The new Ontarian Islamic Party

[Guest]

9 hours ago, turningrite said:

Not all Muslims, of course, are Islamists. And there are certainly social conservatives among other religious communities, including many Christians. But any effort to limit freedom of expression, which is the oxygen of democracy, is clearly problematic. That's why I personally found the M-103 approach so disturbing. The Western ethos, which emerges out of a long and illustrious history dating back to the Reformation, and later the Enlightenment, accommodates and validates the criticism of religion. It's not a bug in the Western system, it's a feature. If we capitulate on this, we give up on the Western project.

I agree.  I honestly could not care less about Muslims who want to be Muslim without such a position having any effect on others.  Same with Christians, Jews, Buddhists, etc.  Any Muslim who thinks it's okay for me to be a gambling, drinking, adulterous, blaspheming atheist getting a good return on his RRSPs is okay with me.

Criticizing religion ought to be as legal and acceptable as breathing.  After all, what is more deserving of criticism?

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, Machjo said:

The point still stands that the Charter violates the Covenant.

Perhaps it does in one tiny aspect relating to the carve-out for Ontario's separate school system. But this isn't necessarily a permanent feature. Quebec and Newfoundland have both removed religion as an organizing principle for their school systems and Ontario can do the same if it so chooses. In that sense, the Charter isn't a straitjacket and neither is the separate schools exemption ideological. It's sometimes difficult to wind down generations of history. As we move toward greater secularism, hopefully support for maintaining a separate school system will wane.

[GostHacked]

23 hours ago, Argus said:

An Islamic party can't be divorced from Islam and the current, mainstream teachings of Islam. If you don't profess Islam that means you're an unbeliever. It is not coincidental that of the 57 Muslim majority states not one gives equal treatment to non-Muslims. An Islamic party will ultimately never represent your best interests unless you're a conservative Muslim.

The party cannot exist in government because of the notion of the separation between church (any church) and state.  That does not mean the party cannot exist, but they are not going to hold any power in parliament unless you get a large number voting for them. But the real problem would be politicians and current government bending to the will of Muslims to allow this kind of religious political party.  That would mean changing the rules of our government.

Hold on.... I am checking some items out and apparently there is no clear definition or notion of complete separation of church and state in Canada. That's troubling.

[DogOnPorch]

Indeed. And you'll be a minority in your own country...just like the Natives...vote all you like to rid yourself of Islam. It's here to stay...and it doesn't want to share power. Wants you dead or converted...

 

...and since Trudeau Sr's mission...continued by Jr...was to break the back of British culture (read anybody not Quebecois)...the eventual destruction of  English Canada at the hands of a 7th century death cult will be the final irony for 1759. 

Edited January 14, 2019 by DogOnPorch

[eyeball]

18 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

Indeed. And you'll be a minority in your own country...just like the Natives...vote all you like to rid yourself of Islam. It's here to stay...and it doesn't want to share power. Wants you dead or converted...

 

...and since Trudeau Sr's mission...continued by Jr...was to break the back of British culture (read anybody not Quebecois)...the eventual destruction of  English Canada at the hands of a 7th century death cult will be the final irony for 1759. 

When do you expect this will happen, 10 years from now, 100, 1000?

[Machjo]

5 hours ago, GostHacked said:

The party cannot exist in government because of the notion of the separation between church (any church) and state.  That does not mean the party cannot exist, but they are not going to hold any power in parliament unless you get a large number voting for them. But the real problem would be politicians and current government bending to the will of Muslims to allow this kind of religious political party.  That would mean changing the rules of our government.

Hold on.... I am checking some items out and apparently there is no clear definition or notion of complete separation of church and state in Canada. That's troubling.

The separation of Church and state in Canada is hogwash. The reigning monarch must profess the Anglican Faith and cannot be married to a Catholic and the Constitution itself entrenches the separate denominational school system and the government imposes Christian holidays onto the private sector. Even Quebec has a crucifix on the wall of its National Assembly.

Separation of Church and State you say? And what about the Christian Heritage Party? I say eliminate all official recognition of political parties and have them all run as independents like they do in Nunavut.

Edited January 14, 2019 by Machjo

[DogOnPorch]

29 minutes ago, eyeball said:

When do you expect this will happen, 10 years from now, 100, 1000?

 

Not my plan...consult the planers for dates.

This will be entirely up to folks other than myself. The wheels are already in motion.

[eyeball]

8 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

Not my plan...

Yes that's right, it's your prediction.  So...10, 100, 1000 years?  Of course you're the guy who tried to fly that Islamic/fentanyl/chem-trail conspiracy nonsense awhile back so never is probably more likely.

[taxme]

On 1/10/2019 at 10:53 AM, QuebecOverCanada said:

Hey, I just registered to this forum. I'm obviously a Quebecer and a francophone with that, but I respect Canadians a lot and my family voted No for the 1995 Referendum. 

How do Ontarians react to the news of the new Ontarian Islamic Party?

In Quebec, there was a big buzz about the news coming from your province, but I would like to know your opinion on that matter. Are Ontarians really that pro multiculturalism or is it a myth?

It certainly looks like the liberals are allowing way too many Muslims into Canada if they want to now form a political Islamic party. I wonder how many Muslims are immigrating to Canada these days anyway? It looks like it could be quite a high number? I am very curious to know the numbers but I doubt that the immigration department would be willing to give me those true numbers to me. They probably know that it might upset me if they did. 

The only ones that appear to be oh so pro multicultural is our politicians and the leftist liberal media and the many pro immigration multicultural lobby groups. I am one Canadian that is very anti-multiculturalism and have no problem saying so. The myth going around that multiculturalism is supposed to be great for Canada is just that a myth and a lie. I personally think it is a disaster waiting to happen. But hey. 

[taxme]

On 1/14/2019 at 9:52 AM, eyeball said:

When do you expect this will happen, 10 years from now, 100, 1000?

George Soros may be able to answer your question. After all he is one of the main architects behind the flood of non-western immigrants into western countries. The hate mongering guy truly does despise the west and wants it destroyed. Believe it of not.

[betsy]

On 1/10/2019 at 4:01 PM, QuebecOverCanada said:

But is it the feeling of the general Ontarian population or did it just slip by and no one noticed?

Because in Québec we have 2 major stories from 'Le Journal de Montréal' which is the most read newspaper in Québec, shared 13K and 15k each on Facebook. It really is frightening in Québec, but not in Montréal. In Montréal, it seems that many francophones don't care/shrug off or called Martineau who wrote the stories a racist, a neo-nazi, a fascist. When François Legault was elected, there were hundreds of demonstrators to protest him in Montréal for the fact that he was supposedly a racist according to them... He's clearly not, he never said anything outrageous or provocative at any time. Legault wants to make it impossible to wear religious symbols and to be in a position of authority when working for the government. It would make it impossible for a religious extremist zealot to wear a veil and teach children at school for example. But they think that because we are fighting something called religious oppression which Québec suffered from for dozens of decades with the Catholic Church that we are racists. No, if you are black and you're not a religious extremist in Québec everyone will just welcome you as if you were white. But if you were white and a religious extremist, you would be called out. But since islam is almost considered as a 'religion of colour', it makes it impossible to criticize it or else the debate will revolve with the one criticizing islam to wether he's racist or not which is never the point to begin with.

Give it some time, and I seriously think - what with an apathetic attitude, politically-correct climate -  if the mindset of Ontarians don't change (and we keep  dumping refugees in Ontario) - Islamic Party will become a major party in Ontario.

Edited January 19, 2019 by betsy

[Kerfuffle]

On 1/16/2019 at 8:29 PM, taxme said:

It certainly looks like the liberals are allowing way too many Muslims into Canada if they want to now form a political Islamic party. I wonder how many Muslims are immigrating to Canada these days anyway? It looks like it could be quite a high number? I am very curious to know the numbers but I doubt that the immigration department would be willing to give me those true numbers to me. They probably know that it might upset me if they did. 

The only ones that appear to be oh so pro multicultural is our politicians and the leftist liberal media and the many pro immigration multicultural lobby groups. I am one Canadian that is very anti-multiculturalism and have no problem saying so. The myth going around that multiculturalism is supposed to be great for Canada is just that a myth and a lie. I personally think it is a disaster waiting to happen. But hey. 

Ban all religions and make it illegal to regularly perform the activities associated with that religion, such as attending religious services, reading scripture, participating in rituals, or following the religious's rules about clothing, eating, or prayer.

That would stop immigration of most of the undesirables,and stop the dumbing down of societies .Religion divides humanity and poses the greatest threat to our progress.

History speaks for itself.

[cannuck]

I think an Ontario Islamist Party would be a great thing.  It would give the West a great excuse to separate.

[Rue]

On ‎1‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 2:45 PM, Boges said:

What's Good for the Goose. There's a Christian Heritage Party in Canada. 

Just so you know I am starting a Jewish Party of Ontario  and here is some of the platform I am working on:

1-all our politicians must be funny or dentists or both

2-we always offer lox and bagels at our meetings

3-we believe people should be able to use their left signal light to turn right on Bathurst Street in Toronto

4-people really  should wash their hands more often you could get germs you know

5-speaking of which chickens need to be subsidized so everyone can make soup

6-we will control all banks, movie production, journalism, the air-waves, Canada, the US and the world..no wait we already did that..never mind...

7--special financial assistance will be given to set up more Chinese restaurants offering 5 pm dinner deals

9-more cultural exchanges with Miami, Florida will be allowed

10- all sessions of Parliament will start with the opening.." So how are you....."

Gentiles can be in our party but they must be clipped and ready to go.

[taxme]

4 hours ago, Rue said:

Just so you know I am starting a Jewish Party of Ontario  and here is some of the platform I am working on:

1-all our politicians must be funny or dentists or both

2-we always offer lox and bagels at our meetings

3-we believe people should be able to use their left signal light to turn right on Bathurst Street in Toronto

4-people really  should wash their hands more often you could get germs you know

5-speaking of which chickens need to be subsidized so everyone can make soup

6-we will control all banks, movie production, journalism, the air-waves, Canada, the US and the world..no wait we already did that..never mind...

7--special financial assistance will be given to set up more Chinese restaurants offering 5 pm dinner deals

9-more cultural exchanges with Miami, Florida will be allowed

10- all sessions of Parliament will start with the opening.." So how are you....."

Gentiles can be in our party but they must be clipped and ready to go.

6. You got that right. Finally you have admitted it. Something the media and politicians will never expose for fear of retribution by the ones who appear to run Canada. Right?   

[QuebecOverCanada]

That's exactly what I feared.

The Islamists are going to present themselves as moderate-light Islamists comparable to the ones who took power in Turkey earlier in the 2ks and now dominate everything in a dictatorship. ¸

Let me explain their plan, which is pretty simple; They want to steal the votes from muslims who traditionally vote pro-Business/pro-family parties such as the PCP (progressive-conservative party) of Ontario, and make it so they look like Christian Conservatives -people who don't bomb buses and don't beat their wives usually- to subvert to their real intentions.

This Party is very well organized, it is obviously funded, it has a website already and a platform. Here on their website they're stating that they are endorsing the PCP's stance about the Resolution R4. It is a very well calculated move. They can't push for too much religious bs or else even the left wingers are going to denounce them, so they just come out as soft and having light stances. Islamists do that everywhere. It happened in Turkey, they're doing the same right now as we're speaking in Tunisia too.

https://www.islamicontario.ca/We-Endorse-PCP-Resolution-R4_333.html

DO NOT underestimate this party. It obviously has many brillant people in it who are, let me remind you, fighting a holy war in their head. They won't stop. They will push, push, push. 

Ontarians, be worried.

[Dogbite]

One must be aware that Islam is not only religious but also a form of totalitarian government.  Essentially, were the "Islamic Party of Canada" able to win an election, then all the laws and tenets of Islam would be forced upon the citizens of Canada.  There is a very large ideology differential between Islam and the Christian Party of Canada. 

[Rue]

Bottom line is there is no separation between state and religion with this party as Dogbite said. I would however state the Christian Heritage Party of Canada which interestingly knows enough not to call itself simply the Christian Party of Canada because it realizes it does not speak for ALL Christians, although like the Islamic party it does want to impose its version of religious morality through the laws. That is why it was  started. It has very strong views interestingly no different than the Islamic party on sex education, abortion, homosexuality, marriage. 

That said it we have ethincsrunning for office appealing for other ethnics to vote for them. Mr. Jagmit Singh who lives two doors down from me in Mississauga runs in Burnaby in the largest Seikh riding he could find to assure he gets elected and his NDP party gets upset because a competing candidate referred to herself as Chinese (which is common in the mandarin language as a way of saying you represent Chinese cultural values..its not meant as a religious term but similar to saying you are a good Christian).

Trudeau panders deliberately for ethnic votes. All parties run token ethnics in ridings where the majority ethnics in the riding are the same as the candidate.Trudeau and many politicians use multi-culturalism to be able to be a reverse racist and appeal to same ethnic members to vote for them,Is that democracy? Yes. If the majority of ethnics in your riding are the same ethnicity and they voted for you because you are the same ethnicity that is allowed. There is no way to stop it unless you do away with democracy.

Let's spit it out and avoid the political correctness. Of course certain Muslims given their interpretation of the Koran believe there is no separation between state and religion and see the state as an agent of promulgating  Islam in all forms of life.  Thus  they create their Islamic party that appeals to that version of Islam and yes in  if they were elected, make no mistake,  non Muslims would be reduced as they are in many Muslim nations today to dhimmi or second class citizens with inferior legal rights. This is what sharia law does in the hands of such people .

This is why Jews left such countries and started their own country. In both Christian and Muslim countries the religions of those countries were connected to the state and did not allow them equality-so they liberated themselves. They created a Jewish state to protect Jews around the world and give them a haven to escape such behaviour but at the same time allowed non Jews the same legal rights as Jews unlike vice versa in the other states. For the most part Christianity and  state governments have detached. Not the case with Islamic sharia law states.

So s it any surprise Islamic tribalism exists in  Canada?  Did anyone but Eye or Omni think, presto kabango it would disappear the moment Lord Justin did a photo op at a mosque with fundamentalist extremist Muslims to pander to the Muslim vote?

Trudeau has to decide. He can embrace multi-culturalism and pander for Muslim votes, but  then he needs to have the integrity to denounce Islamic fundamentalism that is sexist and against gays and he won't of course do that any more than he will admit Muslim extremist views fuel terrorism. In his Liberal mind, if a Muslim extremist is a terrorist because of those Muslim extremist views, he won't say so for fear of losing Muslim votes and instead will engage in bull shit platitudes like terrorists have unemployment as their root cause. Trudeau lives in a fantasy world where he marches in every gay pride he can find but also shows up to pander for votes from extremist fundamentalist Muslims at Mosques where they preach intolerance of gays.

Multi-culturalism is something we embrace in Canada. Its down side  is if it becomes too  extreme it promotes tribalism and if you question that tribalism you are accused of bigotry,

On the other hand the other side of that extremism is Trumpism or American Chauvenism which is just a smidgen away from racism and white supremacist neo Nazis trying to justify their bigotry of everyone through scapegoating of a common ethnic group to hate to unify the masses. If you listen carefully to Trump, he needs an ethnic group (or other scapegoat) to piss on to unify his voters. He can't go a day without a scapegoat to generate hatred for his minions to unify around.

Trump is failing miserably so of course he creates diversion tactics from his failed record by creating  scapegoats such as the Latino hoards about to rape his country and make everyone drug addicts.

We  go today from one extremism to the other, from a Trudeau fantasy world where he wants a photo op with any or all ethnic groups to get elected and will pander to them and make it appear accommodation in Canada has no limits  and there is no need to assimilate to certain Canadian values to build a unified country to  the other extreme of Trump who creates an Aryan race no different than Hitler he calls "America first" a fabricated American person he claims to protect right out of the Goebels Hitlerian propaganda manual. We need to balance tolerance of different beliefs with the need to assimilate an give up certain beliefs when they clash with the greater good. Its a balancing act of course.

That said, I would argue  the best way to deal with any religious party is to debate them in public. If people claim its anti Muslim to question such parties such people need to be challenged openly as well.  The cynic in me says political correctness is preventing genuine dialogue in all communities.

I say debate it and I reject the Islamic Party no differently than I  do the views of Taxme. They promote the belief that one group of people are better than another.

Superiority complexes are a pain in the ass.

Edited January 23, 2019 by Rue

[Rue]

15 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

That's exactly what I feared.

The Islamists are going to present themselves as moderate-light Islamists comparable to the ones who took power in Turkey earlier in the 2ks and now dominate everything in a dictatorship. ¸

Let me explain their plan, which is pretty simple; They want to steal the votes from muslims who traditionally vote pro-Business/pro-family parties such as the PCP (progressive-conservative party) of Ontario, and make it so they look like Christian Conservatives -people who don't bomb buses and don't beat their wives usually- to subvert to their real intentions.

This Party is very well organized, it is obviously funded, it has a website already and a platform. Here on their website they're stating that they are endorsing the PCP's stance about the Resolution R4. It is a very well calculated move. They can't push for too much religious bs or else even the left wingers are going to denounce them, so they just come out as soft and having light stances. Islamists do that everywhere. It happened in Turkey, they're doing the same right now as we're speaking in Tunisia too.

https://www.islamicontario.ca/We-Endorse-PCP-Resolution-R4_333.html

DO NOT underestimate this party. It obviously has many brillant people in it who are, let me remind you, fighting a holy war in their head. They won't stop. They will push, push, push. 

Ontarians, be worried.

Sorry but I think appealing to people to fear is illogical. remain in the past with certain views that does not frighten me. I have to have the confidence and strength to find others lie me to counter the negative.

This devil you present, (Islamic Party) will  grow stronger if you fear it. Think about it. It can't flourish. it can not grow in strength and popularity unless you and others like you  react in a manner that fuels its message.

Go speak to MUSLIMS, Muslims  who came to Canada to get away from this kind of extremism. You need to undnerstand many MUSLIMS came to Canada to get away from this kind of shit,  and that this party's representation of Islam is only that. Its a particular group's belief of Islam. It doesn't mean its the only belief of Muslims in Canada.

This I promise you, fear who you think is your enemy, that enemy will only feed on that fear and get stronger.

I saw this with my own eyes. I saw one woman, one mother, take on an entire unit of Palestinian terrorists trying to take her child away. That woman made a choice. Her son became a doctor. I know him. He does not hate. He heals. His patients whether Israeli or Palestinian have the same colour of blood.

I wish I had an iota of the balls that mother had.

 

Edited January 23, 2019 by Rue

[QuebecOverCanada]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

Go speak to MUSLIMS, Muslims  who came to Canada to get away from this kind of extremism. You need to undnerstand many MUSLIMS came to Canada to get away from this kind of shit,  and that this party's representation of Islam is only that. Its a particular group's belief of Islam. It doesn't mean its the only belief of Muslims in Canada.

Sir, I do. I do every day since about 2015, when I went to an University where there were lots and lots of Muslims, and Jews, and Asians, etc. I even have friends from Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria who are Muslims, and also Canadians who I work with and am friends with that are Muslims.

The belief system of a Muslim doesn't change. It is immutable, since it is a totalitarian religious doctrine written so it is the last word of God.

A Sunni Muslim from 1000AD has the same core beliefs than the Sunni Muslim of 2019. The Sunni Muslim also practices the same way and his doctrine hasn't changed, since Islam has no clergy so to speak as there is in Christianity. A Christian from 1000 AD may have nothing to do with the Christian in 2019 with all the Reforms and ways the Institutions changed.

The only difference between a backward radical Muslim and a well adapted, good citizen who happens to be a Muslim, is the degree to which the practitioner believes literally what is written word by word in the Quran.

[Rue]

26 minutes ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

Sir, I do. I do every day since about 2015, when I went to an University where there were lots and lots of Muslims, and Jews, and Asians, etc. I even have friends from Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Morocco, Algeria who are Muslims, and also Canadians who I work with and am friends with that are Muslims.

The belief system of a Muslim doesn't change. It is immutable, since it is a totalitarian religious doctrine written so it is the last word of God.

A Sunni Muslim from 1000AD has the same core beliefs than the Sunni Muslim of 2019. The Sunni Muslim also practices the same way and his doctrine hasn't changed, since Islam has no clergy so to speak as there is in Christianity. A Christian from 1000 AD may have nothing to do with the Christian in 2019 with all the Reforms and ways the Institutions changed.

The only difference between a backward radical Muslim and a well adapted, good citizen who happens to be a Muslim, is the degree to which the practitioner believes literally what is written word by word in the Quran.

SIR..sorry when one writes responses they can sound more severe then they are...if you detected a tone of prissy righteousness in my last response to you please you can call me fat head.

Next, with due respect you seem to have come to a conclusion about all Muslims. I noted you stated, "The belief system of a Muslim doesn't change." Had you stated, "certain" not "all" Muslims I would get what you say. For me however your assumption so broad-based as to become illogical. You can't possibly know all the beliefs of all Muslims. Furthermore if I stated the same and replaced the word Muslim with "Jew", "Christian",  using your analogy what would be the difference?  I know of many of my own people (the Hebrews) and Christians who I would argue read their Bible literally as do some Muslims with their Koran. I would challenge them all equally if they began to suggest the government be used to impose their version of morality on others. I am not sure but your label on Muslims makes it sound every last one of them is as another writer said an "Islamist", someone who wants to use the state organ to promulgate Islam. I do not think that is true. I also think there is a very wide range of interpretations of the Koran by Muslims and you should not assume no matter what the degree of focus they use, they all believe in using state as agent to impose their version of Islam on you.  I think when you and I or anyone uses the reference" I work with and am friends with...." to justify your assumptions about ALL Muslims you illustrate you are engaging in generalization based on subjective perception and assumption which is not rational.

Not all Muslims are Islamists. Not all Christians want to use their state to impose their religious views on non Christians. Hell in Israel most Israels are not religious at all and do not define their Jewish identity as a religious belief but a collective identity based on political suffrage. This is why they reject Jewish religious parties in Israel trying to define what a Jew is by narrow religious terms.

Hell I am a damn Zionist and I don't define myself as a "Jew" because of my beliefs in the Old Testament. To me it is a collective identity that came from being stereotyped as an inferior human and having to liberate from that. Its like when gays talk about their identity. They formed a collective identity to deal with non gays who do not understand or hate them but they aint all having sex the exact same way not that I know but Justin told me that.

So seriously, its like me saying all Quebecers are separatists its just the degree of separation they want.

You might want to dial down about and take some Xanax when you see some guy with a beard and no mustache.

Listen I haven't seen any in a long time but I always was afraid of Hare Krishnas. They would smell of wierd incense and smile like they just ate a baby. They scared me. That smile was spooky man. Its like a mix of bad gas, cannibalism, insanity and magic mushroom or laughing gas.

Relax man. You sound a tad paranoid. There are plenty of nut cases out there without you pissing your pants over fundamentalists.

If they get violent or terrorist then they will be dealt with but until then, a democracy is about understanding you can't always agree with others nor do you have to or be afraid of them.

I get it. Muslim extremists are dangerous but to use that to say ALL Muslims are to a degree extremist I won't condone. Its not logical to assume that nor is it true. It also alienates the very  Muslims who came to this country to get away from that kind of extremist belief process.

Shit I get your comment. They have said that about Jews, Christians, Seikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, name the religion, name the race, ethnicity, nose shape. We have to do better then that kind of hysterical fear mongering.

Now if you want to use that stereotype on Trudeau supporters, lol, go ahead. Do that. It will make me smile like a Hare Krishna.

[turningrite]

40 minutes ago, Rue said:

Not all Muslims are Islamists. Not all Christians want to use their state to impose their religious views on non Christians. Hell in Israel most Israels are not religious at all and do not

Relax man. You sound a tad paranoid. There are plenty of nut cases out there without you pissing your pants over fundamentalists.

Shit I get your comment. They have said that about Jews, Christians, Seikhs, Hindus, Buddhists, name the religion, name the race, ethnicity, nose shape. We have to do better then that kind of hysterical fear mongering.

 

I edited your long post in order to distill the message you appear to be trying to make. The difference between Islam in general and the West, of course, is that we in the West experienced the Reformation and the Enlightenment. These two movements dramatically reshaped the relationship between Western populations and religion. Although the process was often slow and uneven, it became possible in the West to criticize religious power and orthodoxy and the principle of the separation of church and state became established. There has been no similar evolution in Islam, particularly if one is to cite the Cairo Declaration on Human Rights in Islam (1990) as broadly indicative of the gulf between Islamic and Western social and political thought. Radical fundamentalism, of course, is clearly a challenge to the Western ideals of individualism and the separation of church and state, but fundamentalist ideas also permeate mainstream Islamic thought and belief.  I've met only a couple truly secularist Muslims, for instance, one who renounced her religion after moving to the West and the other was gay. I think that unless and until an alternative form of Islam emerges that accommodates Western values and beliefs, intractable cultural differences will render it difficult to easily integrate Islam into the Western mainstream.

Edited January 23, 2019 by turningrite

[QuebecOverCanada]

2 hours ago, Rue said:

 Not all Muslims are Islamists. Not all Christians want to use their state to impose their religious views on non Christians. Hell in Israel most Israels are not religious at all and do not define their Jewish identity as a religious belief but a collective identity based on political suffrage. This is why they reject Jewish religious parties in Israel trying to define what a Jew is by narrow religious terms.

Hell I am a damn Zionist and I don't define myself as a "Jew" because of my beliefs in the Old Testament. To me it is a collective identity that came from being stereotyped as an inferior human and having to liberate from that. Its like when gays talk about their identity. They formed a collective identity to deal with non gays who do not understand or hate them but they aint all having sex the exact same way not that I know but Justin told me that.

So seriously, its like me saying all Quebecers are separatists its just the degree of separation they want.

Not all Muslims are Islamists... Gosh, that's so wrong on so many levels, so where do I start? Are you really knowledgeable on Islam, first off? Do I really have to say that all Islamists are Muslims? Do I have to talk about the concept of Djihad, which is a fundamental aspect of the religion? No, not all Muslims are Islamists, but every Muslim who follows the religion supports Islamists, since they are pursuing a holy war. It's the undeniable truth, you can't say I'm wrong on that; I know the texts, I read some of them. 

A Muslim, who's a true believer has only one and only goal; to pursue Jihad so every human follows the rules of the Quran so that the world becomes Heaven, thus people calling it the Religion of Peace, as the end goal is a prosperous society where all Humans are united under one rule rather than just destruction with no end in sight. It has been like that since the start, and always has been. Islam in its essence is a war religion. It is legal for you, if you're a Muslim, to have many sexual slaves, as the religion was codified during the times where the first Muslims were raping their way through the Middle East and Northern Africa. 

Christianity and Judaism changed a lot since they first started, and are now completely different things from where they were even 60 years ago. Catholics evolved a lot. Sunnis? Did they evolve in their doctrines?

Being Jewish and being a Zionist is not the same as saying you're a Christian or you're a Devout Christian so to speak. Zionism is your opinion on the State of Israel, being Jewish is being part of the religion called Judaism. But with Muslims and Islamists, the beliefs are fundamentally the same, but the call to action and the degree of belief in faith is differing, the Islamists are like the Devout Christians. The Devout Christians are Christians. The Islamists are Muslims.

[Rue]

4 hours ago, turningrite said:

I I think that unless and until an alternative form of Islam emerges that accommodates Western values and beliefs, intractable cultural differences will render it difficult to easily integrate Islam into the Western mainstream.

Alternative forms of Islam have emerged that accommodate Western values and beliefs. For example please go to:

https://muslimreformmovement.org/about/.

I am going to stop there. Clearly you make  a sweeping generalized assumption about all Muslims and their beliefs without doing proper research. I hope that is also short enough for you not to  have to read. I appreciate when I respond taking the time to debate someone and show him I am listening to what he says, some people on this forum would prefer I not, and simply make sweeping generalizations in short sentences. I won't.

 

 

 

[Rue]

2 hours ago, QuebecOverCanada said:

1-Not all Muslims are Islamists... Gosh, that's so wrong on so many levels, so where do I start? Are you really knowledgeable on Islam, first off? Do I really have to say that all Islamists are Muslims? Do I have to talk about the concept of Djihad, which is a fundamental aspect of the religion? No, not all Muslims are Islamists, but every Muslim who follows the religion supports Islamists, since they are pursuing a holy war. It's the undeniable truth, you can't say I'm wrong on that; I know the texts, I read some of them. 

2-A Muslim, who's a true believer has only one and only goal; to pursue Jihad so every human follows the rules of the Quran so that the world becomes Heaven, thus people calling it the Religion of Peace, as the end goal is a prosperous society where all Humans are united under one rule rather than just destruction with no end in sight. It has been like that since the start, and always has been. Islam in its essence is a war religion. It is legal for you, if you're a Muslim, to have many sexual slaves, as the religion was codified during the times where the first Muslims were raping their way through the Middle East and Northern Africa. 

3-Christianity and Judaism changed a lot since they first started, and are now completely different things from where they were even 60 years ago. Catholics evolved a lot. Sunnis? Did they evolve in their doctrines?

4-Being Jewish and being a Zionist is not the same as saying you're a Christian or you're a Devout Christian so to speak. Zionism is your opinion on the State of Israel, being Jewish is being part of the religion called Judaism. But with Muslims and Islamists, the beliefs are fundamentally the same, but the call to action and the degree of belief in faith is differing, the Islamists are like the Devout Christians. The Devout Christians are Christians. The Islamists are Muslims.

In regards to 1: You contradicted yourself. You state not all Muslims are Islamists then go on to state every Muslim who follows the religion supports Islamists. Those two assertions contradict one another. Go find out who Dr. M. Zuhdi Jasser, CEO of the American Islamic Forum for Democracy (AIFD) and co-founder of the MRM is.  He Jis a physician and former U.S. Navy officer whose parents fled Syria. Go to http://thefederalist.com/2017/01/30/muslim-reformer-speaks-battle-islamism-pc/   and  https://muslimreformmovement.org/about/.

I think you and Turningrite and others to a great disservice to reformist Muslims making statements as if they do not exist. Its wrong. Please go to: https://www.gatestoneinstitute.org/7009/muslim-reform-movement.

And just so you know I do not speak for him or any Reformist Muslims and suggest they all think the same way here is another Reformist Muslim who is critical of Dr. Jasser: https://imamtawhidi.com/zuhdijasser1/

The point is you really need to make an effort to stop assuming you know what all Muslims think and that they all have the same beliefs. Please go to https://muslimreformmovement.org/about/.

Please go find out who Nonie Darwish is.  Go find out who Raheel Raza or Salim Mansour are...go to https://raheelraza.wordpress.com/page/2/. Go find out who Irshad Manji is. I can sit here and list hundreds of Muslims across the world and here in Canada who  evidence you clearly have no clue what you talk about. Please do not pretend they do not exist.

Interestingly in defence of 1 you stated exactly what an extremist fundamentalist does to justify not debating, you stated: " It's the undeniable truth, you can't say I'm wrong on that; I know the texts, I read some of them. " You pose as an authority beyond question. That is precisely what fundamentalists do and who you claim to criticize and you engage in this very fundamentalism. No of course you are not infallible any more than any other human is. Undeniable truth?  Really? Get real. The Koran is not written in chronological order and so to understand it you would need to understand that the order to read its verses is not what is listed in the Koran. You have to be an expert on when each verse was written regardless of where you find them in the Koran and understand the Koran is what we call fluid in concept. It evolved and many of its passages add to, amend, or completely change the ones written before them and if you don't know what order to read them in you will necessarily read them out of context.

Next unless you read and write Arabic fluently, and depend on translation from Arabic to English you can't possibly understand much of the context and meanings that can not easily transfer from Arabic to English. Arabic uses one word for many different words in English and so its easy to mistranslate them.

How could you possibly state:" I know the texts, I read some of them/" What a silly, presumptuous and ignorant thing to say. To start with Muslim scholars who spent far more time than you have struggled and died without ever understanding all there is to know about the Koran. It is a complex form of writing often allegorical in content and subject to many possible interpretations and because its second hand, i.e., is not first hand written by Muhammed but written after the fact we can never know what he actually said or may never have said  but has been claimed to have said.

Next, what do you mean you read "some" of the verses. How could you possibly understand the Koran reading only "some verses". Were you even aware the verses you read may be subject to other verses you did not read and therefore not what you think they mean because you don't understand their true context? Well? Only a fool would claim to understand the Koran after reading some of its verses in English. Get real.

You know how I know you are yet another arm chair expert on Islam who reads a few articles on internet and  presto is an Islamic scholar? Easy. Your description of Islam being a religion of war and how you define Jihad and peace.

You sure as hell are no Muslim that I know.

In regards to 2 to start with let's deal with your misunderstanding that Islam claims to be a religion of "peace" or "war".

In the past Islam was referred to  or called the religion of peace not for the reasons you think. The word "Islam" literally originates  from the root word “sa-la-ma”, as does the term Muslim used to refer to someone "who follows the message of Islam". As I stated in Arabic, words have many more meanings than in English. So salama can mean peace but it can also mean a state serenity, a state of calmness,   feeling secure, safe, content by realizing there is something bigger that created life out there. Most religions believe that. The problem is experts like you who claim to be Muslim scholars re-word that to mean "people who submit to Muhammed". In fact all religions like Islam, suggest one will experience an innate sense of security and peacefulness if they let go to a higher sense or something other than themselves. In  Judaism, Christian and Islam we use the expression "God" to explain what we let go to. Buddhists and Taoists, Hindus, Seikhs, don't necessarily call it God the way these three religions do but its a higher energy source.

Next Jihad, does not refer to war as you think it does. It may be used by some Muslims to refer to an armed struggle against the West but that is not its original or only meaning. In fact it refers to the spiritual struggle within oneself against sin. All religions refer to the same thing. Humans created religions to guide us into controlling our primal instincts and drivers to kill, rape, destroy, engage in incest, theft. We created religions to regulate our behaviour.

I will finish the rest of my response in the next post, but let me say unlike you when I lived in Israel as a necessary part of being a Zionist I had to learn Islam. I also lived with Beduins and learned their culture. I am no expert. I can't possibly be....but I was taught to listen to Muslims teach me about their religion.

What I learned is the interpretation differs with each Muslim scholar (Mullah, Imam) because there is no one centralized school or institute to teach one form of it.

What I learned was Islam is subject to being interpreted in a way that is not written in the Koran but comes from the Muslim authority (Imam, Mullah) applying it within the cultural context of the society in which that scholar lives.

So for example in Jordan Muslim women do not cover up but in other Muslim countries they do.  You will find no words in the Koran that state a woman must cover up. That is an interpretation  a Muslim scholar created. Its not written anywhere nor is it from the Koran-its a cultural not a religious interpretation and for you to even suggest its applied the same way  in everywhere for that reason alone is absurd. I doubt you even know how many Muslim sects there are.  To start with the two major sects of Sunni and Shiite Islam are completely different.

Some will say Sunnis are about 85% of all Muslims...but not all Sunnis are of the same sect or belief. They have many different branches of belief and variation. The well known Sunnis sects are the extremist the Wahhabis,  Muslim Brotherhood (which immitates the Masons in structure and some believe is a Masonic branch limited to Muslims), and Jama`at-i-Islami.

Shi`ites can be broken down as  Twelvers (Ithna-`Asharis), Seveners (Isma`ilis), and Fivers (Zaydis).. Shi`ites believe Muslims should follow `Ali,”  Muhammad’s son-in-law, who they claim was Muhammed's designated successor (imam).

Then there are the Islamic mystics called the  Sufis who seek a personal experience with  God through meditation.

Then came the Bahais and Ahmadiyyas who came out of Shiite and Sunni Islam. There are also Druze, Alevis, and the Alawis who split off as well from the Shiites.

The Beduins of the Middle East, descendants of the people of the Arabian desert practice a spiritual path very similar to aboriginals in North America, South America, Australia (aborigines) and New Zealand (Maori).

I doubt you know what any of them believe. What I know is that I do not presume to know until I meet each Muslim and ask them as individual what they believe.

Until then I refrain from posing as a Muslim know it all.

What I also know is a terrorist in the name of Islam is someone I do not mistake with an innocent Muslim because that is what Muslim terrorists want you and me to do. If we do that and hate all Muslims we empower Muslim terrorists to have all Muslims believe we are hateful of them all and these terrorists are right to say every non Muslim is evil.

So if I did not know better I would think if anything when I read what you write you could me a Muslim extremist terrorist deliberately writing falsehoods about Islam to inflame Muslims into thinking all we non Muslims are stupid and do not know the difference.

You see I put body parts in bags after a terrorist attack. I keep writing that to people like you and that is because I need to tell you, a Muslim terrorist wants to blow people up and when they do they end up achieving the lesson I wish I could have imparted to people like you and failed to do and that is when you blow someone up because you think you know who they are and so hate them, when they blow up, they have the same colour blood and the same colours when they are left in mounds on the street and let me assure you of this, Muslim terrorists kill more Muslims than non Muslims. Muslims have more to fear from Muslim terrorists than you do and yet you write them all off with your assumptions. How would any peaceful Muslim reach out to you when you claim without speaking to them you already know they hate you?