GostHacked Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 7 minutes ago, Argus said: As to justification. Israel is the ancient capital of the Jews, but that is not really justification. You might be right as there was a few hundred years between the first and second one. Quote The fact is they did move there, and they were legally given control of the area. I would contest the fact they were legally given control of the area. The Balfour Declaration was not really approved or sanctioned by the Brits. Who legally gave them control? And I guess by that notion, who was denied control?
Argus Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 14 minutes ago, GostHacked said: You might be right as there was a few hundred years between the first and second one. I would contest the fact they were legally given control of the area. The Balfour Declaration was not really approved or sanctioned by the Brits. Who legally gave them control? And I guess by that notion, who was denied control? Resolution 181 of the United Nations. Now, under that resolution Jerusalem wasn't supposed to go to either the Jews or the Muslims, but whatever might have happened will never be known because the Muslims immediately attacked and that was that. 1 "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Altai Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) Turkish TIKA build 320 new homes in Gaza for Palestinians who lose their homes by attacks done by illegal zionist terror organization. Bite your fingers with anger and drop dead with your hatred Edited December 12, 2017 by Altai "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
marcus Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 19 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Then surely you would agree that the wonderfully "racist" system in Canada would be a great solution for Palestine too....you know...since it is so great in Canada. What's next for you? Try to justify slavery because it was done before? "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, marcus said: What's next for you? Try to justify slavery because it was done before? Does Canada have an imperialist reserve system for "aboriginals" or not ? Why are you so uncomfortable with this obvious reality ? Economics trumps Virtue.
marcus Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 4 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: Does Canada have an imperialist reserve system for "aboriginals" or not ? Why are you so uncomfortable with this obvious reality ? There is a lot I am uncomfortable about when it comes to what Canada has done in the past. Of course, some of the remanence still remains. However, what was done in the past and what is being done in Israel now, would not be acceptable in any Western country. Don't pretend otherwise. "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 2 minutes ago, marcus said: There is a lot I am uncomfortable about when it comes to what Canada has done in the past. Of course, some of the remanence still remains. However, what was done in the past and what is being done in Israel now, would not be acceptable in any Western country. Don't pretend otherwise. But it is not in the past...it is entrenched and dominates First Nations people and land on a scale that makes Israel and the occupied territories a tiny incursion by comparison. Canada continues to control and enforce its imperialist legacy (so called "Indian Act") with impunity and, most importantly for this discussion, WITHOUT interference or penalty from other nations. Israel is a far younger nation that has and still faces far more existential threats than Canada. Economics trumps Virtue.
marcus Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said: But it is not in the past...it is entrenched and dominates First Nations people and land on a scale that makes Israel and the occupied territories a tiny incursion by comparison. Canada continues to control and enforce its imperialist legacy (so called "Indian Act") with impunity and, most importantly for this discussion, WITHOUT interference or penalty from other nations. Israel is a far younger nation that has and still faces far more existential threats than Canada. Show me the checkpoints in Canada. Show me the walls that cut into communities in Canada. Show me highways that are non-indigenous only in Canada. Show me carpet bombing of the indigenous in Canada. Show me restriction of movement in Canada. Show me daily burning of fields and crops in Canada. Show me prison time for the indigenous for posting on facebook in Canada. Show me restriction of immigration and emigration for the indigenous in Canada. 1 "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) Show me ... more of your excuses to rationalize the difference. I have already posted the photos of road blocks, massive incarceration rates, residential school litigation, settlements on unceded land, lack of potable water, stolen resources, pollution, sterilizations, etc. etc. It is cognitive dissonance to be a rabid champion for Palestinian rights and sovereignty while living and supporting the past and present state of affairs for "aboriginals" in Canada. At least Israel does not use imperialist labels for Palestinians. Edited December 12, 2017 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
marcus Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 34 minutes ago, marcus said: Show me the checkpoints in Canada. Show me the walls that cut into communities in Canada. Show me highways that are non-indigenous only in Canada. Show me carpet bombing of the indigenous in Canada. Show me restriction of movement in Canada. Show me daily burning of fields and crops in Canada. Show me prison time for the indigenous for posting on facebook in Canada. Show me restriction of immigration and emigration for the indigenous in Canada. You can't. "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 5 minutes ago, marcus said: You can't. I already have....looks like Palestine with taller trees. Edited December 12, 2017 by bush_cheney2004 Economics trumps Virtue.
marcus Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said: I already have....looks like Palestine with taller trees. lol. Sure it does. "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
Rue Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 18 hours ago, Omni said: I assume vaseline must be available there. Not needed. Israelis unlike you are quite clear on where they do not want terrorists situated. You mistake them for you.
Rue Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 17 hours ago, -TSS- said: The whole issue of Jerusalem is unsolvable and therefore the whole Middle-East conflict. All sides of the argument claim that Jerusalem is theirs and theirs only and none of them will listen to any West-Jerusalem/East-Jerusalem-nonsense. By the way, a couple of days ago there was an arson-attack in the synagogue in the Swedish city of Gothenburg. Luckily no-one got hurt but it could have been far worse. It appears that the motive for the attack was this Jerusalem-thing. The President of the United States says that his country will move its embassy to another city in Israel then there is a violent backlash in Sweden. Perhaps there is some logic to it. I don't share your pessimistic belief but I sure as hell understand it. Religious disputes and that is at the heart of the Jerusalem issue other than its being attached to a greater issue of the Arab nations not wanting to recognize a Jewish state is not as explosive as it sounds. Mecca and Medina are far more serious to the Muslim faith. Jerusalem only became a modern day symbol and when I say modern post 1900's, for protesting against any Jewish identity in Palestine. Its a relatively late dispute. Prior to that, the de facto reality of history left Jerusalem a minor city significant to Jews and Christians but not that big a deal to Muslims until they saw Jews wanting to OWN land then it became a conflict. The Arab League's illegal decision to invade it and divide it never created any legal precedent for permanent borders. The borders after 1949 were not ever recognized by the Arab League of Nations or Palestinians and still are not. They were what is called the armistice line, the line Arab armies retreated from. They did not come about by legal treaty between sovereign nations but from a period of time of not being contested. Most people have no clue what that means on this board nor will they care to. Just like they assume UN resolutions are legally binding rulings. Here is what I can say. All three religions have clergy or scholars that recognize the need for mutual respect at a basic level. That goodwill can be found. The average every day person living in Jerusalem, Christian, Jewish or Muslim really does not get hung up on the issue the geniuses do on this board who claim to speak for them. It is an issue for Hezbollah, Hamas and the PA because all 3 and the other 300 or so Palestinian terror cells operating in Gaza and on the West Bank will not recognize a Jewish state. That does not mean someone can't eventually surface out of the Palestinians and Muslim world to say knock off the shit, Israel ain't going away, let's find a peace plan. To understand Netanyahu is to understand he puffs. He has a coalition that keeps him in power that has some pretty right wing people in it, but when it comes to an overall peace plan, he has sufficient support without his right wing groups to push one through and if Israel could get recognition of its Jewish identity, a realistic acknowledgement from the PA it can not "return" 2 million self proclaimed Palestinians who never came from Israel into Israel, and a disarming of terrorists, the settlers would be pulled out and after a period of years of no violence the walls would come down. There is zero reason why you could not have two capitals at the same time in Jerusalem or a trilateral international neutral government catering to the rights of all three and not preventing Israel or a second Palestinian state from having co-capitals. Ehud Barak proposed it and offered it. So did Rabin. So did Olmert. It was in fact Arafat who said phack off to any idea of a Jewish state anywhere openly and loudly and Abbas continues that position. Hezbollah's position as shouted out by its leader yesterday in Beirut was and I quote, "DEATH TO ISRAEL". This is not about Jerusalem, its about recognizing a Jewish state which would be what recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel would really mean to the PA, Hamas et al. Jerusalem is not the issue. Its the recognition of a JEWISH state in Israel. The anti Israelis on this board particularly Marcus won't have the decency or integrity to admit that. Instead they try isolate the settlement or capital of Jerusalem issues as if they are isolated issues. This is why he writes in his style calling on war against Israel when discussing Jerusalem. He's a as transparent as hemmeroid on an elephant. So I say to you, if we ever got past the collective Arab denial that Israel exists as a Jewish nation, issues like Jerusalem, the settlements, would not be hard to get to....but until that impasse is dealt with no other issues are going to be dealt with. The capital of Jerusalem issue is a shot at saying to the Arab world, deal with the reality of Israel. Your tantrums, your threats of terrorism, they haven't worked. Let's be very clear as well. Saudi Arabia as the protectorate of Sunni Islam, Egypt, Jordan, all will not openly state they can live with Israel-they do it secretly because its their ally versus Iran. Push come to shove they want a two state solution because they need Israel to exist to protect them from Iran's nuclear threat. China has enabled a forced detente between Iran and Israel by entering into strategic military alliances with both at the same time. It now gives a bit of breathing room for Sunni nations to deal with extremist Sunni elements and decide can we live with a Jewish state but at the same time placate people in the West Bank and Gaza. Its possible. The way to do it is to provide an alternative to terrorism. If Palestinians lived in a nation where they had access to travelling through Jordan and Israel and use their airports and ports they could form a common market with Jordan and Israel and the three could share water, trade, markets, all the things terrorism prevents. When Marcus talks about check points he is as usual misrepresenting their reality. Their reality is they interfere with the movement of Jews, Muslims, Christians, Beduins, Druze, all of them equally. When people are stopped there is no magic that says Jews are unhindered. What a crock of shit. Everyone of all religions and ethnicities are equally as negatively impacted by checkpoints which are there because of terrorists not civilians. Israel has zero intention of annexing the West Bank. If it did it would become a majority Muslim state and cease to exist as a Jewish state. It does not want the West Bank. Its settlements started out as early warning anti terrorist frontier posts to intercept terrorists. These posts became outmoded because of satellite and other surveillance technology. The people who moved to the West Bank who were Israeli went because they were given tax breaks. They are in the large picture expendable in a movement of them back to Israel in return for Arabs who claim to be Palestinian thinking they can just walk into Israel and be given citizenship. 70% of the so called Palestinians on the West Bank are descended from Arabs who flooded the West Bank and in fact displaced Palestinian Muslims squatting and seizing their land. That is why Arafat blew up the Land Titles office on the West Bank. He had to hide that myth of Palestinians and destroy the evidence of how he invented the term Palestinian to mean any Arab who is not Jewish who wishes to call himself that and is the only refugee definition in the world where the refugees never lived in the country or originated from the country they claim to be dispossessed from. Solve the collective denial of Israel being Jewish, anything peaceful is possible. Otherwise TSS you are right, Edited December 12, 2017 by Rue
Rue Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 17 hours ago, -TSS- said: T By the way, a couple of days ago there was an arson-attack in the synagogue in the Swedish city of Gothenburg. Luckily no-one got hurt but it could have been far worse. It appears that the motive for the attack was this Jerusalem-thing. The President of the United States says that his country will move its embassy to another city in Israel then there is a violent backlash in Sweden. Perhaps there is some logic to it. There is no logic to terrorism or being afraid of it and determining policies based on a fear of it.
Rue Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 8 hours ago, marcus said: What's next for you? Try to justify slavery because it was done before? Slavery exists throughout the Arab League of Nations and in particular, Sudan, Niger, Chad, Dahomey, Libya, Algeria, Bahrain, Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, the UAE. In fact Somalis, Tanzanians, Kenyans, Rwandis, Burundis, Dahomey citizens, Senegalese, "Palestinians", black Africans, Pakistanis, Bangla Deshis, Fillipinos, to name a few are all bought and traded as slave workers by Muslim nations. He hasn't justified slavery, but you sure as hell won't acknowledge it.
Rue Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 14 hours ago, GostHacked said: The Balfour Declaration was not really approved or sanctioned by the Brits. Who legally gave them control? And I guess by that notion, who was denied control? What does NOT REALLY APPROVED mean. Stop with the bull shit. The Balfour Declaration was in fact a public statement issued by the British government during WW1. It happened. Really. No one imagined it. It is in writing and its public record and it clearly announced support for the establishment of a "national home for the collectiv Jewish people in what was then referred to as Palestine, It stated: "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a national home for the Jewish people, and will use their best endeavours to facilitate the achievement of this object, it being clearly understood that nothing shall be done which may prejudice the civil and religious rights of existing non-Jewish communities in Palestine, or the rights and political status enjoyed by Jews in any other country." Really. The declaration was contained in a REAL letter letter dated November 2, 1917 from British Foreign Secretart Arthur balfour who was REAL. It was presented to the then Lord Rothschild who was real and was really the leader of the Britishcommunity and he really relayed ity to the Zionist Federation of Great Britain and Ireland which really existed. The text of the declaration was released by the real press on November 9, 1917. This idiotic attempt to suggest it wasn't real is unreal but hey when you don't like history just pretend its not real. Like really.
eyeball Posted December 12, 2017 Report Posted December 12, 2017 (edited) 15 hours ago, OftenWrong said: I did not try to introduce "blood libel" into the topic. I don't even know what the heck blood libel is. I see, so now the apparent literati here is pleading ignorance of any associations between drinking hot blood, Shakespeare and Jews? That's hilarious. Remember saying this? Maybe you should follow your own advice. Edited December 12, 2017 by eyeball 1 A government without public oversight is like a nuclear plant without lead shielding.
GostHacked Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 8 hours ago, Rue said: What does NOT REALLY APPROVED mean. Stop with the bull shit. Alright, alright, I can admit when I was wrong. .
Altai Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 The Organisation of Islamic Cooperation is going to held a meeting in Turkiye today. President Erdogan said Turkiye may think about to cut all ties with Israel. Ofcourse we should cut ties and we should militarily intervene with Israel to kick them back to their original borders determined by UN. "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
Altai Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 President Erdogan said in this today speech "We recognize Jarusalem (the city of islam) as the capital of Palestine and we invite all the World to recognize it as the capital of Palestine." "You cant ask people about their belief, its none of your business, its between them and their God but you have to ask them whether or not they need something or they have a problem to be solved." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror"We are not intended to conquer someone's lands but we want to conquer hearts." Ottoman Sultan, Mehmed The Conqueror
Rue Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 (edited) 16 hours ago, GostHacked said: Alright, alright, I can admit when I was wrong. . The Arab world remakins fixated on denying a Jewish state. I am not sure what it would take for a Muslim leader to say-phack it Israel is Jewish. If that denial was ended, Netanyahu and his right wing allies and their successors would be compelled to step down from their war setting. If terrorists put down their weapons and acknowledged Israel's Jewish existence they could have a strong alliance with Israel in terms of modern technology. Pulling settlers out of the West Bank without recognition of a Jewish state for them to be pulled back to is not possible. Jerusalem being Israel's capital is not the issue-accepting it being part of a Jewish state is. It is the recognition of the Jewish state of that capital that makes Jerusalem an issue. If Israel as a Jewish state was recognized, there is zero reason it could not also be a second Muslim Palestinian state's capital as well. Palestinians and Israelis are not the issue. Terrorists who will never recognize a Jewish state who control Palestinians and fuel Israeli defensive postures are. If you think as long as terrorists exist on the West Bank or Gaza, they only exist because Israel has Jews on the West Bank you are mistaken take a good hard look at Hamas and Hezbollah. Both said they only existed because Israel was in Gaza (Hamas) and Lebanon (Hezbollah). Both said if Israel withdrew from Gaza and Lebanon both would disarm. Israel did and the moment Israel left these two terrorist organizations attacked Israel declaring their war would never end and they would never disarm until al of Israel was liberated from Jews. That is their continuing position and the position of the PA and Fatah openly. If it was as simple as pulling Jews off the West Bank or not calling Jerusalem anyone's capital there would have been peace years ago. Hamas, Hezbollah, Fatah are in a declared state of war against Israel, a terrorist war to remove it and turn it back into a Sharia law state. The position of Mr. Abbas is he will never recognize a Jewish state of Israel because if he did that, it would prevent 2-3 million Muslims from "returning" to Israel and automatically becoming citizens. Mr. Abbas states any Muslim who feels he is a Palestinian (no test just self identification) should be able to "return" to a country where they never left from or were born in, and be automatically be given land and citizenship. On the expression condition of this return and the dismantling of Israel as a Jewish state, then and only then would he recognize it. His constitution and his speeches make it clear. With a majority of Muslims now Israeli, it would become a sharia law nation and merge with the sharia law nation on the West Bank and Jordan. This was never about co-existence and two states. Its about taking back Israel and removing its Jewish identity. That has never changed and remains the agenda of Hamas, Hezbollah, Syria, Lebanon, the PA, Fatah and 300 other terror cells on the West Bank, Al Qeda, Isamic Jihad, PFLP, Iran on and on. Marcus, Hudson Jones, et al, read their words. They will never accept Israel as a JEWISH state. The very notion makes them puff up with boils. I repeat again, if the Arab world disarmed its terrorists and recognized the right of Israel to live as a Jewish state, settlers would be pulled out of the West Bank, there would be co capitals in Jerusalem, there would be technological alliances and a free market between a second Palestinian state, Jordan and Israel. None of that happens as long as the agenda is removing Israel as a Jewish state. Edited December 13, 2017 by Rue
Omni Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 47 minutes ago, Rue said: I repeat again, if the Arab world disarmed its terrorists and while we're at it maybe we should get the US to stop arming the Israeli terrorists.
marcus Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 2 hours ago, Omni said: and while we're at it maybe we should get the US to stop arming the Israeli terrorists. It's never Israel's fault. "They made us do it!!!" "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
bush_cheney2004 Posted December 13, 2017 Report Posted December 13, 2017 3 hours ago, Omni said: and while we're at it maybe we should get the US to stop arming the Israeli terrorists. Good luck with that...the U.S. even arms Canada. Where do you think your bombs and missiles come from ? Made in the U.S.A. Economics trumps Virtue.
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