Genius Doug Ford Abolishes Cap-n-Trade... Brings in Carbon Tax!

[H10]

So Doug Ford's plan to opt out of Cap-N-Trade which would cost the consumer nothing, only the large companies trading the carbon credits, will now force the feds hand into forcing Ontario into the carbon tax, which will tax everything.    This is what happens when you have no plan.  Doug, get yourself together, we already got downgraded by investors because you have no plan and investors don't trust your gimmicks.  Stop the gravy train is not a plan.

[bush_cheney2004]

Actually, Moody's downgraded Ontario because of Wynne's policies, not Doug Ford:

Quote

TORONTO — A key ratings agency has downgraded its outlook on Ontario’s finances to “negative” from “stable” in light of the Liberal government’s plan to run six consecutive multibillion-dollar deficits.

http://lfpress.com/news/economy/ontario-government-financial-outlook-changed-to-negative-moodys/wcm/3bf1d405-1ebf-44ee-914d-8edfacfc6b2a

[cannuck]

You are assuming the Doug Ford would be as stupid as Wynne and simply sign on to something as idiotic and economically destructive as cap and trade (BTW: note that this handout to rape the economy for billions a year came from the left, not the conservatives - so WHO exactly is enabling the 1%????).  Note that the only other Premier in Canada with any balls will NOT allow carbon tax in SK.

[Centerpiece]

4 hours ago, H10 said:

So Doug Ford's plan to opt out of Cap-N-Trade which would cost the consumer nothing, only the large companies trading the carbon credits, will now force the feds hand into forcing Ontario into the carbon tax, which will tax everything.    This is what happens when you have no plan.  Doug, get yourself together, we already got downgraded by investors because you have no plan and investors don't trust your gimmicks.  Stop the gravy train is not a plan.

One could say the US doesn't have a plan - yet they arguably lead the entire world in reducing their emissions - in spite of Obama's boast that his administration built enough pipelines to more than circle the globe. Most of their reduction comes from converting oil to natural gas through shale mining. Canada could help global reductions by replacing Chinese coal power with our oil and gas - but of course the eco-nuts will have nothing to do with that.....so our pipelines never get built and global emissions keep rising. I'll settle for that US type of "non-plan" over government-sponsored tax grabs any day. By the way, the only reason Quebec is a willing partner in the Cap and Trade charade is that the vast majority of their energy consumption is clean hydro - more of a geographic bonus - so they stand to have a windfall profit through the sale of credits.

If Trudeau wants to impose a carbon tax against the wishes of Ontarians - he does so at his electoral peril. And yes - please stop the gravy train.

Link: https://www.forbes.com/sites/rrapier/2017/10/24/yes-the-u-s-leads-all-countries-in-reducing-carbon-emissions/#4b3ddb073535

Edited June 17, 2018 by Centerpiece

[AngusThermopyle]

So Doug Ford's plan to opt out of Cap-N-Trade which would cost the consumer nothing, only the large companies trading the carbon credits, will now force the feds hand into forcing Ontario into the carbon tax, which will tax everything.    This is what happens when you have no plan.  Doug, get yourself together, we already got downgraded by investors because you have no plan and investors don't trust your gimmicks.  Stop the gravy train is not a plan.

 

This has to be either one of the most dishonest posts, or the most misinformed that has ever been posted here.

First point. Cap and Trade does cost the average person. Do you think corporations are just going to eat the cost? No, they pass it on to the consumer, standard practise.

Next point. Yes a Carbon tax will raise the price of everything and Ford has said he'll fight it. The case for a Carbon Tax isn't the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

Next point. We were downgraded because of Wynne, not Ford. That's a fact, deny it if you want but you'll just be making yourself look even more foolish.

So congratulations. You managed to get every point you raised wrong in a spectacular fashion.

[turningrite]

16 hours ago, H10 said:

So Doug Ford's plan to opt out of Cap-N-Trade which would cost the consumer nothing, only the large companies trading the carbon credits, will now force the feds hand into forcing Ontario into the carbon tax, which will tax everything.    This is what happens when you have no plan.  Doug, get yourself together, we already got downgraded by investors because you have no plan and investors don't trust your gimmicks.  Stop the gravy train is not a plan.

The federal government could force a carbon tax on Ontario or on any other province that resists its project. But with Ford's party in power in Ontario and like-minded governments either in place or likely to be elected in the foreseeable future in other provinces, Ottawa will be taking a big risk if it forces this issue. Federal Conservatives are trying to put the Libs on the spot by insisting they reveal the actual costs Canadians will pay as a result of a carbon tax and recent polling during the provincial election suggests that Ontarians view the carbon tax as another tax grab. Reportedly, Ford's Conservatives are already planning a court challenge against the federal tax that most believe will be lost, but, if the intent is to make the Libs own the policy as well as the political consequences for implementing it, the strategy may well be effective. The risk here is the Trudeau government's, not Ford's. A federal election looms in 2019.

Edited June 18, 2018 by turningrite

[betsy]

23 hours ago, H10 said:

So Doug Ford's plan to opt out of Cap-N-Trade which would cost the consumer nothing, only the large companies trading the carbon credits, will now force the feds hand into forcing Ontario into the carbon tax, which will tax everything.  

What leftist propaganda site did you get that rubbish from?

 

This means Doug Ford isn't with Justin Trudeau on this.  Doug Ford is actually forcing Trudeau........... to a showdown!

 

With Trudeau's NAFTA headache, pipeline, and the looming trade wars......do you think Trudeau will stick out his neck farther by going against strong majority of Canadians?  That will be the loftiest height of his arrogance!

 

POLL: Only 13% agree with Trudeau on pricing carbon

http://brianlilley.com/poll-only-13-agree-with-trudeau-on-pricing-carbon/

 

 

 

Quote

 

Asking Canadians something as simple as “would you be willing to pay $10 more for a tank of gas?” or “would you be willing to have the cost of groceries rise by 30 per cent?” would go a long way to illuminating what kind of “action” Canadians want governments to take.

Of course, carbon-tax proponents deliberately avoid doing this for the same reason they prefer to use the term “carbon pricing” instead of calling it by a far more understandable term: a carbon tax.

 

http://business.financialpost.com/opinion/canadians-might-be-okay-with-carbon-taxes-until-they-see-the-price

 

 

tax......tax......tax......tax.......tax.......that's the Trudeau-platform, in a nutshell.

Edited June 18, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

23 hours ago, H10 said:

So Doug Ford's plan to opt out of Cap-N-Trade which would cost the consumer nothing, only the large companies trading the carbon credits, will now force the feds hand into forcing Ontario into the carbon tax, which will tax everything.    This is what happens when you have no plan.  Doug, get yourself together, we already got downgraded by investors because you have no plan and investors don't trust your gimmicks.  Stop the gravy train is not a plan.

 

Hahahaha

 

Quote

 

Who would win if Trudeau battled Ford over carbon tax?

 

But those who think Justin Trudeau would love to wage a federal election with Doug Ford as the effective opposition should think again.

No federal Liberal party would willingly fight a Conservative Ontario government as well as the federal Conservatives in an election campaign. Those who claim Ontario voters strategically choose to have opposing parties in Ottawa and at Queen’s Park have never produced evidence of such intent.

For the moment, all the Grits can do is hope and pray that the polls shift, and that Mr. Ford does not become premier of a majority Ontario government in June. Because if he does, things could get very messy.

 

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/politics/article-who-would-win-if-trudeau-battled-ford-over-carbon-tax/

 

 

Well.....Ford did get his STRONG Majority!   Justin, your boogeyman is here.

Edited June 18, 2018 by betsy

[H10]

On 6/17/2018 at 7:02 AM, bush_cheney2004 said:

Actually, Moody's downgraded Ontario because of Wynne's policies, not Doug Ford:

http://lfpress.com/news/economy/ontario-government-financial-outlook-changed-to-negative-moodys/wcm/3bf1d405-1ebf-44ee-914d-8edfacfc6b2a

Untrue, Wynne eliminated the deficit and is out of office now, it was because Doug Ford refused to put out a balanced budget.

[H10]

On 6/17/2018 at 10:02 AM, cannuck said:

You are assuming the Doug Ford would be as stupid as Wynne and simply sign on to something as idiotic and economically destructive as cap and trade (BTW: note that this handout to rape the economy for billions a year came from the left, not the conservatives - so WHO exactly is enabling the 1%????).  Note that the only other Premier in Canada with any balls will NOT allow carbon tax in SK.

Except that by abolishing this means the 1% is exempt from cap n trade and now we have to pay a carbon tax thanks to ford.

[H10]

21 hours ago, AngusThermopyle said:

So Doug Ford's plan to opt out of Cap-N-Trade which would cost the consumer nothing, only the large companies trading the carbon credits, will now force the feds hand into forcing Ontario into the carbon tax, which will tax everything.    This is what happens when you have no plan.  Doug, get yourself together, we already got downgraded by investors because you have no plan and investors don't trust your gimmicks.  Stop the gravy train is not a plan.

 

This has to be either one of the most dishonest posts, or the most misinformed that has ever been posted here.

First point. Cap and Trade does cost the average person. Do you think corporations are just going to eat the cost? No, they pass it on to the consumer, standard practise.

Next point. Yes a Carbon tax will raise the price of everything and Ford has said he'll fight it. The case for a Carbon Tax isn't the slam dunk you seem to think it is.

Next point. We were downgraded because of Wynne, not Ford. That's a fact, deny it if you want but you'll just be making yourself look even more foolish.

So congratulations. You managed to get every point you raised wrong in a spectacular fashion.

So now instead of corporations absorbing some cost, the consumers can just be forced to absorb the cost through taxes, whose side are you on again?  The carbon tax is a slam dunk according to every constitutional lawyer with credibility.  We were downgraded because ford had no plan.

[bush_cheney2004]

8 minutes ago, H10 said:

Untrue, Wynne eliminated the deficit and is out of office now, it was because Doug Ford refused to put out a balanced budget.

 

Sorry, but I will believe Moody's before I believe you:

Quote

...Moody's downgraded its outlook on Ontario's finances to "negative" from "stable" following the release of the Liberal government's budget, which featured a $6.7-billion deficit in 2018-2019, followed by five consecutive multibillion-dollar deficits.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/ontario-election-2018/moody-s-downgrades-ontario-s-rating-doug-ford-promises-corporate-tax-cut-1.3890805

 

[H10]

22 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sorry, but I will believe Moody's before I believe you:

 

Moody's did an additional downgrade in June.

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, H10 said:

Moody's did an additional downgrade in June.

 

So ?    Ford is not the premier yet.    Kathleen Wynne hosed things up pretty bad.

[Centerpiece]

3 hours ago, H10 said:

Moody's did an additional downgrade in June.

Ford is still only Premier Designate - but could you please provide a link to this additional downgrade? I can't find any record of it -  and if they did, that's not good..It means Wynne put us further in the hole than anyone thought. The link would be appreciated. Thanks.

[H10]

11 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

So ?    Ford is not the premier yet.    Kathleen Wynne hosed things up pretty bad.

Sure Wynne made mistakes, but Ford is MAKING IT WORSE.

"

But it’s partly on Ford, who ran on promises to spend money and cut taxes and swore he’ll balance the budget with efficiencies he wouldn’t spell out. Fitch noticed.

“The willingness to exercise fiscal restraint and build a higher margin of fiscal flexibility in advance of an eventual economic slowdown is uncertain under incoming leadership and the province will remain challenged by an elevated debt burden,” the agency’s explanation for the warning says."

 

[H10]

8 hours ago, Centerpiece said:

Ford is still only Premier Designate - but could you please provide a link to this additional downgrade? I can't find any record of it -  and if they did, that's not good..It means Wynne put us further in the hole than anyone thought. The link would be appreciated. Thanks.

Above you.  They did the downgrade because they viewed it as Ford will continue to run large deficits (ie continue liberal policies).

[Michael Hardner]

1 hour ago, H10 said:

Above you.  They did the downgrade because they viewed it as Ford will continue to run large deficits (ie continue liberal policies).

Ummmm.  Don't get me wrong, I would like this to be true but I would expect a 'wait and see' response.  Do you have a cite on this please ?

[Centerpiece]

12 hours ago, H10 said:

Above you.  They did the downgrade because they viewed it as Ford will continue to run large deficits (ie continue liberal policies).

As I said - it's important to provide a link. Your claim of a second credit downgrade is important to Ontario - and taxpayers. The excerpt you provided - wherever it came from - only refers to a "warning". A warning is not a downgrade. It would actually be prudent to warn the incoming administration not to carry on the Wynne Deficit/Debt fiasco. Until you provide a credible link - as I said, I've not heard of this revelation.

[ironstone]

On ‎6‎/‎18‎/‎2018 at 6:45 PM, H10 said:

Except that by abolishing this means the 1% is exempt from cap n trade and now we have to pay a carbon tax thanks to ford.

Cap and trade IS a carbon tax! How on earth can you not understand that?If there was an initial cost to emitters(many of them received free credits to start with)they would have passed on or just added more cost to consumers.Companies don't pay....we pay.

http://torontosun.com/opinion/columnists/goldstein-wynnes-carbon-scheme-deserved-to-die

[Centerpiece]

14 hours ago, H10 said:

Above you.  They did the downgrade because they viewed it as Ford will continue to run large deficits (ie continue liberal policies).

OK - don't get too stressed. As I suspected, you've run off half-cocked again. It was a warning - not a downgrade of credit.......and if you are as concerned as your accusation implied, you should get behind the new administration to help get our books in order. Point of order - it's not a good idea to so overtly misrepresent things - Fake News is not welcome here.

Quote

 

If cutting taxes causes the economy to roar, that’ll help with the second big challenge: getting Ontario’s finances in order.

A major bond-rating agency, Fitch, put a negative outlook on Ontario’s credit rating at the end of last week. This isn’t the same as a downgrade, but it signals that Fitch thinks a downgrade is in the offing.

This is mostly on the Liberals, whose finances the Tories are inheriting: Fitch doesn’t like the last budget’s plan to borrow $6.7 billion this year and keep borrowing every year into the mid-2020s. The Liberals balanced the budget, more or less, and then they threw that work away.

But it’s partly on Ford, who ran on promises to spend money and cut taxes and swore he’ll balance the budget with efficiencies he wouldn’t spell out. Fitch noticed.

 

Link: http://ottawacitizen.com/news/local-news/reevely-delighted-tories-celebrate-at-queens-park-but-trouble-is-waiting

Edited June 20, 2018 by Centerpiece

[OftenWrong]

15 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ummmm.  Don't get me wrong, I would like this to be true but I would expect a 'wait and see' response.  Do you have a cite on this please ?

You would like to see Ontario downgraded for no reason? There is no cite, it never happened.

[Michael Hardner]

4 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

You would like to see Ontario downgraded for no reason? There is no cite, it never happened.

I probably agree with you, but I generally give someone 24 hours to provide a cite.

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I probably agree with you, but I generally give someone 24 hours to provide a cite.

Request for a cite was already made:

On 6/19/2018 at 9:19 PM, Centerpiece said:

Ford is still only Premier Designate - but could you please provide a link to this additional downgrade? I can't find any record of it -  and if they did, that's not good..It means Wynne put us further in the hole than anyone thought. The link would be appreciated. Thanks.

Just curious, why did you say you would like this to be true? 

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

1) Request for a cite was already made:

2) Just curious, why did you say you would like this to be true? 

1) Ah, so it is.  And there was a response but it makes no sense to me, so AFAIK it is bullshit.

2) Two reasons: One, I would like it if bond rating services held political promises in check and two... I am not on an even keel with this new populism stuff.  That said, DoFo hasn't said anything surprisingly outrageously stupid yet, and although it is short time that's the new bar now.