Who should the Ontario PCs pick as their next leadership candidate

[capricorn]

39 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

Especially if you don't like 'elites', which I guess does DEFINITELY NOT MEAN guys who inherited lots of money and political connections from their dad.

Oh, so you equate "elites" with people who have inherited money or presumable have a lot of money. In the context of politics that's not how I would define "elite". I define political "elites" as a group that presumes they are the defacto leaders of a group of people and make decisions for them. Elites do not want to confer power on grassroots because they want to run the show the way they see fit and to hell with the little guy. In that manner the elites can build a structure which resembles them and protects their interests. A politician may have a lot of money but may still recognize the value of the contribution that the grassroots can bring to the process.

[capricorn]

A must read by Anthony Furey of the Toronto Sun.

Quote

PC insiders tried to keep Ford out – and now he’s storming the barricades

http://torontosun.com/news/local-news/furey-pc-insiders-tried-to-keep-ford-out-and-now-hes-storming-the-barricades

[Michael Hardner]

5 hours ago, capricorn said:

Oh, so you equate "elites" with people who have inherited money or presumable have a lot of money.

Yeah, or whose dad was in politics.  Like that.

 

5 hours ago, capricorn said:

1. In the context of politics that's not how I would define "elite".

2. I define political "elites" as a group that presumes they are the defacto leaders of a group of people and make decisions for them.

3. Elites do not want to confer power on grassroots because they want to run the show the way they see fit and to hell with the little guy.

4. In that manner the elites can build a structure which resembles them and protects their interests. A politician may have a lot of money but may still recognize the value of the contribution that the grassroots can bring to the process.

1. I feel like you're about to define it in some special way to mean people Capricorn doesn't like.

2. It's a good think you have your own language then, and that words don't have to mean things to other people.  This is why I pineapple dog wig my flarg hat.

3. King of like Trump who cuts taxes for billionaires, cuts healthcare then tells the power idiots that he's with them.  Except you believe it.

4. Ford is a low-level pot dealer scumbag who fires up small-brained dingos.  The conservative parties are starting to recognize that these monsters they're creating eventually turn on the scientist.  I can't wait until they expunge them and conservatives get smart again.

[August1991]

13 hours ago, Boges said:

DoFo's thrown his hat in. 

God Help us All. 

Doug Ford will not be leader of Ontario's Conservative Party.

Heck, Doug Ford is no Rob Ford - let alone a Donald Trump.

======

The Ontario PCs have a major modern problem, common to all parliamentary democracies:

1) to survive, a leader needs the support of caucus

2) to become leader (nowadays), a politician needs the support of party members

======

Patrick Brown managed to win 2) but he never managed 1).

Vic Federeli has 1) but I doubt whether he has 2).

[Michael Hardner]

4 hours ago, August1991 said:

 The Ontario PCs have a major modern problem, common to all parliamentary democracies:

1) to survive, a leader needs the support of caucus

2) to become leader (nowadays), a politician needs the support of party members

======

 

You have nailed it.  Somehow, though, people who are ignorant of politics, who are disinterested until their wunderkind populist heroes run for office.... those people decry the 'elites'

Andrew Coyne nails it too:
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-let-those-who-know-best-pick-a-party-leader-thats-the-caucus-not-the-membership

The so-called elites have knowledge and the support of the party members of their ridings.   These are the people who care enough about politics to join the parties.

 

Doug Ford as an anti-elitist is ridiculous.  The PC Party of Ontario was one of the most popular competent machines that ever worked in western democracy, and they need to come back.

[capricorn]

11 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

2. It's a good think you have your own language then, and that words don't have to mean things to other people.  This is why I pineapple dog wig my flarg hat.

Actually, there has been much research done on the relationship of elites with the masses, including "political elites". So I hate to disappoint you that what I wrote is not my own language but has been the subject of many writings.

Quote

SOCIAL AND POLITICAL ELITES

At one level, elites can be defined simply as persons who hold dominant positions in major institutions or are recognized leaders in art, education, business, and other fields of achievement. Such individuals exist in all societies, but beyond this mundane observation, social scientists are interested in why particular individuals attain positions of status and power. Does achievement reflect superior talent, or is it a product of social or cultural advantage? Why are some achievements valued over others? How does the distribution of elite positions in society reflect the particular social structures in which they exist? These questions are the focus of much research on stratification and social inequality.

In the social sciences, the concept of elites refers to a more specific issue as well: the concentration of societal power—especially political power—in the hands of a few. At the heart of theoretical debates and empirical research on elites is the famous assertion of Mosca (1939, p. 50): "In all societies . . . two classes of people appear—a class that rules and a class that is ruled." One can distinguish the conception of "functional elites" in a variety of institutional contexts from that of a "ruling" or "political" elite that in some sense wields societal-level power. Then the key questions concern the existence and nature of this dominant group. Is power over the major institutions of society highly concentrated, or is it broadly dispersed as "pluralists" claim? If a cohesive ruling elite exists, then who is in it and what is the basis of its power? What is the extent of its power in relation to the nonelite "masses"? Does this societal elite exercise power responsibly in the interests of society as a whole, or do elites maximize their own interests against those of subordinate groups?

cont'd  in the link below

http://www.encyclopedia.com/social-sciences/encyclopedias-almanacs-transcripts-and-maps/social-and-political-elites

[Rue]

I am voting for Argus or Godess or if I do LSD and overdose Ghost.

 

[Boges]

Fedeli is out. Macleod is out. 

This is Dofo's party. 

[OftenWrong]

12 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

You have nailed it.  Somehow, though, people who are ignorant of politics, who are disinterested until their wunderkind populist heroes run for office.... those people decry the 'elites'

Andrew Coyne nails it too:
http://nationalpost.com/opinion/andrew-coyne-let-those-who-know-best-pick-a-party-leader-thats-the-caucus-not-the-membership

The so-called elites have knowledge and the support of the party members of their ridings.   These are the people who care enough about politics to join the parties.

 

Doug Ford as an anti-elitist is ridiculous.  The PC Party of Ontario was one of the most popular competent machines that ever worked in western democracy, and they need to come back.

Although I think by and large this is true, and there are plenty of people who know little about politics but vote anyway, I feel there is another element at work here. I can't quite nail down what it is, but something like cynicism. That is what it is in my case, because I am cynical about all politicians including someone like Trump, or the Ford Nation. I can't say it "pleases" me to see them win, or that I have hope for the better, but it feeds my cynicism and somehow satisfies me. I doubt that I am alone. Suspect that many who elected Rob Ford did so because to them it was all a big joke.

[Michael Hardner]

1 minute ago, OftenWrong said:

1. something like cynicism.

2. I can't say it "pleases" me to see them win, or that I have hope for the better, but it feeds my cynicism and somehow satisfies me.

3. I doubt that I am alone. Suspect that many who elected Rob Ford did so because to them it was all a big joke.

1.  Or laziness, disinterest, ignorance

2.  That 'somehow' part ... that bears examination.

3.  I have had the sneaking suspicion that people vote for some of these people for entertainment.  

[OftenWrong]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

2.  That 'somehow' part ... that bears examination.  

Perhaps akin to anarchy stemming from frustration after seeing generations of lying politicos fail and screw up time and again, while the serious social problems continue unaddressed. It is cynical to want to see the system fail, and not something to look forward to, but it stems from a sense of desperation that no fix is possible... except for the wrecking ball.

[Michael Hardner]

27 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Perhaps akin to anarchy stemming from frustration after seeing generations of lying politicos fail and screw up time and again, while the serious social problems continue unaddressed. It is cynical to want to see the system fail, and not something to look forward to, but it stems from a sense of desperation that no fix is possible... except for the wrecking ball.

How many countries have utterly fallen apart in the past two generations ?  Our system works pretty well.  Wanting to see it 'fail' like ... what ... Liberia ?  Do you want anarchy ?  That's what I think people want, sometimes.  

[Argus]

19 hours ago, Boges said:

Fedeli is out. Macleod is out. 

This is Dofo's party. 

Fedeli proves his unfitness for office every day. I would prefer Mulroney or Philips.

[blackbird]

Right now there is an internal struggle going on in the party and allegations by one MLA that Toronto elites are trying to purge members from the membership roles.  He claims that elites are trying to control the party.   He says a group of Toronto elites were responsible for getting Brown out.

Edited January 31, 2018 by blackbird

[Argus]

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

Right now there is an internal struggle going on in the party and allegations by one MLA that Toronto elites are trying to purge members from the membership roles.  He claims that elites are trying to control the party.   He says a group of Toronto elites were responsible for getting Brown out.

Doug Ford is NOT an MLA. He's a former Toronto City councilor and currently unemployed.

Edited January 31, 2018 by Argus

[Boges]

I think DoFo has a day job. Remember Deco Labels? 

This is a shit show though. It's like the PCs don't want to win. Stephen Harper should run for leadership or something. 

 

[?Impact]

14 minutes ago, Boges said:

Stephen Harper should run for leadership or something.

Of the Ontario PCs? Isn't that like having Mike Duffy represent PEI?

 

1 hour ago, blackbird said:

He says a group of Toronto elites were responsible for getting Brown out.

Assuming the allegations are true, I would say that Brown bears 100% of the responsibility. How does that seem to escape the attention of those who claim to have morals?

[blackbird]

37 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Of the Ontario PCs? Isn't that like having Mike Duffy represent PEI?

 

Assuming the allegations are true, I would say that Brown bears 100% of the responsibility. How does that seem to escape the attention of those who claim to have morals?

Maybe.  Just mentioned there is some conflict.  A federal MP claims Brown was ousted in an "inside job" and he claims the elite in the party are trying to purge the party of tens of thousands of members.  I don't know if there is any truth to this, just reported what I read.

[?Impact]

9 minutes ago, blackbird said:

A federal MP claims Brown was ousted in an "inside job" and he claims the elite in the party are trying to purge the party of tens of thousands of members.

Purging membership is a completely different issue. I don't know any of the details here, but the membership should be open to any Canadian citizen residing in Ontario who agree with the party membership qualifications. Now this is pure speculation, but Brown did bring many new members into the party. There have been many instances in the past that party membership (all parties, not just the OPC) has been fraudulent. Could there be some suspicion that those new members were in fact not valid?

Edited January 31, 2018 by ?Impact

[August1991]

 

On 1/30/2018 at 9:59 AM, capricorn said:

Actually, there has been much research done on the relationship of elites with the masses, including "political elites"....

Capricorn, the basic theoretical work was done in the 1700s. The empirical work dates from the 1900s.

The general conclusion is that any change should have both the support of the elite and the general population - "masses", as you describe it.

Top down change is bad; bottom up change is scary; best is top/bottom change. 

=====

I've always liked this quote/phrase:

It is easier to find a new elite than it is to find a new "masses" - to use your term.

Edited February 1, 2018 by August1991

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

Top down change is bad; bottom up change is scary; best is top/bottom change. 

Yes - and as with many things the 'best' is the most difficult to maintain.

 

6 hours ago, August1991 said:

 

It is easier to find a new elite than it is to find a new "masses" - to use your term.

Very insightful.  But slightly off:

There are always people clamouring to be elite, it's true.  What we try to find is a 'public' in the parlance of the fathers of democracy.  Masses are just groups of people.  Publics have a considered interest and actively participate in governance by expressing an opinion to the leaders they choose.

Edited February 1, 2018 by Michael Hardner

[Argus]

17 hours ago, ?Impact said:

Assuming the allegations are true, I would say that Brown bears 100% of the responsibility. How does that seem to escape the attention of those who claim to have morals?

Brown bears the full responsibility for being single and looking for sex? I wonder what the private sex lives of some of the gay men in parliament is like and how that would look under a public microscope. 

[capricorn]

Hooray! Christine Elliott is in. I like that she knows her way around Queens Park. All the better to take the fight to Wynne and bring her down.

[?Impact]

5 hours ago, Argus said:

I wonder what the private sex lives of some of the gay men in parliament is like and how that would look under a public microscope. 

Sexual preference has nothing to do with this. It is about taking advantage of someone in high school when you are 10 years older, or someone who you have a position of authority over.

[Queenmandy85]

I would nominate Enza Anderson. She would bring style to what has traditionally been a colourless party. Put the party back into the PC Party. She is also smarter than most of the caucus.

Edited February 2, 2018 by Queenmandy85