NAFTA negotiations.

[Queenmandy85]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

THat's what they always say when I point out explicit examples of state owned means of production, especially in Canada.

That is because they are right and you are wrong. Government ownership of a business might be socialist, but that is not fascism. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Queenmandy85 said:

That is because they are right and you are wrong. Government ownership of a business might be socialist, but that is not fascism. 

 

Rationalize it anyway you wish....Canada is no stranger to fascism going back 100 years.

Canadians accept fascism more readily because of "peace, order, and good government".

[Zeitgeist]

2 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Rationalize it anyway you wish....Canada is no stranger to fascism going back 100 years.

Canadians accept fascism more readily because of "peace, order, and good government".

So is Britain fascist?  Canada is left of Britain in some ways. The problem with your false equivalency is that it’s nihilistic. It makes everything qualitatively the same,  puts death camps and Disney on the same moral ground.  That’s the kind of thinking that, over time, enables seriously inhuman acts, because everything is relative. It’s the same Post- modern moral relativism that Jordan Pederson calls out.  You’re not the only one.  Even evangelicals are demonstrating it. When there is no moral standard, everything is justified.  

[Machjo]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Rationalize it anyway you wish....Canada is no stranger to fascism going back 100 years.

Canadians accept fascism more readily because of "peace, order, and good government".

I'm not denying that fascism probably exists in Canada. That said, don't confuse fascism with semi-democratic ideals. I myself could probably be described as semi=-democratic, meaning that though I believe in a democratic system, I do support reasonable limits to that system.

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

THat's what they always say when I point out explicit examples of state owned means of production, especially in Canada.

I question whether you understand the purpose of government, which is a nonprofit entity whose purpose is to meet the needs of society at large, not only the interests of the few.  We have a postal service and train system that reach unprofitable, distant and small communities because that is what comes with the social organization and the agreement of being part of a country.  We understand that there are essential services: schools, fire departments, police, hospitals.  We understand that we are investing in communities over the long haul.  We also understand that certain industries are essential to the viability of an economy: steel production, roads, defence.  We can argue that some of this should not be in government hands, but in a small country like Canada, for many years only government could insure and fund major infrastructure like the national railway.  Countries build things like The St. Lawrence Seaway canal system or the Confederation Bridge because they serve multiple interests of citizens.  Otherwise what’s the point of having government?  Private companies seldom make that level of social investment, yet you also need private companies in competition.  You need both, government and business. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Canada's tech sector is falling farther behind...little wonder that Trudeau and Freeland are resisting Trump's demands for IP theft protection under NAFTA.

 

 

Canada has a strong IT sector that rises and falls, but market share will naturally drop for western developed economies as other countries develop their IT, such as BRIC countries.  It’s not a bad thing because global competition is the highest level of human production.  You’re benefiting from a vast sharing of ideas.  That’s why protectionism on the whole is foolish. There will almost always be some exceptions though. 

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

So is Britain fascist?  Canada is left of Britain in some ways. The problem with your false equivalency is that it’s nihilistic. It makes everything qualitatively the same,  puts death camps and Disney on the same moral ground. 

 

Do you think it is far better and materially better to call Britain's past "imperialism" instead.   Did First Nations or Japanese interns in Canada or America care what "ism" label best described there past and present circumstances.

This is not a false equivalency...it is a historical record that cannot be hidden from view.

 

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Machjo said:

I'm not denying that fascism probably exists in Canada. That said, don't confuse fascism with semi-democratic ideals. I myself could probably be described as semi=-democratic, meaning that though I believe in a democratic system, I do support reasonable limits to that system.

 

I am not confusing anything...there are "fascist" elements in many governments around the world, including Canada or USA.

America's FDR admired Mussolini and some fascist policies (e.g. National Recovery Act).

NAFTA finds Canada wishing to preserve certain cultural protections and barriers to foreign influence by government control...and crown corporations.

 

 

 

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

I question whether you understand the purpose of government,

 

...and I question your understanding of government control over the private sector (e.g. Canada Health Act).

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Canada has a strong IT sector that rises and falls, but market share will naturally drop for western developed economies as other countries develop their IT, such as BRIC countries.  It’s not a bad thing because global competition is the highest level of human production.  You’re benefiting from a vast sharing of ideas.  That’s why protectionism on the whole is foolish. There will almost always be some exceptions though. 

 

Very well....Canada's "strong IT sector" is falling behind and you are OK with that.

Canada has fallen far behind in R&D investment in general compared to all developed (OECD) nations, and would lose out even more should NAFTA go away:

 

Quote

The latest report on the state of research and development in Canada calls to mind Lewis Carroll’s Red Queen, who famously had to keep running at top speed to stay in one place.

The problem is that Canada’s innovation efforts may not amount to even that much, as other countries surge forward with investments that leverage science and technology and reap the economic rewards.

... The report is the third in a series, produced every six years, to assess the state of Canadian R&D, but it is broader than its predecessors, taking stock of what is known as the entire innovation value chain, from basic research to wealth creation. Yet the conclusions are familiar, because they suggest that one of Canada’s most pressing problems is a long-term decline in business-sector investment in R&D.

LOSING GROUND

For close to two decades Canada’s total investment in research and development (including government, business and academic sectors) has been dropping as a percentage of its economic productivity (GDP). In contrast, average investment by member states in the Organization for Economic Co-operation and Development, which includes other free-market economies, has been rising steadily.

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/canada/article-canada-struggling-to-capitalize-on-research-and-development-sector/

 

Edited September 25, 2018 by bush_cheney2004

[Zeitgeist]

14 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Do you think it is far better and materially better to call Britain's past "imperialism" instead.   Did First Nations or Japanese interns in Canada or America care what "ism" label best described there past and present circumstances.

This is not a false equivalency...it is a historical record that cannot be hidden from view.

 

Don’t equate Japanese internment camps in the US to Nazi death camps.  That’s highly disrespectful to the millions of Jews who lost family in the Holocaust. 

[Zeitgeist]

13 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Very well....Canada's "strong IT sector" is falling behind and you are OK with that.

Canada has fallen far behind in R&D investment in general compared to all developed (OECD) nations, and would lose out even more should NAFTA go away:

 

 

It’s just exaggerated. A big challenge in Canada is keeping our IT startups once they become bigger players, because they tend to be bought up.  Also our productivity, though high in some sectors, is brought down by more traditional sectors like forestry and extraction.  Also some companies don’t reinvest enough in R & D, leaving government to do the job. 

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

Don’t equate Japanese internment camps in the US to Nazi death camps.  That’s highly disrespectful to the millions of Jews who lost family in the Holocaust. 

 

Nonsense....internment camps for U.S. citizens without constitutional protections is the height of authoritarian fascism, and has nothing to do with "Nazis".

People today who like to throw around the word fascist don't know much history or choose to ignore it, and that applies to Canada too.

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

It’s just exaggerated. A big challenge in Canada is keeping our IT startups once they become bigger players, because they tend to be bought up.  Also our productivity, though high in some sectors, is brought down by more traditional sectors like forestry and extraction.  Also some companies don’t reinvest enough in R & D, leaving government to do the job. 

 

No, it is well documented in Canadian media.   Canada is starving itself when it comes to investment in R&D...falling farther behind. 

Trudeau can pretend that he is building the next Silicon Valley in Ontario, but that's all it is...pretending.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Nonsense....internment camps for U.S. citizens without constitutional protections is the height of authoritarian fascism, and has nothing to do with "Nazis".

People today who like to throw around the word fascist don't know much history or choose to ignore it, and that applies to Canada too.

No. Certain more drastic measures, war measures, are necessary during war, like food rations in Britain.  That doesn’t make a country fascist.  Stop equating that which is better with that which is worse. 

Edited September 25, 2018 by Zeitgeist

[Zeitgeist]

1 minute ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

No, it is well documented in Canadian media.   Canada is starving itself when it comes to investment in R&D...falling farther behind. 

Trudeau can pretend that he is building the next Silicon Valley in Ontario, but that's all it is...pretending.

You obviously have no idea how vast and diverse Canada’s IT sector is.  

[bush_cheney2004]

1 minute ago, Zeitgeist said:

You obviously have no idea how vast and diverse Canada’s IT sector is.  

 

It's not just IT where Canada is falling behind other OECD and some developing nations. 

You obviously choose to ignore Canadian media reports on this topic.

Walking away from NAFTA will only make it worse, so please do it !

[Zeitgeist]

5 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

It's not just IT where Canada is falling behind other OECD and some developing nations. 

You obviously choose to ignore Canadian media reports on this topic.

Walking away from NAFTA will only make it worse, so please do it !

More exaggerations and fear-mongering.  Take a page from your prez: Fake news, folks!

[bush_cheney2004]

3 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

More exaggerations and fear-mongering.  Take a page from your prez: Fake news, folks!

 

You can run from the facts...but you cannot hide.

 

[Zeitgeist]

2 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

You can run from the facts...but you cannot hide.

 

Au contraire.  I'm all about the facts, not bombastic exaggerations or false equivalency. 

[bush_cheney2004]

Just now, Zeitgeist said:

Au contraire.  I'm all about the facts, not bombastic exaggerations or false equivalency. 

 

The facts are that Canada has lower labour productivity and lower investment in R&D....even with NAFTA.

[Zeitgeist]

3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

The facts are that Canada has lower labour productivity and lower investment in R&D....even with NAFTA.

The devil is almost always in the details.  You can't just seize on the details that support your argument and ignore others.  I know that's the norm.  You have to look at sectors.  R & D is a nagging problem, but it's not like there's little R & D.  The problem we've found is that it doesn't seem to matter how much you lower taxes for businesses or give them other breaks, they tend to hoard profits rather than reinvest.  You'd be surprised how carefully policy has been drafted to prevent this, but business likes to turn all risk over to government.  Sound familiar?  Think of your massive government bailouts of big business in the US after the Great Recession.

[bush_cheney2004]

53 minutes ago, Zeitgeist said:

...  You'd be surprised how carefully policy has been drafted to prevent this, but business likes to turn all risk over to government.  Sound familiar?  Think of your massive government bailouts of big business in the US after the Great Recession.

 

Doesn't matter, as the U.S. private sector and government have valued investment in R&D much more than Canada.  Just count the patents, Nobel prizes, other industry awards....and Canadians crossing the border to work on R&D in the United States.

[Zeitgeist]

6 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Doesn't matter, as the U.S. private sector and government have valued investment in R&D much more than Canada.  Just count the patents, Nobel prizes, other industry awards....and Canadians crossing the border to work on R&D in the United States.

Oh, so you’re acknowledging that progress is a group effort requiring the brightest minds from around the world, not just one country. How global of you. We have Yanks in our IT sector too. It’s ridiculous to compare numbers of patents and Nobel prizes with a country one tenth the size of the US. It’s apples and oranges.  As I’ve said before, the US benefits from economy of scale, as you end up with large centres for industries, such as Silicon Valley.  Our centres are smaller.  However you also have big country problems in terms of safety, security, environmental impacts, etc.  There are advantages and disadvantages of the large and the small, but the UN Human Development Index consistently ranks small countries at the top of its list, such as the Scandinavian countries.  

[bush_cheney2004]

3 hours ago, Zeitgeist said:

Oh, so you’re acknowledging that progress is a group effort requiring the brightest minds from around the world, not just one country.

 

Sure, but I am also acknowledging that Canada is a relative deadbeat when it comes to R&D investment based on OECD rankings.