Sh*tholes are created by western society - A history of Haiti

[?Impact]

Donald Trump infamously called Haiti a sh*thole country, does he know how it became that way?

Haiti was a colony of France, and had many black slaves to enrich Napolean's coffers. The majority of sugar and coffee imported into Europe came from Haiti. There was a many years long battle in the 1790's, culminating in Haiti winning independence in 1804. Unlike the US won independence a couple of decades earlier however, the black former slaves of Haiti were punished for gaining their independence; with Europe and the US alike refusing to trade with them. After many decades, the French finally relented and opened trade on the condition that Haiti pay 150 million gold Francs reparations. That took many more decades to pay off, and left Haiti in debt to US bankers who got President Wilson to invade Haiti in 1914 and empty all their gold reserves.

What if Europe punished the US for winning independence the way they beat Haiti into submission, would Trump be president of a sh*thole country? What if the former black slaves were treated as equals to the new America, would their wealth of sugar and coffee allow them to build a strong, vibrant, and world leading economy?

Edited January 17, 2018 by ?Impact

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

What if Europe punished the US for winning independence the way they beat Haiti into submission, would Trump be president of a sh*thole country? What if the former black slaves were treated as equals to the new America, would their wealth of sugar and coffee allow them to build a strong, vibrant, and world leading economy?

 

No, as the U.S. thrived with slavery as part of its economic system well into the 19th century.   Civil rights battles in the U.S. would continue into the 20th century, even as it became a sh*thole superpower and global hegemon.

Haiti has been its own worst enemy (class warfare, corruption, etc.) just as much as any negative foreign impact (France, USA, Canada).   The former black slaves did not even treat themselves as equals.

http://faculty.webster.edu/corbetre/haiti/misctopic/leftover/whypoor.htm

[DogOnPorch]

Haiti's property laws discourage any investment beyond an aid cheque...period.

[taxme]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

Haiti's property laws discourage any investment beyond an aid cheque...period.

There is such a difference in how things are done between the Dominican Republic and Haiti. Tourists go to the DR, and Haiti hardly gets anyone going there. I never see any travel agencies advertising trips to Haiti. I don't think that even the social justice warrior liberals go there. Does the DR have an asylum problem with Haitians running into the DR across the border?  Just wondering. 

I wonder when Trudeau will be writing another cheque to that chit hole country called Haiti anytime soon? Is that one of the reasons why we have the GST?  Hey, you never know.  Chuckle. 

[?Impact]

4 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Haiti has been its own worst enemy (class warfare, corruption, etc.) just as much as any negative foreign impact (France, USA, Canada).

It was a good paper you referenced, worth reading it all. Yes, forced (economic) isolation does tend to promote internal corruption, we see it today as well in countries subject to economic sanctions - a self reinforcing negative feedback loop.

Edited January 18, 2018 by ?Impact

[-1=e^ipi]

9 hours ago, ?Impact said:

 That took many more decades to pay off, and left Haiti in debt to US bankers who got President Wilson to invade Haiti in 1914 and empty all their gold reserves.

To be fair, we've seen countries like South Korea rise from extreme poverty to one of the richest countries in the world in the period after WW2. Haiti, by comparison, has had more time than South Korea.

[H10]

1 hour ago, -1=e^ipi said:

To be fair, we've seen countries like South Korea rise from extreme poverty to one of the richest countries in the world in the period after WW2. Haiti, by comparison, has had more time than South Korea.

The comment is not fair.  South Korea was a receipent of generous targetted aid and trade contracts as part of a broader plan called the point 4 program to develop east asian nations as a counter to a rising communist china.  That is, USA and white monopoly capital sought to strengthen South Korea.  With Haiti, white monopoly capital has actively worked to sabotage the nation into today.  Haiti was invaded and looted by the USA, LITERALLY, US soldiers on the streets of Haiti looting the wealth of locals and they had to "reparations" to France on top of that with threat of further invasions.  Who would invest in a nation where it is constantly under threat of French and US invasion?  Compare that to South Korea with 50,000 US soldiers protecting it.

 

Haiti's problems are not its own, they are created and manufactured by foreign nations bitter about it declaring independence and winning a military victory.  Mainly USA, France and Britain.

[bush_cheney2004]

25 minutes ago, H10 said:

...Haiti's problems are not its own, they are created and manufactured by foreign nations bitter about it declaring independence and winning a military victory.  Mainly USA, France and Britain.

 

Sure...we'll just forget that Canada lead and conspired to plan the overthrow of democratically elected president of Haiti in 2004 (Aristide), or UN troops, or GG Michelle Jean's interference in Haitian politics.

A Very Canadian Coup

[John Prewett]

Europe is now coming down.... may soon be a collection of 'failed states' .......... however,   compare Africa and Europe.    Compare in regard to 'human rights'  ... scientific achievement .. literacy rate ... manufacturing capacity ...  just compare.    Most will agree Europe wins the comparison contest.  Now:  is that due to Europe oppressing Africa ?   Or what ? 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

9 hours ago, ?Impact said:

It was a good paper you referenced, worth reading it all. Yes, forced (economic) isolation does tend to promote internal corruption, we see it today as well in countries subject to economic sanctions - a self reinforcing negative feedback loop.

 

It is interesting to note that original paper was written about 30 years ago....and the author calls Haiti a...."hell-hole":

 

Quote

How did "The Jewel of the Antilles" become the Caribbean's hell-hole?

 

[betsy]

Sh*tholes are created by western society

 

 

Didn't some parts of Africa that were colonized by western nations prosper......... only to become sh*tholes after they've gotten their independence, shooed the foreigners away, and managed their own affairs?

 

Boy, look at Zimbabwe.  It didn't take long for the blood to spill:

 

Quote

 

Zimbabwe's first president after its independence was Canaan Banana in what was originally a mainly ceremonial role as Head of State. Robert Mugabe, leader of the ZANU party, was the country's first Prime Minister and Head of Government.^[53]

Opposition to what was perceived as a Shona takeover immediately erupted around Matabeleland. The Matabele unrest led to what has become known as Gukurahundi (Shona: "the early rain which washes away the chaff before the spring rains").^[54]

 

The Fifth Brigade, a North Korean-trained elite unit that reported directly to the Zimbabwean Prime Minister,^[55] entered Matabeleland and massacred thousands of civilians accused of supporting "dissidents".^[55][56]

Estimates for the number of deaths during the five-year Gukurahundi campaign ranged from 3,750^[57] to 80,000.^{[56] [58]} Thousands of others were tortured in military internment camps

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe

 

 

Hello again!

 

Quote

Zimbabwe opens talks with Britain over return to the Commonwealth

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/zimbabwe-opens-talks-with-britain-over-return-to-the-commonwealth-prseident-mnangagwa-9mb3hb3t0

Edited January 18, 2018 by betsy

[?Impact]

4 hours ago, betsy said:

Didn't some parts of Africa that were colonized by western nations prosper......... only to become sh*tholes after they've gotten their independence, shooed the foreigners away, and managed their own affairs?

I guess that depends on what you mean by prosper. Yes white rulers living a lavish lifestyle on the backs of locals living in poverty is often considered prosperity by whites.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

I guess that depends on what you mean by prosper. Yes white rulers living a lavish lifestyle on the backs of locals living in poverty is often considered prosperity by whites.

Did they have jobs? Did they get to eat? Compare that to Haiti and modern day Zimbabwe.

[DogOnPorch]

6 hours ago, betsy said:

Sh*tholes are created by western society

 

 

Didn't some parts of Africa that were colonized by western nations prosper......... only to become sh*tholes after they've gotten their independence, shooed the foreigners away, and managed their own affairs?

 

Boy, look at Zimbabwe.  It didn't take long for the blood to spill:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe

 

 

Hello again!

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/zimbabwe-opens-talks-with-britain-over-return-to-the-commonwealth-prseident-mnangagwa-9mb3hb3t0

Kill The Boer!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6fzRSE_p1Ys

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by DogOnPorch

[betsy]

3 hours ago, ?Impact said:

I guess that depends on what you mean by prosper. Yes white rulers living a lavish lifestyle on the backs of locals living in poverty is often considered prosperity by whites.

Depends how you want to live I suppose.  Maybe, living in poverty and being under someone like Mugabe is preferable  to you, than having a prospering economy (with jobs) under white folks.

Edited January 18, 2018 by betsy

[betsy]

 

Quote

 

3 hours ago, ?Impact said:

I guess that depends on what you mean by prosper. Yes white rulers living a lavish lifestyle on the backs of locals living in poverty is often considered prosperity by whites.

 

Like this meaning of "prosper."

 

Zimbabwe used to be known as THE BREAD BASKET OF AFRICA!

 

Quote

When Zimbabwe was the bread basket of Africa:

Fascinating pictures show flourishing but divided nation before Robert Mugabe took control and left it impoverished

 

But under Mugabe's leadership, the country's mining and tourism-driven economy has been laid to waste. Hyperinflation has wiped out savings, unemployment is sky-high and economic output has halved since 2000 while seven in ten in the landlocked country of 16million are stuck in poverty.

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5092693/Images-Zimbabwe-Africa-s-bread-basket.html#ixzz54ZFwjb00
 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 18, 2018 by betsy

[GostHacked]

Puerto Rico is sure a shithole after the US decides to bail on it's own citizens.

[Hudson Jones]

It takes generations for countries to get out of the shithole that European colonialist created. There are so many variables involved in the mess.

Look at Iraq for example; What U.S. has done there has pushed Iraq back by generations. Many of the educated and wealthy people escaped Iraq. The economy, culture and whatever system that was in place was destroyed by U.S.' war and the vacuum it created for ISIS to come in to destroy some more.

Nothing worse than people who try to simplify the situation because they're too lazy to look beyond their bigoted and simplified way of looking at how the world works.

 

 

[H10]

12 hours ago, John Prewett said:

Europe is now coming down.... may soon be a collection of 'failed states' .......... however,   compare Africa and Europe.    Compare in regard to 'human rights'  ... scientific achievement .. literacy rate ... manufacturing capacity ...  just compare.    Most will agree Europe wins the comparison contest.  Now:  is that due to Europe oppressing Africa ?   Or what ? 

 

Yes it is due to Europe colonizing, robbing and oppressing Africa. Prior to colonialism, Mali was one of the richest countries on earth, with the most educated populous and the largest and best universities. Then the Europeans and Arabs invaded, robbed and looted the place enslaved the academics and merchants and stole their inventions for their own.

[H10]

2 hours ago, betsy said:

Like this meaning of "prosper."

 

Zimbabwe used to be known as THE BREAD BASKET OF AFRICA!

 

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5092693/Images-Zimbabwe-Africa-s-bread-basket.html#ixzz54ZFwjb00
 

 

 

This is merely anti-Mugabe British propaganda, as the British had hailed Mugabe and his policies after he overthrew their bitter enemy Ian Smith.  The British knighted Mugabe and hailed him as a hero in the 1990s and 1980s.  Zimbabwe however had relied on UN food aid to avert mass starvation as recently as the 1970s and 1960s.  Much worse, while Zimbabwe under apartheid dictatorship was exporting maize, they had also been relying on food aid from the UN.  The claim is also highly questionable as well because the population was much smaller in the 1800s and on top of that global warming had not yet set in drying out the region.  Zimbabwe along with its neoghbours has been experiencing decades long droughts and water shortages and even the white run Cape Town in South Africa is anticipated to run out of water in 30 days.  Part of this stems from destructive practices of European white farmers who had removed retaining walls and permitted the best soil to wash into the sea, reducing agricultural outputs.

 

What is even more laughable, is that the paper claims Zimbabwe was a bread basket, but cannot produce a single image of wheat being farmed in Zimbabwe, yet rather, they show a tobacco field (which is not even edible unless you like vomiting).  This is because tobacco being a cash crop has always been and continues to be favoured over wheat to grow by farmers for its higher price and less water requirements.

 

Even look at the images, the africans are in rags and tatters, and the whites are in expensive suits

 

This looks very much like slavery to be honest

 

This is colonialism, whites get suits, ties, hippos and big industrial buildings, the blacks build all of it, and get to live in a mud hut

No wonder Mugabe did what he did, he was right.

[DogOnPorch]

19 minutes ago, Hudson Jones said:

It takes generations for countries to get out of the shithole that European colonialist created. There are so many variables involved in the mess.

Look at Iraq for example; What U.S. has done there has pushed Iraq back by generations. Many of the educated and wealthy people escaped Iraq. The economy, culture and whatever system that was in place was destroyed by U.S.' war and the vacuum it created for ISIS to come in to destroy some more.

Nothing worse than people who try to simplify the situation because they're too lazy to look beyond their bigoted and simplified way of looking at how the world works.

 

 

 

One thing learned is that Muslims are never responsible for their own situations. It's always somebody else's fault. Always...

[?Impact]

12 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

One thing learned is that Muslims are never responsible for their own situations. It's always somebody else's fault. Always...

I didn`t know Donald Trump was Muslim... I guess we learn something new every day.

[taxme]

13 hours ago, John Prewett said:

Europe is now coming down.... may soon be a collection of 'failed states' .......... however,   compare Africa and Europe.    Compare in regard to 'human rights'  ... scientific achievement .. literacy rate ... manufacturing capacity ...  just compare.    Most will agree Europe wins the comparison contest.  Now:  is that due to Europe oppressing Africa ?   Or what ? 

 

Well, thanks to the EU, it is no wonder Europe is now going down. All those countries did well until their foolish and stupid politicians decided to try and make a one big family Europe out of it. The people in Greece were pretty much living the good life until they joined the EU. After forced austerity kicked in millions lost everything they had. Pretty much all the social services were wiped out also. The EU is nothing more than now controlled by a bunch of nasty globalist elite corporate outfits that saw a chance to rob the people of Europe of everything they pretty much owned. Many European countries now want out. Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic have pretty much told the EU to go to hell. And bringing in all those so-called refugees is what is now killing Europe. Crime is way up in all those European countries that took hundreds of thousands or like in Germany millions where crime was nowhere near what it is today. What Europe does not need is millions of Africans or Arabs who will only lower the standard of living and bring in more crime. Europe is still somewhat great but that is starting to disappear.  

[taxme]

11 hours ago, betsy said:

Sh*tholes are created by western society

 

 

Didn't some parts of Africa that were colonized by western nations prosper......... only to become sh*tholes after they've gotten their independence, shooed the foreigners away, and managed their own affairs?

 

Boy, look at Zimbabwe.  It didn't take long for the blood to spill:

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zimbabwe

 

 

Hello again!

 

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/zimbabwe-opens-talks-with-britain-over-return-to-the-commonwealth-prseident-mnangagwa-9mb3hb3t0

When the Europeans went to South Africa and Rhodesia and started to colonize some African countries many blacks in the neighboring black African countries had their populations running to South Africa and Rhodesia for jobs. Those blacks were not forced to go to SA or Rhodesia but they went there willingly. The blacks were responsible for their own misery in those two countries because there were too many of them going there and not enough work for them all. Sure we can't say that everything that the Europeans did in Africa was all good but then again when a country is conquered by another country, as the old saying goes, to the victors go the spoils. Those two countries became great places to live and want to visit.

Those two countries exported many products overseas when the Europeans ran the place where today those two countries today now import just about everything they need. Since their independence they have done nothing with the place ever since the Europeans lost all control. After SA and Rhodesia got their independence the blood did start to spill. Tribal factions took over. A fact of life in Africa. 

[H10]

8 hours ago, taxme said:

When the Europeans went to South Africa and Rhodesia and started to colonize some African countries many blacks in the neighboring black African countries had their populations running to South Africa and Rhodesia for jobs. Those blacks were not forced to go to SA or Rhodesia but they went there willingly. The blacks were responsible for their own misery in those two countries because there were too many of them going there and not enough work for them all. Sure we can't say that everything that the Europeans did in Africa was all good but then again when a country is conquered by another country, as the old saying goes, to the victors go the spoils. Those two countries became great places to live and want to visit.

Your claim of history is really quiet short sighted.  When the BRITISH were invading and colonizing South Africa and Zimbabwe, the Germans were committing genocide in Namibia against local populations, and the Belgians were doing the same in the Congo, so it is true people were fleeing these nations for opportunities to not get murdered.  Doesn't make the British genocides any better.  The British were happy to have a desperate labor class come into a country where locals refused to work on their own stolen property.  I would not work as a slave in my own house to an invader either.  The entire claim is perverse really.  The British destroy Malawi and Zambia and Kenya worse than Zimbabwe and force people out of one nation into another and you claim people moved willingly?  That's like saying jews who ran away to Russia and the middle east in WW2, deserve anti-semitism because they chose to leave central Europe.

 

8 hours ago, taxme said:

Those two countries exported many products overseas when the Europeans ran the place where today those two countries today now import just about everything they need. Since their independence they have done nothing with the place ever since the Europeans lost all control. After SA and Rhodesia got their independence the blood did start to spill. Tribal factions took over. A fact of life in Africa. 

 

Not really.  The exports were smaller under both apartheid regimes as were the economies.  What was true though was you had a highly exploitative system, which permitted whites in these nations to be among the richest white populations on the planet, because they had a large group of low wage labor slaves, doing work who they got to profit off.  South Africa is quiet developed, and Zimbabwe did quiet well under Mugabe until Anglo sanctions in the late1990s.