August1991 Posted February 4, 2018 Report Posted February 4, 2018 First, I'm waiting for a better name for this "scandal". Second, I'm astonished at the great divide in America: many people view this memo so differently. Some claim that it shows deep corruption/bias within the federal bureaucracy, others claim that it is a "nothingburger", an attempt to deflect. Many Americans now seem to perceive their federal government in two different ways. Third, to take a side: the FBI, the CIA, the DIA or anyone else attached to a sitting President should not be spying on a candidate for President. For whatever reason. Full stop. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 4, 2018 Report Posted February 4, 2018 Agreed...scandal is not accurate...fully expect "Memogate" to be adopted by historians. The divide and outrage is more likely just additional political theatre, as Democrats found themselves on the opposite side of things in years past. Regardless of what happens with Mueller's investigation, Congress should take this opportunity to review DOJ, FBI, and FISC/FISA practices and abuses of power for surveillance of Americans by their own government. Just get the NSA or Five Eyes to do it ! Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
OftenWrong Posted February 4, 2018 Report Posted February 4, 2018 I would imagine that any serious contender for the White House would have to be thoroughly investigated. Quote
?Impact Posted February 4, 2018 Report Posted February 4, 2018 16 hours ago, August1991 said: Third, to take a side: the FBI, the CIA, the DIA or anyone else attached to a sitting President should not be spying on a candidate for President. For whatever reason. Full stop. Except of course nobody did spy on the candidate, that is a lie that the Donald keeps telling to his followers but there is not a single nanogram of truth to it. Quote
August1991 Posted February 6, 2018 Author Report Posted February 6, 2018 (edited) On 2/4/2018 at 4:32 PM, ?Impact said: Except of course nobody did spy on the candidate, that is a lie that the Donald keeps telling to his followers but there is not a single nanogram of truth to it. Disagree, strongly. The FBI tapped/intercepted/listened to all conversations of Carter Page - an American who happened to be working in Trump's campaign. IOW, a sitting president had access to an opponent's private conversations. ===== The Democrats do not understand this issue. In Canada, very few get it. At most, we have a clueless son of a PM who got it. Edited February 6, 2018 by August1991 Quote
?Impact Posted February 6, 2018 Report Posted February 6, 2018 1 hour ago, August1991 said: Carter Page - an American who happened to be working in Trump's campaign Carter Page has a long history of working with the Russians, long before he worked for Trump. The spying was on that Russian traitor, not Trump. If Trump is dumb enough to employ a Russian, then that is on him. Who said that the President, who was not even running, even accessed the Russian traitors conversations? Quote
Argus Posted February 6, 2018 Report Posted February 6, 2018 On 2/4/2018 at 12:30 AM, August1991 said: Third, to take a side: the FBI, the CIA, the DIA or anyone else attached to a sitting President should not be spying on a candidate for President. For whatever reason. Full stop. Even if there's information he's a front for Russian interests? I highly disagree. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Boges Posted February 7, 2018 Report Posted February 7, 2018 I think the people who are outraged didn't even read the memo. The final point is that the Russia Investigation started when George Papadopoulos bragged about a meeting with a Russian offical. The same George Papadopoulos who later pleaded guilty for lying to the FBI. Quote The Papadopoulos information triggered the opening of an FBI counterintelligence investigation in late July 2016 by FBI agent Pete Strzok. The spin is that this Russia Investigation is a Witch Hunt even though most involved are actually Republicans. Bill Maher said it best. Of course the FBI is biased, they're biased against criminals! (paraphrased) There's also a Democratic rebuttal to this Memo. Will that get released? It's an odd world where partisan opinion pieces are used as gospel truth by interested parties. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 7, 2018 Report Posted February 7, 2018 33 minutes ago, Boges said: ...There's also a Democratic rebuttal to this Memo. Will that get released? It's an odd world where partisan opinion pieces are used as gospel truth by interested parties. That's what partisan politics is, however: Republican committee members voted to release both memos...Democrat members only voted to release their rebuttal memo. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Cum Laude Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 On 2/3/2018 at 11:30 PM, August1991 said: First, I'm waiting for a better name for this "scandal". Second, I'm astonished at the great divide in America: many people view this memo so differently. Some claim that it shows deep corruption/bias within the federal bureaucracy, others claim that it is a "nothingburger", an attempt to deflect. Many Americans now seem to perceive their federal government in two different ways. Third, to take a side: the FBI, the CIA, the DIA or anyone else attached to a sitting President should not be spying on a candidate for President. For whatever reason. Full stop. Terms like liberal left and conservative right have no meaning. Hitler is called Far Right, when in actuality he was a National “Socialist.” Stalin is considered a communist so is called Far Left. Yet, wasn’t he, (unlike the original commies of the Russian Revolution), also a National Socialist, since he believed in “Socialism in One Country” instead of worldwide communist revolution? Perhaps it would have been in their best interests to stick to their Non-Aggression Pact, and realize that Western Corporate Global Expansion, based on usury and the subjugation of the masses into endless debt, was their real enemy. Quote
August1991 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Report Posted February 8, 2018 45 minutes ago, Cum Laude said: Terms like liberal left and conservative right have no meaning. Hitler is called Far Right, when in actuality he was a National “Socialist.” Stalin is considered a communist so is called Far Left. Yet, wasn’t he, (unlike the original commies of the Russian Revolution), also a National Socialist, since he believed in “Socialism in One Country” instead of worldwide communist revolution? Perhaps it would have been in their best interests to stick to their Non-Aggression Pact, and realize that Western Corporate Global Expansion, based on usury and the subjugation of the masses into endless debt, was their real enemy. I tend to agree, Cum Laude - but you miss a broader point of life. (Individuals often choose teams.) Anyway, I resurrected an old thread (Political Test) with a link to a neat series of questions. I suggest that you do the test, then post your score as I and many other posters to this forum have done. Quote
Cum Laude Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 21 minutes ago, August1991 said: I tend to agree, Cum Laude - but you miss a broader point of life. (Individuals often choose teams.) Anyway, I resurrected an old thread (Political Test) with a link to a neat series of questions. I suggest that you do the test, then post your score as I and many other posters to this forum have done. Often, but not always. I pride myself on being a lone wolf. To each his or her own I guess. Quote
August1991 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Report Posted February 8, 2018 On 2/6/2018 at 4:58 PM, Argus said: Even if there's information he's a front for Russian interests? I highly disagree. "Information"? Argus, if I understand your post clearly, do you believe that Donald Trump is a front for Russian interests? On what basis do you or anyone claim that anyone is a "front for Russian interests"? Heck, do you believe that the Russian government (Vladimir Putin - to be precise) influenced or altered the results of the US presidential election in 2016? That's laughable. ======= The irony here is that there is a long series of Americans (eg. Arthur Miller, Sinclair Lewis, Woody Allen) who decried claims of a Soviet front in America - when there was one! Venona Project Quote
Omni Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 5 minutes ago, August1991 said: Heck, do you believe that the Russian government (Vladimir Putin - to be precise) influenced or altered the results of the US presidential election in 2016? Sorry to inform you but every single US intelligence organization has shown that the Russians at least attempted to influence the 2016 election. Quote
August1991 Posted February 8, 2018 Author Report Posted February 8, 2018 2 minutes ago, Omni said: Sorry to inform you but every single US intelligence organization has shown that the Russians at least attempted to influence the 2016 election. About 130 million people voted in the US election in November 2016. Omni, God knows how each one of those 130 million people arrived at a decision. As it happens, about 66 million chose Rodham-Clinton. About 63 million chose Trump. Influence? My own PM tries to influence opinion in America. But to claim that Putin/Russia decided the result among these millions of people is, well, absurd. Quote
Omni Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 3 minutes ago, August1991 said: About 130 million people voted in the US election in November 2016. Omni, God knows how each one of those 130 million people arrived at a decision. As it happens, about 66 million chose Rodham-Clinton. About 63 million chose Trump. Influence? My own PM tries to influence opinion in America. But to claim that Putin/Russia decided the result among these millions of people is, well, absurd. Um, no one has said they decided the result. What has been proven is that they tried to. I don't blame any democratic country for getting a little upset about and looking into that kind of activity. I think what you are really getting upset about is that you want to protect Trump from the collusion issue. We'll see when Mueller is done hopefully. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 8 minutes ago, August1991 said: ...Influence? My own PM tries to influence opinion in America. But to claim that Putin/Russia decided the result among these millions of people is, well, absurd. Agreed...we even busted at least one Canadian illegal voting in the election...did not change the outcome. Trudeau is back in the U.S. for the 15th time trying to influence my government. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Omni Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 9 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Agreed...we even busted at least one Canadian illegal voting in the election...did not change the outcome. Trudeau is back in the U.S. for the 15th time trying to influence my government. Gawd last I heard you were around three million. Reality catch up did it? Quote
Michael Hardner Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 8 hours ago, August1991 said: Heck, do you believe that the Russian government (Vladimir Putin - to be precise) influenced or altered the results of the US presidential election in 2016? That's laughable. That was statement one. 8 hours ago, August1991 said: But to claim that Putin/Russia decided the result among these millions of people is, well, absurd. And statement two. Observe the different words used: "influenced or altered" - laughable, "decided" - absurd. It is not laughable, in fact its viable that a corruptable billionaire with no inkling he would win the election would engage with nefarious groups. This question is being investigated by people more intelligent than you or I right now. You are just short of being an intellectual, Auguste. You have a great imagination but just need to fix your careless vocabulary. Cheers. Quote Click to learn why Climate Change is caused by HUMANS Michael Hardner
Argus Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 13 hours ago, August1991 said: "Information"? Argus, if I understand your post clearly, do you believe that Donald Trump is a front for Russian interests? You don't understand my point. If the FBI has information that a candidate or people working around the candidate are working with a hostile foreign power it has the right and duty to investigate. They did and so they did. 13 hours ago, August1991 said: Heck, do you believe that the Russian government (Vladimir Putin - to be precise) influenced or altered the results of the US presidential election in 2016? That's laughable. Please let us know what information sources you have which contradicts the conclusions of every single western intelligence agency. Clearly you are privy to deep, hidden sources of secrete information of which the rest of the world knows nothing. Let us in on it. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 13 hours ago, August1991 said: About 130 million people voted in the US election in November 2016. Omni, God knows how each one of those 130 million people arrived at a decision. As it happens, about 66 million chose Rodham-Clinton. About 63 million chose Trump. Influence? My own PM tries to influence opinion in America. But to claim that Putin/Russia decided the result among these millions of people is, well, absurd. Why? August, do you know anything at all about how elections work? I mean, have you ever voted? Ever been involved in an election at any level? Because you write as someone who has offhandedly heard about such things but has never actually bothered to inform himself of the mechanics involved. Here is a hint for you. You don't need to influence hundreds of millions or even tens of millions or even millions of people. You only need to influence a few tens of thousands in a handful of swing states. Or, if you can hack into the voting computer - something the Russians have been putting considerable effort into - you only need to change a tiny percentage of the overall vote, in those handful of swing states. Every American intelligence agency agrees the Russians are trying most determinedly to do such things. The US government, however has done precisely nothing in terms of taking precautions, even the most elementary precautions, against such a thing happening in upcoming elections. Why? Because Trump doesn't want them to. Why? Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Hal 9000 Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 (edited) Anyone who had even the smallest forum weighed in on the US election. You cant say that Russia had anymore influence on the election than any (insert European union member here) foreign leader, including Canada's PM. Every foreign media weighed in, every world leader, every NGO and every activist group weighed in openly on behalf of Hillary Clinton...and against Donald Trump. Who cares if Russia placed a few Facebook ads? How much influence did Merkel or May have? The DNC/Clintons were paying people to go on social media and beat down Trump supporters - who cares, that's the new game, that's the social media age. Even today, foreign entities are still meddling in USA politics - us included. 2 reasons why Hillary lost: 1) She lost the social media battle. Trump was talking straight up to Americans, while Hillary was talking down to them and 2) Polls had her ahead in nearly every state so instead of securing her strongholds, she went into Trump territory in an effort to run the table (so to speak) and spread herself too thin. There are more smaller reasons, but It's really that simple. Hillary lost because of arrogance. Edited February 8, 2018 by Hal 9000 Quote The trouble with our liberal friends is not that they're ignorant; it's just that they know so much that isn't so. - Ronald Reagan I have said that the Western world is just as violent as the Islamic world - Dialamah Europe seems to excel at fooling people to immigrate there from the ME only to chew them up and spit them back. - Eyeball Unfortunately our policies have contributed to retarding and limiting their (Muslim's) society's natural progression towards the same enlightened state we take for granted. - Eyeball
Omni Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 1 hour ago, Hal 9000 said: Anyone who had even the smallest forum weighed in on the US election. You cant say that Russia had anymore influence on the election than any (insert European union member here) foreign leader, including Canada's PM. Every foreign media weighed in, every world leader, every NGO and every activist group weighed in openly on behalf of Hillary Clinton...and against Donald Trump. Who cares if Russia placed a few Facebook ads? How much influence did Merkel or May have? The DNC/Clintons were paying people to go on social media and beat down Trump supporters - who cares, that's the new game, that's the social media age. Even today, foreign entities are still meddling in USA politics - us included. 2 reasons why Hillary lost: 1) She lost the social media battle. Trump was talking straight up to Americans, while Hillary was talking down to them and 2) Polls had her ahead in nearly every state so instead of securing her strongholds, she went into Trump territory in an effort to run the table (so to speak) and spread herself too thin. There are more smaller reasons, but It's really that simple. Hillary lost because of arrogance. Um the Russians didn't place a few emails on facebook, they hacked into the DNC and released thousands of private emails. I think I'll take the proof from organizations like the CIA, FBI, NSA, etc. on that. A little different than your attempt to minimize that aspect. Foreign media supporting one candidate or the other is not nearly the same thing. And how can you say Trump "talked straight" when he has either lied or contradicted himself continuously. You are correct on one item though, Hillary did overreach and assumed she could depend on certain areas for support she thought were in the bag. And of course if not for the gerrymandered EC she would have won by ~3 million of the pop. vote. Quote
bush_cheney2004 Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 Canadian nationals were all over the U.S. federal election, as volunteers on the ground and/or financial contributions....overwhelmingly for the Democrats/Clinton. It got so bad, Bernie Sanders had to refund money back to the Canadians who couldn't prove U.S. citizenship. Quote ...The Federal Election Commission's database shows candidates, particularly former Democratic presidential contender Bernie Sanders, have refunded more than $200,000 in contributions to donors living in Canada as they hadn't proved they were Americans. ....the U.S. Federal Election Commission (FEC) warned the Sanders campaign it risked violating U.S. election laws by accepting contributions from non-Americans. http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/canada-trump-clinton-u-s-election-1.3837993 Canadians....Russians....makes no difference...they all want a piece of U.S. politics / policy. Quote Economics trumps Virtue.
Omni Posted February 8, 2018 Report Posted February 8, 2018 20 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Canadians....Russians....makes no difference...they all want a piece of U.S. politics / policy. And we all know how the Russians got their piece. I guess they could have as easily bought it through super pacs but they decided to go a more hi-tech way. Quote
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