NAFTA negotiations.

[Wilber]

 

I agree 100 % that the whole process is a two way street, my question is have the liberals even asked to put in things we think are unfair, such as soft wood lumber. or are we stuck with all this feminist stuff that is not even trade related.

It's a good question and we don't know how serious they are about "all this feminist stuff", or whether they were just chips to be thrown in and bargained away. 

[Army Guy]

Not sure how much those chips would be worth except perhaps the liberal government of Canada,  How much weight do you think those topics are woth to the US or Mexico ? perhaps they are a distraction, anyways I personal think it makes Canada look weak, those lines in the sand should have perhaps contained softwood lumber.....

[Wilber]

 

Not sure how much those chips would be worth except perhaps the liberal government of Canada,  How much weight do you think those topics are woth to the US or Mexico ? perhaps they are a distraction, anyways I personal think it makes Canada look weak, those lines in the sand should have perhaps contained softwood lumber.....

I agree, they are a distraction but I also don't think they have much real influence on the negotiations either way. 

[taxme]

 

You sound like the defeatist. All you people condemning Trudeau for not making a speedy deal think we should have folded like a cheap suit in front of Agent Orange's bluster. Drag it out as long as necessary to get a deal for Canada and if we can't, walk away. This is supposed to be a negotiation, not a capitulation. If supply management can be part of NAFTA, so can softwood  lumber, etc. There is no reason for us to be the only one to give. The clown down south can rant all he wants but he can't change the fact that Canada is by far an away the biggest destination for US exports. He can't change that but we can.

Any agreement made must be approved by Parliament and Congress. It will be subject to plenty of debate before it is passed, or not.

What i would like to see happen now is for Canada to go ahead and try it. Walk away. Let's see what happens after. Agent provocateurs Freeland and Trudeau will be stopped in their tracks with nowhere to go and left standing there scratching their lefty liberal crotches. Our team of agent blusters are going to get busted. If you think that "agent orange" is going to kiss those two butts you are a fool to think so. Those two agent reds are dealing with a guy who knows the art of the deal. Our two misfits only know about how to screw up a deal. Just look at what Trudeau has done to Canada and Canadians already. This feminist and Mr. Dressup prime mistake of yours keeps making Canadians look like a bunch of idiots and fools to the rest of the world for voting in this clown. 

You say that Canada should drag it out for as long as possible but yet I bet that you do not even know as to what is holding up the negotiations? I certainly do not know because my negotiators who are on my payroll are not even telling me as to what is holding up everything. What is the secrecy all about? Maybe it is the two clowns up north that like to rant and not Trump. Think about that. America by far is the biggest destination for Canadian exports and without that Canada would become a third world country. We can't change that but they can. 

These negotiations as far as I am concerned are a big joke and a huge waste of time, effort and tax dollars. But hey, it's only money, right taxpayer? 

[taxme]

 

It's a good question and we don't know how serious they are about "all this feminist stuff", or whether they were just chips to be thrown in and bargained away. 

Why even waste time with "feminist stuff" anyway? We are suppose to be talking about trade not feminist stuff. I guess that guy was right when he said that one of the things holding up the negotiations is gender equity. Only our two clowns could use that as a chip. Do you think that Trump wants to let that be part of any deal? Canadians never get enough of voting in idiots and fools. They do enjoy and love getting the finger from their so called representatives in da attawa every day. Pathetic.  

[Wilber]

"That guy" knows as much about the present state of negotiations as you and I.

[bush_cheney2004]

Ranking GOP congressman urges Canada to poop or get off the NAFTA pot.   Canada's only remaining leverage is to delay the negotiations as long as possible, a standard Canadian tactic long before Trump came along.   The Americans, and to a lesser extent the Mexicans, do not have to worry about domestic political fallout from the appearance of capitulating to Canada, but the opposite is a very big concern for Trudeau and Freeland.  

Not many American present or past political/businees leaders have traveled to Canada to lobby MP's and premiers about the importance of exports to the USA...they already know this very well indeed.    The U.S. House should not be carrying water for Canada.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/top-republican-scalise-nafta-canada-1.4828544

[Wilber]

 

 

DoFo comes out swinging on agriculture and supply management.

[Wilber]

We'll handle them in court

[bush_cheney2004]

53 minutes ago, Wilber said:

We'll handle them in court

 

I love this part...

Quote

“We’re talking about American cars made in Canada, ...."

 

That's because there are no Canadian cars (or Mexican cars).

[taxme]

29 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

I love this part...

 

That's because there are no Canadian cars (or Mexican cars).

And for some strange reason Canada appears to not want to start up it's own Canadian vehicle industry. It seems like our politicians in Canada do not want Canada or Canadians to succeed at all. I guess seeing more small Asian grocery stores open up is what our politicians see as creating new businesses in Canada. Just what Canada needs? More foreign small business which in just about all cases those foreign restaurants or business will hire their own people or family. That way they do not have to pay them decent salaries or benefits. It stays all in the family. 

Canada has the potential to become a wealthy powerful nation if we had politicians who would back off from trying to make it difficult for anyone to start up an industry with the so many rules and regulations(strangulations)and heavy taxes and special minority interest groups that make it very hard for anyone to start up a business. Unemployment and welfare appears to be the big industry in Canada. At least that is how I read things these days. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, taxme said:

....Canada has the potential to become a wealthy powerful nation if we had politicians who would back off from trying to make it difficult for anyone to start up an industry with the so many rules and regulations(strangulations)and heavy taxes and special minority interest groups that make it very hard for anyone to start up a business. Unemployment and welfare appears to be the big industry in Canada. At least that is how I read things these days. 

 

Agreed...the potential is certainly there...but Canadians even complain about help for Bombardier to survive.

Canada is getting a reputation for the place where big projects just don't get done.

Easier to build Chevys, Fords, and Toyotas I guess....for foreign corporations.

[Wilber]

You want the government to start a vehicle company? 4.5B for Transmountain would be chicken feed in comparison. Developing an new car from scratch can cost up to 6B and that is for an already established company.

[bush_cheney2004]

Canada is the only G-7 nation without a major auto make....#11 size economy in the world.

[Wilber]

Name one form Britain.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Wilber said:

Name one form Britain.

 

Morgan.

[Wilber]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Morgan.

Funny.

177 people making 1300 cars a year. Britain is a great place for specialty makes and race cars but all its big names are now foreign owned. 

[bush_cheney2004]

2 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Funny.

177 people making 1300 cars a year. Britain is a great place for specialty makes and race cars but all its big names are now foreign owned. 

 

Morgan is still UK family owned...Wiki should report that as well.  

Startups in Canada have tried to get going....but just whither as usual north of the border.

Morgan on the other hand...carries on....now has a new EV car.

Why can't Canada do that ?

Edited September 21, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Wilber]

Quote

Canada is the only G-7 nation without a major auto make....

I guess 177 people making 1300 cars a year is a major auto make to you.

 

I would love to have a Morgan. I used to go and drool over new Morgans at GB Stern, the western Canada dealer. When I got my first job I spied a nice used BRG +4 sitting on a lot. They wanted $1300 for it but the bank wouldn't lend me the money because I hadn't been working long enough. Never forgiven that bank, the sucker would probably be worth north of 50K now in good shape.

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Wilber said:

I guess 177 people making 1300 cars a year is a major auto make to you.

 

I would love to have a Morgan. I used to go and drool over new Morgans at GB Stern, the western Canada dealer. When I got my first job I spied a nice used BRG +4 sitting on a lot. They wanted $1300 for it but the bank wouldn't lend me the money because I hadn't been working long enough. Never forgiven that bank, the sucker would probably be worth north of 50K now in good shape.

 

 

 

Ferrari only makes about 8,000 cars per year...Rolls-Royce about 4,000....to put Morgan in perspective.

Morgan still has an international dealer network.

 

[Wilber]

41 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Ferrari only makes about 8,000 cars per year...Rolls-Royce about 4,000....to put Morgan in perspective.

Morgan still has an international dealer network.

 

Morgan has just returned to North America. It and cars like the Ariel Atom can't be any more than a small niche because they can't meet the safety standards required of mainstream North American vehicles. Ferrari and Rolls are icons and super expensive. Even the US doesn't have the equivalent. Bugatti, Lamborghini, Bentley, all owned by VW. Rolls, owned by BMW.

Edited September 21, 2018 by Wilber

[bush_cheney2004]

5 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Morgan has just returned to North America. It and cars like the Ariel Atom can't be anymore than a small niche because they can't meet the safety standards required of mainstream North American vehicles. Ferrari and Rolls are icons and super expensive. Even the US doesn't have equivalent. Bugatti, Lamborghini, Bentley, all owned by VW. Rolls, owned by BMW.

 

Canada has neither....Ferrari and RR are still proud national icons.

Frankly, I don't think Canada cares because of the wobbly national identity thing (and topic for another thread).

[Wilber]

8 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Canada has neither....Ferrari and RR are still proud national icons.

Frankly, I don't think Canada cares because of the wobbly national identity thing (and topic for another thread).

Neither does the US and I could care less what you think about Canadian national identity.

[bush_cheney2004]

4 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Neither does the US and I could care less what you think about Canadian national identity.

 

The US has Tesla.....Canada doesn't...and probably never will.

...and Canada does care what a U.S. president does with NAFTA.

 

Edited September 21, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

Canada had Bricklyn, a high performance car akin to DeLorian.  It doesn't matter.  Canada never considered having a nationalized auto.  Canada has always been part of the U.S. supply chain, which has sold heavily in the U.S. and Canada, eventually leading to European versions with what is now essentially foreign ownership, e.g. Opel.  Canada has had the capacity to produce cars for a very long time, since almost the beginning of auto production actually and up into WW2, when there were still Canadian car companies.  McLaughlin was an Ontario car maker that essentially become subsumed by GM as Buick.  More recently Magna almost went into production with an SUV in the  Chretien era.  They made so much money supplying parts to the auto sector that it wasn't a priority.  Maybe it should be, but as any economist today will tell you, publicly traded companies are just that.  There are few national companies unless they are in a sense nationalized, e.g. the Soviet Lada.  Supply moves to markets that buy.  Production moves to markets that are either cheep, highly productive, high tech/high value add, or are a hybrid of some or all of these things.  Government policy/regulations are just additional inputs the cost/benefit analysis of production and sales.  When production is low quality, usually a reputation is associated with the location.  This happened early on in Japan's insdustrialization when the slogan, "Made in Japan" meant low quality.  It means the opposite now.  The same was said early on of South Korea's products.  The U.S. got that rep for autos in the 80's and 90's.  Companies and countries seldom accept having a reputation for lousy production.

So here's the bottom line: Companies want to sell into markets.  Canada is a strong market for auto purchases.  Companies want to produce where the production is good.  Canada's highly skilled workforce is very productive at manufacturing, especially at the high tech end.  We could talk smart phones, health sciences, artificial intel, it doesn't matter.  Canada rates high in all those areas.  Canada is productive and high tech in auto manufacturing, and costs are in line with U.S. production due to our health care system (which saves companies on workers' benefits) and lower dollar.  These are distinct Canadian advantages that aren't going anywhere.  Also, companies that want to sell to this market have to respect its value, or else they risk tariffs, boycotts, essentially bad business.

Canada and the U.S.'s trade relationship serves both countries well in equal numbers.  To mess with that is a mistake.  Nevertheless, Trump is seeking a reorganization of that order in such a way that the U.S. will attain greater advantage.  They can try this on, but bad treatment in trade policy such as tariffs will always be countered in equal measure by Canada.  There may be some hardship if we go to auto tariffs and counter-tariffs, but we will do that if necessary, because it's better to live parched than to be poisoned to death.  Simply, Canada will adjust if need be.

The problem with a lot of the rhetoric on here by some of the right-wing commentators and fake Canadians is that it doesn't take into account how Canadians see their own country.  We're very proud of Canada and our way of life.  Yes we have problems, but I'd say that the vast majority of Canadians would prefer to have our problems than the problems of most other countries.  So while many Canadians such as myself didn't vote for Trudeau or think he was that great, the provinces and Canadians are standing shoulder to shoulder with the federal government to ensure that the way of life that we value in Canada isn't compromised.  And in some cases that does include a bit of gender equity "feminist stuff" or other social policy.  However, negotiations are a two--way street.  Canada can make some compromises, but this isn't a deal where the U.S. says, "We want this, this, and this", and Canada says, "Okay, here you go and nothing for us in return."  In the end, either a new NAFTA is good for the country or it has to be dropped. 

Edited September 21, 2018 by Zeitgeist