to come and wait to see what we could get for our needed resources in the future. Chit, we may be all dead by then. Let's extract our resources now and create the thousands of jobs for Canadians that would help make Canada great and it's citizen's employed and making plenty of money. If the world needs our resources then extract them. All we need is a Trump like leader who will think of Canada and Canadians first and not the rest of the bloody world and bringing that world all over here by the hundreds of thousands every year. Why do you want to wait until tomorrow? Do it today. Works for me. 

 

What are we going to leave future generations of Canadians. If our ancestors had the attitude that" we may be all dead by then," there would have been no industrial revolution. Our civilization is based on three pillars; Iron, coal and oil. Without those resources, we go back into the Middle Ages. You can recycle iron but not oil and coal. You need coal to turn iron into steel and oil to lubricate. Add to that, there are thousands of other products made from oil and coal. Every tonne of coal and barrel of oi; we sell now is taken from future Canadians.

[cannuck]

16 minutes ago, Queenmandy85 said:

What are we going to leave future generations of Canadians. If our ancestors had the attitude that" we may be all dead by then," there would have been no industrial revolution. Our civilization is based on three pillars; Iron, coal and oil. Without those resources, we go back into the Middle Ages. You can recycle iron but not oil and coal. You need coal to turn iron into steel and oil to lubricate. Add to that, there are thousands of other products made from oil and coal. Every tonne of coal and barrel of oi; we sell now is taken from future Canadians.

For the time being, it is important to realize that the Athabasca Oil Sands are far, far greater than any other deposit of hydrocarbons on Earth.  They are also very difficult and expensive to extract.   Reality is: we will not have a petroleum economy forever, but we WILL have one for decades or even centuries into the future.  The current model is based on extraction of existing natural deposits, and due to the nature of our bituminous/asphalitic heavies, we will be able to run flat out and not put a dent in our reserves before everyone else runs out.   What I expect is that we will be far more able to synthesize everything we need from atmospheric carbon and water as the real need to do so becomes unavoidable.  Hydrocarbons will be around forever, but extracted petroleum will not - so as Taxme has indicated, time to get what we can from what we have while it is still viable.

The real issue for sustainability is population, not resources.   We are breeding 7++ Bn people to live on a nice 1Bn planet, and nobody is doing diddly squat to fix that genuine #1 problem.

[AngusThermopyle]

On 2/22/2019 at 12:02 PM, eyeball said:

Well, we certainly know what direction they'll be coming from.  So why should I believe you'd do little more than shrug or even greet them?

Perhaps because I'm the guy who signed the blank cheque pledging my life to defend Canada. Oh...that's right, in your opinion that means nothing. I could ask what you'd do, but I already know the answer. You'd just flap your gums like you always do, then slither away.

[Argus]

15 hours ago, jacee said:

The world is changing. Governments won't be throwing good money away on obsolete fossil fuels.

Fossil fuel use will continue to dominate for decades, and wishful thinking isn't going to change that. As for that $100 billion you are delighted at 'saving' that was economic activity which would have generated jobs and taxes and did not occur. What you are cheering is poverty.

World Economic Forum

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited March 3, 2019 by Argus