Bernier's Party at 13% in the polls

[Argus]

16 hours ago, marcus said:

Simple people need to simplify things

Kind of like your antisemitism, eh?

16 hours ago, marcus said:

- Immigrants are poor and go on welfare
- I support immigration because I'm some poor/hippy/marxist/etc 
- Your repeated racist comments, calling immigrants "goat herders"

SOME immigrants are poor and go on welfare. Those would be the ones like you, probably. The ones we should never have let in. As for goat herders, hey, some of them ARE goat herders. Why do you find that so pejorative? I bet there were a hell of a lot more goat herders among that lot from Syria than software engineers.

16 hours ago, marcus said:

People in your family tree were deserving of it and received it. These people are also deserving of it.

Nobody in my family tree ever moved to Canada and collected social services, because there were none to collect. As for these people 'deserving it'. Since they never worked or contributed anything to this country, the deserve nothing back.

 

[Argus]

9 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

"really good communication skills" is a moving target.  I am the only accent free person in the corporate team where I work.

Well, where I worked last you didn't get hired, much less promoted without a battery of tests on your oral and written communication skills. Accents are one thing, but being unable to write a proper report, much less decipher one written in English, is another. A variety of reports have documented poor literacy among Immigrants as a major factor in poor economic success.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

1. Well, where I worked last you didn't get hired, much less promoted without a battery of tests on your oral and written communication skills.

2. Accents are one thing, but being unable to write a proper report, much less decipher one written in English, is another. A variety of reports have documented poor literacy among Immigrants as a major factor in poor economic success.

1. The government right ?  Not a real world example IMO.

2. Reports are also a thing of the past in my experience.  Any report you need should be generated automatically by your software.  You need to be able to think and analyze quickly.  Communication is also essential but broken English... no problem.

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Reports are also a thing of the past in my experience.  Any report you need should be generated automatically by your software.  You need to be able to think and analyze quickly.  Communication is also essential but broken English... no problem.

 

In my experience, ESL contractors and immigrants would ask us questions about written and spoken English for fear of making a mistake.   Some of the younger folk from India thought they had learned American English usage rules very well, but we still giggled every time they said "prepone" as the logical opposite of "postpone", as widely used in India.

Indian...Russian...Ukrainian...Chinese...Korean...they all would ask for clarification when unsure, which is a good thing.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

1. In my experience, ESL contractors and immigrants would ask us questions about written and spoken English for fear of making a mistake.  

2. Some of the younger folk from India thought they had learned American English usage rules very well, but we still giggled every time they said "prepone" as the logical opposite of "postpone", as widely used in India.

3. Indian...Russian...Ukrainian...Chinese...Korean...they all would ask for clarification when unsure, which is a good thing.

1. Yes, this happens.

2.

3. Indeed.  We get on.  I can work better with a like mind, even if the language lacks a little.  I will finish their sentences for them...

[Argus]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. The government right ?  Not a real world example IMO.

Because communication skills aren't essential in other organizations?

Quote

2. Reports are also a thing of the past in my experience.  Any report you need should be generated automatically by your software.  You need to be able to think and analyze quickly.  Communication is also essential but broken English... no problem.

Try submitting a broken English report for a government agency as a contractor. It'll be the last time you're hired. For that matter, imperfect English, especially in writing, tends to be instinctively equated with incompetence and lack of intelligence in many people.

Edited September 26, 2018 by Argus

[Michael Hardner]

26 minutes ago, Argus said:

1. Because communication skills aren't essential in other organizations?

2. Try submitting a broken English report for a government agency as a contractor. It'll be the last time you're hired.

3. For that matter, imperfect English, especially in writing, tends to be instinctively equated with incompetence and lack of intelligence in many people.

1. Dude.  It's the government.... " a battery of tests on your oral and written communication skills." ...How's that working out ?

2. I would tell you what I think of government vendors but I am NOT judgemental.  Good luck.

3. Uh huh.

Anyway, they are still bringing over loads of Indian people in the financial sector where I sit; fill your boots with good Canadian writers.  I like my writing just ok, but I'm pretty sure I would jump out a window if I had anybody nitpicking it

Edited September 26, 2018 by Michael Hardner

[marcus]

7 hours ago, Argus said:

Kind of like your antisemitism, eh?

Keep scrambling. Another weak and desperate comment. 

7 hours ago, Argus said:

SOME immigrants are poor and go on welfare. Those would be the ones like you, probably.

Heh. Meltdown. This guy is you, isn't he? 

7 hours ago, Argus said:

The ones we should never have let in. As for goat herders, hey, some of them ARE goat herders.

"Some" are poor. "Some" are goat herders. 

Keep digging your hole, you bigot. 

7 hours ago, Argus said:

Why do you find that so pejorative? I bet there were a hell of a lot more goat herders among that lot from Syria than software engineers.

You need to get out and explore the world. Visiting Foxnews web site and having circle jerk sessions with your fellow bigots on this forum is not exploring the world. There is more than just Abbotsford out there. 

7 hours ago, Argus said:

Nobody in my family tree ever moved to Canada and collected social services, because there were none to collect. As for these people 'deserving it'. Since they never worked or contributed anything to this country, the deserve nothing back.

If you are a Canadian permanent resident or a citizen, it doesn't matter where you were born, you are deserving of any program we have in Canada. It doesn't matter how much bigotry you spew out, there will not be a two-tier system in Canada to please you.

[Argus]

13 hours ago, marcus said:

Keep scrambling. Another weak and desperate comment. 

You think it's not pertinent to point out your constant and unending vilification of anything related to Israel and Jews ... oh, excuse me. It's not Jews you hate. It's "zionists", which as anyone knows is what you people use for "Jew", so you don't get booted off web sites.

13 hours ago, marcus said:

"Some" are poor. "Some" are goat herders. 

Keep digging your hole, you bigot. 

You deny some are poor and some are goat herders? Goat herding is a respectable profession in some places. You might even be capable of doing it yourself.

13 hours ago, marcus said:

If you are a Canadian permanent resident or a citizen, it doesn't matter where you were born, you are deserving of any program we have in Canada.

Not if you're a foreigner.

 

[marcus]

17 minutes ago, Argus said:

You think it's not pertinent to point out your constant and unending vilification of anything related to Israel and Jews ... oh, excuse me. It's not Jews you hate. It's "zionists", which as anyone knows is what you people use for "Jew", so you don't get booted off web sites.

I have challenged you to post comments I have made where I am vilifying Jews. You have not. You are lying.

You are not good at debating. You just yell and scream and shoot blanks. 

Quote

You deny some are poor and some are goat herders? Goat herding is a respectable profession in some places. You might even be capable of doing it yourself.

Your attempt at normalizing bigotry continues.

When people call you out on your generalizations, stereotyping and vilification of a group, you try to cover it up with desperate comments. Then you start spazzing.

Your comments are full of bigotry, misinformation and the occasional spaz attacks. In your comedic post about being an immigration minister, you once again showed that your information about Canadian immigration is superficial. To become an immigration minister, you first need to understand the basic rules and programs.

I am going to continue to call you out on your misinformation and bigotry. I will remind you about your spreading of  anti-Canadian values on here, whenever I have the time and patience to post a reply.

Consider this scenario: If you were not lucky enough to have been born in Canada and wanted to immigrate here, AND your ridiculous suggestion of implementing "value based" interviews, you easily FAIL this interview. 

Q: "How do you feel about Muslims?"

A: "I think they're goat herders and they keep their wives at home and will go on welfare if they're allowed to come to Canada. They shouldn't be allowed into Canada as far as I'm concerned!"

Quote

Not if you're a foreigner.

Settle down bigot.

Edited September 26, 2018 by marcus

[Charles Anthony]

Folks, 

None of you represent the topic of this discussion.  Avoid thread drift and personal commentary. 

[turningrite]

13 hours ago, marcus said:

If you are a Canadian permanent resident or a citizen, it doesn't matter where you were born, you are deserving of any program we have in Canada. It doesn't matter how much bigotry you spew out, there will not be a two-tier system in Canada to please you.

But this is the root of the growing problem in this country. Many of those who rely on taxpayer funded programs have never paid into the system or have done so only minimally. The Fraser Institute calculates that this problem now costs Canadian taxpayers tens of billions of dollars a year. The assumed "social contract" is breaking down and people, including me, are losing faith in the current system. My preferred solution would be to see the entire social benefits system redesigned to focus eligibility determination on residency requirements and contributions, similar to the American Social Security framework. The respected British economist and Oxford professor Sir Paul Collier has noted that one of the major problems with large-scale migration in developed economies is a decline in social cohesion. This is in significant measure related to the increasing reliance by newcomers on taxpayer funded benefits. Ultimately, if this problem isn't solved, borders will close. It's not a racist analysis. Rather, it's a practical and realistic one.

Personally, I think we need people like Bernier raising these issues for the purpose of public debate as our traditional mainstream parties seem content to avoid such debate and castigate as xenophobes, or worse, those who raise objective concerns.

Edited September 26, 2018 by turningrite

[Queenmandy85]

On 9/25/2018 at 11:17 AM, turningrite said:

That might be relevant were Bernier's nascent party actually included in recent polling. So, don't pop your champagne cork yet. The most recent info I can find on Grenier's tracking site doesn't include a single poll that actually gauges support for Bernier's party, likely because it doesn't officially exist at this point.

So where does this 13% come from?

[turningrite]

17 hours ago, Queenmandy85 said:

So where does this 13% come from?

The link to the poll is in the first entry under this topic. I believe a more recent straw poll by Nanos (i.e. asking a hypothetical question as Bernier's party didn't legally exist when the polling was done) indicated firm and/or leaning support for his group at 17 percent. Given that a significant segment of voters, many of whom pay little attention to politics outside of election periods, are likely unaware of Bernier's party and its policies, it's possible these figures understate the percentage of voters who will or might consider voting for it.

Edited September 27, 2018 by turningrite

[Army Guy]

On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 3:19 PM, turningrite said:

But this is the root of the growing problem in this country. Many of those who rely on taxpayer funded programs have never paid into the system or have done so only minimally. The Fraser Institute calculates that this problem now costs Canadian taxpayers tens of billions of dollars a year. The assumed "social contract" is breaking down and people, including me, are losing faith in the current system. My preferred solution would be to see the entire social benefits system redesigned to focus eligibility determination on residency requirements and contributions, similar to the American Social Security framework. The respected British economist and Oxford professor Sir Paul Collier has noted that one of the major problems with large-scale migration in developed economies is a decline in social cohesion. This is in significant measure related to the increasing reliance by newcomers on taxpayer funded benefits. Ultimately, if this problem isn't solved, borders will close. It's not a racist analysis. Rather, it's a practical and realistic one.

Personally, I think we need people like Bernier raising these issues for the purpose of public debate as our traditional mainstream parties seem content to avoid such debate and castigate as xenophobes, or worse, those who raise objective concerns.

Again this is another topic that is off limits because if you do discuss this your a racist mother trucker with tattoos on your ass that say "Born to ride and shoot shit" ....and we are not the only Canadians that are concerned over immigration, fact is the majority of Canadians have various levels of concerns about immigration and accepting refugees....all one has to do is honestly look at what is happening in Europe right now....the right side is gaining numbers not because immigration and the flood of refugees is working because it is not. or these groups would just be back ground noise….Time for discussion is now, yes even for you liberal minded Canadians....come out and talk to the racists ...sorry I meant conservatives were not contagious . 

 

[turningrite]

15 hours ago, Army Guy said:

Again this is another topic that is off limits because if you do discuss this your a racist mother trucker with tattoos on your ass that say "Born to ride and shoot shit" ....and we are not the only Canadians that are concerned over immigration, fact is the majority of Canadians have various levels of concerns about immigration and accepting refugees....all one has to do is honestly look at what is happening in Europe right now....the right side is gaining numbers not because immigration and the flood of refugees is working because it is not. or these groups would just be back ground noise….Time for discussion is now, yes even for you liberal minded Canadians....come out and talk to the racists ...sorry I meant conservatives were not contagious . 

 

There's a good column on the National Post website about the growing reaction against high immigration levels in once ultra-progressive Sweden, which notes that Canada could face a similar backlash. (link below) It notes that the approach of the mainstream politicians to suppress debate on immigration and refugee issues, usually by demonizing critics, is more likely to fuel rather than calm discontent. 

We need to subject our approach to immigration and refugee policy to a thorough and honest review, with a view to ensuring that the actual needs of Canadians and the Canadian economy are taken into account. Skilled economic immigrants should still be permitted within reasonable limits that take into account real labour market needs and conditions and the family reunification program (i.e. sponsored relatives) should be adjusted by implementing a policy of proportionality, whereby applicants with a significant proportion of their family members in Canada would be prioritized, as I believe Australia has done. Sponsors should also have to purchase health insurance for their relatives covering the applicable sponsorship periods. And the refugee program should be calibrated to prioritize claimants who demonstrably face a risk of persecution in their homelands. Marginal applicants should be expeditiously processed and removed.

https://nationalpost.com/opinion/kelly-mcparland-immigration-hardened-swedish-hearts-it-can-happen-here-too

[Argus]

So here is Bernier's new party and its platform. I have to say I'm liking a lot of what is says.

https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/platform

[Bonam]

7 minutes ago, Argus said:

So here is Bernier's new party and its platform. I have to say I'm liking a lot of what is says.

https://www.peoplespartyofcanada.ca/platform

Looks pretty good to me as well. Better than the current mainstream parties, anyway. 

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Looks pretty good to me as well. Better than the current mainstream parties, anyway. 

Yeah, I wrote to my Conservative MP about immigration telling him they were going to bleed votes if they didn't come up with a proper response and all I got back was bland mush with nothing specific. But I'm liking more about this than the immigration part. I like his commitment to free trade between provinces, and getting rid of corporate welfare. I also like removing the CRTC from the telcom regulating business to encourage more competition. I also like his tax proposals, though I have doubts that is workable. Ie, that it will produce the same amount of money and not a whopping big deficit. On the other hand, he's promised to eliminate the deficit within 2 years of taking office.

Edited November 16, 2018 by Argus

[Bonam]

9 hours ago, Argus said:

Yeah, I wrote to my Conservative MP about immigration telling him they were going to bleed votes if they didn't come up with a proper response and all I got back was bland mush with nothing specific. But I'm liking more about this than the immigration part. I like his commitment to free trade between provinces, and getting rid of corporate welfare. I also like removing the CRTC from the telcom regulating business to encourage more competition. I also like his tax proposals, though I have doubts that is workable. Ie, that it will produce the same amount of money and not a whopping big deficit. On the other hand, he's promised to eliminate the deficit within 2 years of taking office.

Yes, some decent ideas in there on multiple fronts. We'll see how it does in the next election. Canada's politics has been fairly dynamic with parties coming and going fairly frequently. Can't say I'm a fan of the name, though. 

[turningrite]

9 hours ago, Bonam said:

Yes, some decent ideas in there on multiple fronts. We'll see how it does in the next election. Canada's politics has been fairly dynamic with parties coming and going fairly frequently. Can't say I'm a fan of the name, though. 

I'm not a fan of the the party name either. I'd rather it have been something like the 'Popular Action Coalition of Canada' but names are just names. The bigger issue for me is that Bernier stay on track on economic issues and avoid getting sidetracked into debates driven by social conservatism. Likely half of the electorate is amenable to Bernier's critique of immigration policy, however a similar market doesn't exist for social conservatism. Allowing for free votes on contentious social issues is fine but Bernier has to make it clear that his party doesn't exist to promote social conservatism.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, turningrite said:

he bigger issue for me is that Bernier stay on track on economic issues and avoid getting sidetracked into debates driven by social conservatism. Likely half of the electorate is amenable to Bernier's critique of immigration policy, 

And if you remove the diehard liberals and NDPers who would NEVER vote for a conservative party it's more like 70%. 

[Queenmandy85]

On 11/17/2018 at 11:19 AM, Argus said:

And if you remove the diehard liberals and NDPers who would NEVER vote for a conservative party it's more like 70%. 

If you remove the Grits, NDPers and CPP, Bernier has a shot at a majority, if he can somehow defeat the Greens and the BQ.

Bernier's party is at 1.5% and sinking according to Eric Grenier's analysis of polls.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Queenmandy85
Additional comment

[turningrite]

1 hour ago, Queenmandy85 said:

If you remove the Grits, NDPers and CPP, Bernier has a shot at a majority, if he can somehow defeat the Greens and the BQ.

Bernier's party is at 1.5% and sinking according to Eric Grenier's analysis of polls.

Bernier's party only recently started to be included in mainstream polling. Further, it still has little visibility and I believe has organized riding associations in perhaps one-third of the country's ridings, at most. It will be interesting to see how it fares as it gains in visibility and is increasingly included in mainstream polling. Also, I believe it will fail to gain much traction unless it specifically raises the profile of its immigration critique, the issue most likely to engage voter interest. I personally believe in economic libertarianism and increasingly support shrinkage of the welfare and subsidy state, however such policies likely aren't at this point widely popular among a critical mass of Canadian voters. I would prefer to see a CPC minority backed by the PPC, which could be possible should Bernier's party attract 12 to 15 percent of the vote, which is likely as positive a result for it as might be expected. It would change the dynamic and hopefully force a minority CPC government to seriously address immigration and refugee policy.  As the NDP appears to be headed into oblivion, though, let's hope disillusioned NDP voters don't hold their noses and keep the Libs in power.

A second point to be made here is that recent polling is inconsistent, with some mainstream polling indicating a Lib lead (i.e. Ipsos) in October while other polling indicated a CPC lead (i.e. Forum). My belief is that few Canadian voters who aren't politically engaged except during election campaigns are yet tuned into the 2019 election. In 2015 the Libs were solidly in third place among the mainstream parties in early August and ended up winning a majority mandate not much more than two months later. Campaigns do matter.

Edited November 22, 2018 by turningrite

[Queenmandy85]

I agree that campaigns do matter. We have to be careful to keep an objective view. Any co-operation between Mr. Sheer and Mr. Bernier would be complicated by their challenging personal relationship. It would be like a Clark - Manning co-operation or President Trump - Secretary Clinton coalition.

Sheer is smart enough to court the Red Tories rather than the Libertarians. Red Tories and Blue Grits are where the votes lie.

I do not have a horse in this race. I have been a Progressive Conservative since 1962. My party disappeared when Peter MacKay stabbed us in the back and sold us out to the Socialist Credit (Reform) party.

As for polling, Genier does an analysis of all the major polls so his results are based on a much broader sample and therefore more accurate. Hence that is why the US has President Clinton and Prime Minister Trudeau's minority government continues to struggle. ;-) As you say, it is the campaign that makes all the difference.

Edited November 22, 2018 by Queenmandy85