Faisal Hussain - the evolving story

[turningrite]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

I  think all assaults - whether  "knocking off a yarmulke or tugging off an hijab"- should be denounced in the strongest possible terms.   Both the Ottawa Accord and Motion M103 made the same point, even while mentioning a specific category of hate.

I think your position and that of some other commentators on this topic to be a bit overblown. Hate crime is more commonly being reported nowadays, likely as a result of greater publicity about and acceptance of its existence, but also because the meaning of the term has expanded. Many incidents that are now reported as hate crimes likely wouldn't have warranted police attention even a decade ago. We now consider insults and all manner of other rude behavior to fall into the category of hate crime. But even with the broader definition of and increased credibility accorded hate crime, including much behavior that in the past would likely have been considered merely uncivil conduct, there were according to Stats Canada fewer than 1,300 hate crime incidents reported to police across the country in 2015 (see link), which, given a population of 36 million or so, works out to one report for every 27 thousand people. And presumably far fewer criminal convictions resulted, particularly in cases where non-violent incidents were reported. Further undermining the notion that there's been an explosion in hate crimes is the fact that fewer than 40 percent of the total incidents reported in 2015 were violent in nature. And the Stats Can report the table accompanies indicates that those most statistically likely to suffer violent attacks were members of the LGBTQ community while those least likely among the categories analyzed to face violence were those who reported incidents grounded in religiously motivated intolerance. Sometimes it helps to stand back and broaden one's perspective on these matters.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/85-002-x/2017001/article/14832/tbl/tbl02-eng.htm

Edited August 2, 2018 by turningrite

[Centerpiece]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

I concur with Dialamah on no this topic.

In case you missed my response to Dialamah:

In 2015, hate crimes against Catholics rose by a similar percentage - from 35 to 55. Crimes against Jews actually dropped from 213 to 178. In 2016 - crimes against Muslims went down to 139 - and crimes against Jews went up. One thing is clear - with a population of only 400,000 Jews as opposed to one million Muslims - hate crimes against Jews are still much more prevalent than those against Muslims. I would also speculate that Jews are even less likely to report a hate crime because they have become so used to it - sadly. Yet the media and politicians zero in on Muslim "hate crimes" - as so shamefully demonstrated with the Hijab hoax fiasco that had politicians tripping over each other with apologies and outrage.

[Argus]

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. I don't think you really believe that the religion causes people to be violent.  If I became Muslim do you think I would become violent ?  I don't think so.

Why would you think that? Ideologies and religions have caused massive violence throughout history. Now you might say that the bulk of communists, fascists, Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Hindus, etc., do not become violent towards others. For every thousand people who rush to burn houses because of a rumor some Christian or Ahmadi burned a page from the Koran there are tens of thousands who did not (mind, who knows how close they were and whether they knew in time to join).  And I accept that the bulk of the followers of Communism, and probably even Fascism would not take part in or support mass murder in the name of their ideology. But that does not suggest they do not, in large measure, share the beliefs and ideals of those who do.  And if that ideology or religion's beliefs are cruel, heartless, and inhumane, then they form a population from which, inevitably, the more zealous and thus more violent emerge.

I would not, given we can pick and choose, want someone who is a Communist or a Fascist to immigrate to Canada. Nor would I want a Muslim, or people with other inhumane religious beliefs. The more such people come here, the larger the population base, the more certain that zealots will emerge from it, filled with extremist self-confidence in the rightness of their beliefs, and willing to commit violence in pursuit of them.

[Argus]

23 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

 

Here's one suggesting we intern them in camps.   Seems to be a good amount of anti-Islam stuff on here:

 

https://www.mapleleafweb.com/forums/topic/436-islam-is-a-failure/?page=2

The claim for evidence was for the claim "and yet the lies about Muslims become bolder and bolder." Your cite does not appear provide that. Though admittedly I didn't search the entire quoted thread.

Edited August 2, 2018 by Argus

[Argus]

21 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

The point is - almost all of us know that the Mafia is but a tiny subset of Italians. Likewise, regardless of your drum-beating - almost all of us know that extremists are but a small subset of Muslims. 

Define extremist. 

Do you regard someone who believes homosexuality must be criminalized and that women must obey their husbands or fathers, and that lacking that a reasonable amount of violence against them is acceptable as being extremist? Do you regard someone who believes apostates and blasphemers must be imprisoned or killed to be an extremist? Do you believe people who support Sharia law being made mandatory across society to be extremists?

Because while there are only a small number of Muslims out beheading people and blowing up markets, there are quite a lot of Muslims with the above beliefs.

[Argus]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Not exactly.  Anti-Muslim hate crimes are rising, and The Rebel and The Sun are squarely responsible for adding to an environment of intolerance. 

Really? You don't think maybe Muslims are in some way responsible for that too? I mean, there doesn't seem to be the same antipathy to Hindus or Buddhists. Why do you suppose that is? How come we're not seeing tons of hate crimes against Chinese, given the rise in their numbers? Why Muslims in particular?

Edited August 2, 2018 by Argus

[DogOnPorch]

11 minutes ago, Argus said:

Really? You don't think maybe Muslims are in some way responsible for that too? I mean, there doesn't seem to be the same antipathy to Hindus or Buddhists. Why do you suppose that is? How come we're not seeing tons of hate crimes against Chinese, given the rise in their numbers? Why Muslims in particular?

 

Chinese Canadians were pretty damn upset about the Hijab "Hoax"...in fact.  

 

[Michael Hardner]

47 minutes ago, Argus said:

1.You don't think maybe Muslims are in some way responsible for that too?

2. I mean, there doesn't seem to be the same antipathy to Hindus or Buddhists. Why do you suppose that is?

3. How come we're not seeing tons of hate crimes against Chinese, given the rise in their numbers? Why Muslims in particular?

1. So you are saying the Muslims are "responsible" for hate crimes against them because ?  Other Muslims commit terrorist attacks ?  Do you realize that this principle rationalizes terrorism itself right ?

2. I am not sure.  I think your approach of blaming the victims first is probably a safe bet though. (Sarcasm)

3. Chinese aren't being blamed for terrorism the way The Rebel, The Sun and now you blame individual Muslims.  But who knows - maybe the three of you can open up some new markets for hate crimes once this trade war gets going ? 

The idea that victims are implicitly to blame for crimes against them is really untouchable and justifies a whole host of historical wrongs.  

[Michael Hardner]

58 minutes ago, Argus said:

The claim for evidence was for the claim "and yet the lies about Muslims become bolder and bolder." Your cite does not appear provide that. Though admittedly I didn't search the entire quoted thread.

I thought you were asking for proof that we have been asking for Muslims to be rounded up/expelled/banned on here.  My feeling is that the M103 issue was a new low for people making outright lies on here, in that people lied, and exaggerated about what the *resolution* was about and they still do.  I don't believe that the level of lies reached that plainness or volume prior to that.

[dialamah]

53 minutes ago, Argus said:

Really? You don't think maybe Muslims are in some way responsible for that too? I mean, there doesn't seem to be the same antipathy to Hindus or Buddhists. Why do you suppose that is? How come we're not seeing tons of hate crimes against Chinese, given the rise in their numbers? Why Muslims in particular?

Probably at least in part because of people like you, DoP, Trump,  and others who follow the lead and repeat the rhetoric of such anti-Muslim luminaries as Gisele Litman, Mark Steyn, Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Bruce Bawer, Daniel Pipes, Patrick Buchanan and others.  The ideas these people have disseminated have been used by Geert Wilder and other far-right politicians and were the inspiration behind Anders Breviek attack that left 69 dead and 150+ injured, including children.  Those same ideas that Bissonnette was exposed to and that led him to slaughter Muslims as they worshipped.  

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

 Yet the media and politicians zero in on Muslim "hate crimes" - as so shamefully demonstrated with the Hijab hoax fiasco that had politicians tripping over each other with apologies and outrage.

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/171128/t001d-eng.htm

Crimes towards Muslims did trend up to 2016.  If it is indeed subsiding then great but it did go up.  And specific crimes such as holocaust denial and vandalism do deserve special attention - context is everything.  We also had a massacre at a mosque in 2017.

 

[DogOnPorch]

7 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. So you are saying the Muslims are "responsible" for hate crimes against them because ?  Other Muslims commit terrorist attacks ?  Do you realize that this principle rationalizes terrorism itself right ?

 

Club Islam has a book called the Quran that the members all follow. It says KILL THE UNBELIEVER. What percentage of the Islamic Ummah killing the Unbeliever is acceptable in your opinion?

[DogOnPorch]

12 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Probably at least in part because of people like you, DoP, Trump,  and others who follow the lead and repeat the rhetoric of such anti-Muslim luminaries as Gisele Litman, Mark Steyn, Pamela Geller, Robert Spencer, Bruce Bawer, Daniel Pipes, Patrick Buchanan and others.  The ideas these people have disseminated have been used by Geert Wilder and other far-right politicians and were the inspiration behind Anders Breviek attack that left 69 dead and 150+ injured, including children.  Those same ideas that Bissonnette was exposed to and that led him to slaughter Muslims as they worshipped.  

 

You're free to support Islam. I'm free to not support your cult.

[scribblet]

9 hours ago, Goddess said:

I wish we would start keeping stats for hate crimes BY Muslims against Westerners.  I'm absolutely positive that is rising in Canada.  Earlier this week, a lady I work with was followed through a London Drugs by a Muslim man and his burka'ed wife - he was angry, shouting at her in whatever language, apparently didn't like the length of the skirt she was wearing.  Twice she told him to Stop and leave her alone.  She finally just left the store, no one did anything to help her.  But of course, unless it's a white person shouting at a Muslim, it's not going to make the news.  A white guy yelling at a Muslim?  That makes the news as a hate crime.  A Muslim yelling at a Western woman?  Who cares.

At least we're keeping track of what's happening with our Jewish population.  Anti-semitism IS rising in Canada:

https://torontosun.com/news/national/anti-semitism-on-the-rise-in-canada-statistics-canada

While some of that stat may include white supremicists, I doubt it's completely white supremicists increasing the Jew-hating in Canada.

I'm not sure why so many think that followers of one of the most intolerant, misogynistic religions are not also perpetrators of hate crimes.  It's like there are 2 sets of standards - oh yes, we'll say "Musllims committing hate crimes is also bad" but in reality - we're not allowed to acknowledge that it happens because it doesn't fit the current  narrative of Muslims always being the victims, not the perpetrators.

Apparently just reporting crimes or incidents by Muslims is stirring it up, only non Muslim crimes shold be reported.  If it where not for the Sun we would have less imfo than we  do now.  There was another swimming pool incident recently but no worries, he'll get off due to cultural differences.  If we continue to cover up and hide incidents we enable them.  Fortunately Canada doesn't have the same demographics as Europe because they are in trouble.

[Guest]

12 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. You would think so, but there are a lot of gullible people out there.  And recently we have discovered that there are far more than we thought.  We haven't been educating people and engendering trust, which is IMO why we have Sandy Hook and similar conspiracies about.

2. Sure but they can't promote hate.

I don't even know what that means, really.  How do I know if what I say makes you hate something?  Unless it can be proven to be deliberate, and even then, there's nothing wrong with hate.  Acting in an illegal way due to the hate would be a crime, of course,  but just hating is okay. 

I would guess anyway.  I don't know of anything I actually hate. 

[Michael Hardner]

11 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1.  How do I know if what I say makes you hate something? 

2. Unless it can be proven to be deliberate, and even then, there's nothing wrong with hate.  Acting in an illegal way due to the hate would be a crime, of course,  but just hating is okay. 

3. I would guess anyway.  I don't know of anything I actually hate. 

1. Hmmm... because we are not babies ?  Because people who promote racial lies do so knowingly, or at least out of extreme ignorance with the knowledge that doing so is prohibited.  

2. On a certain scale it becomes a problem for all of us.  This is pretty much elementary stuff.  I can find a bunch of gullible idiots, hone down the group until I find the most violent and gullible one, then lie about you to this person and get them to take you out.  If you have a newspaper or a website with an audience of 100K, it's pretty much guaranteed that you have a handful of people like that.

3. You don't have to know much, maybe just a wiki page of early/mid 20th century history ?

 

[DogOnPorch]

Islam isn't a race or a skin colour.

[Centerpiece]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/171128/t001d-eng.htm

Crimes towards Muslims did trend up to 2016.  If it is indeed subsiding then great but it did go up.  And specific crimes such as holocaust denial and vandalism do deserve special attention - context is everything.  We also had a massacre at a mosque in 2017.

 

Understanding that hate crimes against Jews are considerably more frequent than against Muslims, Canadians are proving to be exceptionally tolerant in a world that is tarnished with heinous acts perpetrated by those who claim to be adherents of Islam. With ISIS, the Taliban and "lone wolf" attacks right here in Canada - it is comforting (if that's the right word) that Canadians have for the most part, been quite serene and peaceful in their response - in spite of media opinions to the contrary, including yours. Let's not lose track that in 2016, we had 139 reported "hate crimes" against a population of over one million Muslims. When Muslim hate crimes - on a per capita basis - exceed those against Jews, perhaps there will come a day when an "Islamaphobia" motion might deserve some discussion. As you say - context is everything.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Centerpiece

[Michael Hardner]

32 minutes ago, Centerpiece said:

1.  Canadians are proving to be exceptionally tolerant in a world that is tarnished with heinous acts perpetrated by those who claim to be adherents of Islam.

2. Let's not lose track that in 2016, we had 139 reported "hate crimes" against a population of over one million Muslims.

3. When Muslim hate crimes - on a per capita basis - exceed those against Jews, perhaps there will come a day when an "Islamaphobia" motion might deserve some discussion.  

1.  I disagree completely.  There is now a body of anti-Muslim press happening to feed an appetite for anti-social communication.

2. Or that we had, in 2017, a massacre of Muslims in a mosque ?  

3. What a horrible metric.  Effectively, you are setting the abuse of Jews as a standard by which hate is measured.  How flippantly awful and cynical.  

[Guest]

59 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. Hmmm... because we are not babies ?  Because people who promote racial lies do so knowingly, or at least out of extreme ignorance with the knowledge that doing so is prohibited.  

2. On a certain scale it becomes a problem for all of us.  This is pretty much elementary stuff.  I can find a bunch of gullible idiots, hone down the group until I find the most violent and gullible one, then lie about you to this person and get them to take you out.  If you have a newspaper or a website with an audience of 100K, it's pretty much guaranteed that you have a handful of people like that.

3. You don't have to know much, maybe just a wiki page of early/mid 20th century history ?

 

Yeah, that doesn't actually tell me anything.  Maybe your biases.

Are you actually saying we should all shut up in case a gullible idiot is listening in?

 

[DogOnPorch]

10 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. Or that we had, in 2017, a massacre of Muslims in a mosque ? 

 

Did we ever find-out why the shooters....errr...lone deranged Trump supporter...yelled Allahu Akbar before opening fire...according to witnesses?

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

1. Yeah, that doesn't actually tell me anything.  Maybe your biases.

2. Are you actually saying we should all shut up in case a gullible idiot is listening in?

 

1. What bias ?  Bias from preventing mob violence ?

2. If you're saying "the Jews are evil and should be killed" then yes you should shut up.

Edited August 3, 2018 by Michael Hardner

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

1. What bias ?  Bias from preventing mob violence ?

2. If you're saying "the Jews are evil and should be killed" then yes you should shut up.

Well duh!

If that's your line in the sand then we have no disagreement at all.

 

Edit>  Both lines in response to 2.  Mobs are not my responsibility.

Edited August 3, 2018 by bcsapper

[OftenWrong]

On 8/1/2018 at 7:11 PM, Michael Hardner said:

I don't think you really believe that the religion causes people to be violent.  If I became Muslim do you think I would become violent ?  I don't think so.

Of course, because you were likely born and raised here, where Canadian values of tolerance and peaceful coexistence have been instilled in you since birth. Our environment shapes us.

[eyeball]

10 hours ago, DogOnPorch said:

You're free to experiment with heroin and other opiates. I'm not going to stop you.

OTOH you should probably lay off the LSD.