Paid Protesters!

[betsy]

3 hours ago, dialamah said:

It's the right who has proven themselves even more violent than even Islamic extremists in the States and in Canada.

 

 

Aren't you going really waaaaay overboard in trying to polish the image of Islamic extremists by making up this cockamamie comparison?

 

Your perception is off-key, if you truly believe that.

It's statements like that which derails your attempt to look seemingly "objective."

Edited August 28, 2017 by betsy

[Hal 9000]

It wouldn't take too many paid protesters to start a fight...or outright riot, just a couple idiots who may be a little unstable.  The left is so volatile right now, they just need a small spark.  

[scribblet]

6 hours ago, dialamah said:

It's the right who has proven themselves even more violent than even Islamic extremists in the States and in Canada.

My personal opinion is that the antifa should be shut down by the police whenever they show up.   Still, the right-wing's attempts to deflect about how 'bad' the left is, while completely excusing or ignoring the behavior and activities of their own extremists is rather telling.  

Not a deflection when it's true.    Over the last two years the left has been far more violent,  I can’t say I’ve seen any right wing protesters trashing and looting their own towns.  The left has responded to the Democrats loss with far spread violence accusing anyone with whom they disagree of racism.  It is they who are posing the threat to democracy. 

[Michael Hardner]

26 minutes ago, scribblet said:

 It is they who are posing the threat to democracy. 

People will be saying this much more after the shooting starts.  I'm not being hyperbolic, I really only see escalation to urban violence at this point.  There doesn't seem to be anybody calling for restraint.

[bush_cheney2004]

Big deal....why is escalation in violence so much more dramatic for Trump than escalation in violence under the Obama administration ?

Stay tuned for more shocking violence...OH MY !!

Edited August 29, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[OftenWrong]

29 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

I'm not being hyperbolic, I really only see escalation to urban violence at this point.  There doesn't seem to be anybody calling for restraint.

"We're closely following the terrible events unfolding in Charlottesville, Virginia," Mr. Trump said. "We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides."

Underscore is mine. Condemning violence... that's not unlike calling for restraint.

[Michael Hardner]

15 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Underscore is mine. Condemning violence... that's not unlike calling for restraint.

So, the reaction was ridiculous then correct ?  Trump is a great unifier and unreasonable people overreacted, and therefore can't be reasoned with is what I'm getting from this.

[OftenWrong]

22 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So, the reaction was ridiculous then correct ?  Trump is a great unifier and unreasonable people overreacted, and therefore can't be reasoned with is what I'm getting from this.

Not at all, I meant to show how people completely ignore Donald Trump. You have demonstrated this in sublime fashion.

[Hal 9000]

So, we know for a fact that there was violence from both sides, Trump says he condemns violence and bigotry of both sides - and is getting flack for that comment, are we then to assume that the left wants him to support or accept violence from the left?

[Michael Hardner]

25 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Not at all, I meant to show how people completely ignore Donald Trump. You have demonstrated this in sublime fashion.

So I'm part of the problem, apparently, but my point stands: there's nothing stopping this from getting worse.

[Hal 9000]

13 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So I'm part of the problem, apparently, but my point stands: there's nothing stopping this from getting worse.

I think your right, it will get worse.  I have posted on here a long time ago, that very sentiment.  Right now, the Trump people have the upper hand politically, and the left is lashing out.  Until recently, the left has been laughed at by the right wing people, however, there is a limit to how much people will take and sooner or later the right will fight back...and when they do, it'll get serious.   I hate to think what would happen if Trump was actually usurped.

[Michael Hardner]

14 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

I think your right, it will get worse.  I have posted on here a long time ago, that very sentiment.  Right now, the Trump people have the upper hand politically, and the left is lashing out.  Until recently, the left has been laughed at by the right wing people, however, there is a limit to how much people will take and sooner or later the right will fight back...and when they do, it'll get serious.   I hate to think what would happen if Trump was actually usurped.

Trump won't be usurped but I think now that the culture war will soon spill out to actual violence.

[OftenWrong]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So I'm part of the problem, apparently, but my point stands: there's nothing stopping this from getting worse.

You epitomize the very problem. The left ran away. They broke off the dialogue and marched out, burning bridges behind them all the way. They made themselves a safe space, from which they give each other high-fives, and make little plans, and send you here.

[Michael Hardner]

7 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

You epitomize the very problem. The left ran away. They broke off the dialogue and marched out, burning bridges behind them all the way. They made themselves a safe space, from which they give each other high-fives, and make little plans, and send you here.

Ok.  Beyond the blame stage now, how to de-escalate ?   A new initiative maybe ?

[Hal 9000]

13 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

So, the reaction was ridiculous then correct ?  Trump is a great unifier and unreasonable people overreacted, and therefore can't be reasoned with is what I'm getting from this.

Trump can't unify as long as the leftist politicians and media don't want unification.  The way they came unwound at the mere thought that Antifa should take some accountability for the eruption of violence in Charlottesville should indicate as much.  Antifa are fighting the proxy war that the dems and media want, they have to call in the dogs, if that's even possible at this point.

[dialamah]

30 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Trump can't unify as long as the leftist politicians and media don't want unification.  The way they came unwound at the mere thought that Antifa should take some accountability for the eruption of violence in Charlottesville should indicate as much.  Antifa are fighting the proxy war that the dems and media want, they have to call in the dogs, if that's even possible at this point.

I don't suppose you have any memory of Obama spending years dealing with obstruction from Republicans, constant attacks on his lineage, or the way the Republicans took the country to the brink of shutting down at least twice, that I recall.   Yet somehow, he managed to get things done and violence did not become a huge problem, either from the right or the left.

But now the Republicans are in power and actually hold more power than Obama did, do they not?   Both house and senate, as I recall, a concentration of power that Obama never achieved.  Under the Republicans,  nothing get done, chaos reigns in the White House, their 'leader' threatens to shut down government if he doesn't get his way. Violence  ramps up, starting with Trump's rallies - which he conveniently blames on the left, despite his recorded words egging on his supporters to beat up objectors.   When a right-wing person kills someone, that's the left's fault too, it seems - because they showed up.    This reminds me of the excuses of a man who beats up his wife:  You made me do it, so it's your fault!  

Really bizarre thought processes, that's for sure.  

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by dialamah

[Michael Hardner]

43 minutes ago, Hal 9000 said:

Trump can't unify as long as the leftist politicians and media don't want unification.  The way they came unwound at the mere thought that Antifa should take some accountability for the eruption of violence in Charlottesville should indicate as much.  Antifa are fighting the proxy war that the dems and media want, they have to call in the dogs, if that's even possible at this point.

So the solution is for Leftist media to stand down.

[dialamah]

3 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

So the solution is for Leftist media to stand down.

Leftist media and leftists, too, I think.   

[OftenWrong]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok.  Beyond the blame stage now, how to de-escalate ?   A new initiative maybe ?

Someone on the left needs to start talking sense. If we use this forum as a metaphor for what's happened, the left needs to return to the fold and re-engage in useful dialogue, recognizing it cannot always get what it wants, at least not right away and that others have the right to express themselves, even if repugnant. The real world is imperfect, and sometimes its better to allow minor "ugliness" to exist, to express itself and to vent, than to use force or prohibition. Both sides have a responsibility to de-escalate. Moderate voices need to be heard, not extremists. On  local scale, you and I should stop buying into and feeding the extremist narrative.

Edited August 29, 2017 by OftenWrong
stcky kys

[dialamah]

5 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

Someone on the left needs to start talking sense. If we use this forum as a metaphor for what's happened, the left needs to return to the fold and re-engage in useful dialogue, recognizing it cannot always get what it wants, at least not right away and that others have the right to express themselves, even if repugnant. The real world is imperfect, and sometimes its better to allow minor "ugliness" to exist, to express itself and to vent, than to use force or prohibition. Both sides have a responsibility to de-escalate. Moderate voices need to be heard, not extremists. On  local scale, you and I should stop buying into and feeding the extremist narrative.

When I came to this forum two years ago, I wasn't too clear on the differences between left and right.  I understood we had a Liberal and Conservative party, both of whom I voted for at different times.  But beyond that, I thought we were kinda the same.  It took months before I recognized who was left and who was right on this forum.

What I eventually saw was a very marked difference between left and right, overall, in the posts here.  It seemed to me that the right complains about a lot of stuff, blames everyone else - especially the left - for what they don't like, even stuff that is he result of conservative ideology, and they take every opportunity to insult and demean anyone they consider left, and rarely offer any moderate or mediating suggestions.  Not to mention their unwillingness to help people they consider 'undeserving'.

By contrast, it seemed to me the left used facts to support their points, resorted to insults and demeaning comments less often than the right, used humor, admitted error among their own and even offered mediating ideas - few of which were even acknowledged, let alone accepted.

The behavior on this board defined my perception of left and right, because I didn't come here with a particular political ideology and I think that is something right-wingers should think about before they start attacking me for stating plainly what I saw.  And maybe instead of demanding that its all 'up to the left", the RW should try some conciliation and mediation as well.

Qualifying statements:

1.  Two or three RW are not as described above

2.  Two or three LW are not as described above

3.  I assume this board attracks only the most partisan RW element and so they are probably not representatibive of RW across Canada.

4.  LW on this board seem most like the Canadians I have met throughout my life and whose politics I did not know.  It is extremely unlikely I met nothing but left-wingers in almost 60 years. So maybe the RW element here is more extreme than the majority of Canadians.

[Argus]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

So the solution is for Leftist media to stand down.

The problem with the media can be conflated with discussions on other topics related to how people with certain types of personalities and beliefs  - or even gender instincts - gravitate towards living in certain areas, and occupying certain professions. The personality profile of people who gravitate towards the media tends to be very 'open' personality types with very liberal leanings. As an example, in a study a few years back just 7% of journalists were Republicans. And that was well before Trump.

So the media tends to reflect the Democratic party message and beliefs. And no, I'm not suggesting any sort of conspiracy here. But the affect on the national media is that these very liberal people who all live in big cities, which are very liberal, have thoughts, ideas, beliefs, which reflect their personalities and environment. And they definitely do NOT reflect the personalities beliefs and environment of most of the people who don't live in those sprawling urban centers. And their message, over the past couple of decades, has gotten gradually more elitist and more dismissive of those other people.

It has gone together, and probably helped inspire the Democratic party abandoning rural Americans, and tailoring their message to suit those of the national media, focusing on progressive urban identity politics without regard to how some of those messages might infuriate people not a member of those carefully divided and selected identity groups the Democrats are trying to woo.

And btw, this is precisely the sort of thing Just Trudeau is engaged in now, also.

[DFCaper]

1 hour ago, dialamah said:

What I eventually saw was a very marked difference between left and right, overall, in the posts here.  It seemed to me that the right complains about a lot of stuff, blames everyone else - especially the left - for what they don't like, even stuff that is he result of conservative ideology, and they take every opportunity to insult and demean anyone they consider left, and rarely offer any moderate or mediating suggestions.  Not to mention their unwillingness to help people they consider 'undeserving'.

By contrast, it seemed to me the left used facts to support their points, resorted to insults and demeaning comments less often than the right, used humor, admitted error among their own and even offered mediating ideas - few of which were even acknowledged, let alone accepted.

I read this forum regularly, but rarely post.  The tone seems to change when the government changes.  

 

Trudeau is such a great salesman, and Trump is soo poor as a political leader, the Left seems blind to their activities.  This blindness makes it difficult to have a reasonible conversation.

I do not see Trudeau to be leading much to the right of Harper, just is far more positive in his messaging.

[bush_cheney2004]

The suppression of "right wing" views is normalized in Canada:

• politically  -  LW extremists enjoy far more support in national and regional parties (e.g. NDP).
• economically - provincial and federal battles over energy development, commodities, transportation, and taxes ultimately lean to the left (e.g. NEP, blocked projects)
• media -  Canada's state sponsored and controlled broadcaster reflects LW perspectives and policies over conservative views
• legal -  Canada prohibits certain forms of expression and media outlets perceived as "false news"...legal censorship.
• culturally -  anti-American views are valued to help define the Canadian identity in general, but "progressive" views/media are readily imported from American culture.

 

The very term "alt-right" has been imported from the U.S. as a pejorative label to be used by Canadians against each other.    Political discourse in Canadian media now relishes an opportunity to associate anything perceived as RW or conservative with President Donald Trump, whose election victory sent waves of shock and disbelief in a foreign country that is so heavily invested in American political outcomes.   PM Harper enjoyed the same fate with George W. Bush being used to label and attack him on a regular basis in Canada, as if that is/was the greatest insult of all.

Protesters on both sides of the border have not and cannot rise to the import and relevance of far wider and stronger social change movements of the 60's and 70's.

 

Edited August 29, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, DFCaper said:

1.  I read this forum regularly, but rarely post.  The tone seems to change when the government changes.  

2.  I do not see Trudeau to be leading much to the right of Harper, just is far more positive in his messaging.

1.  Perhaps true, and an explanation I hadn't thought of.  I was here a couple months before the gov changed and it's tempting to claim it was just the same, but two years on I can't say for sure and anyway, two months is hardly time to make an accurate assessment.

2.  Agree that he's not a lot different in actions than what came before.  I sure do wish the Conservatives had picked Chong instead of Scheer.

[taxme]

On 8/28/2017 at 2:54 AM, betsy said:

Have you ever wondered why counter-protesters seems to always be available, like as if on demand?  Show a nationalist rally - and you'll soon find thousands of counter protesters (even on short notice) to be there!

It's been circulating that an ad was placed seeking to hire protesters in a rally. 

 

 

http://www.snopes.com/crowds-on-demand/

 

When someone wouldn't give a straight, simple  answer -  what are the chances something fishy is going on?

We all should know by now that the paid for hire crowd to create violence and riots is for real.  Someone or some group is paying these agitators to show up and start trouble. It is amazing how these Antifa red guards seem to be able to be there and ready to go at a moments notice.  The powers to be will do whatever and whenever it takes and never will quit until they can destroy not only the Trump presidency but also will try and destroy any nationalist group that wished to express their right to freedom of speech peacefully. The Antifa communist  Soros thugs are the fascists and the new Mao's red guards of America. At one such demonstration recently at Berkley the Antifa red guard thugs showed up at some meeting and started to chant "no Trump, no wall, no USA at all".  Source"RightEdition. So there we have it by the looks of things, folks. These Antifa thugs want to destroy all things American period, and will not stop all their violence and rioting until they are able to complete their mission. And why are the police always pretty much are told to stand down and let the thugs have their way and day? That is a question that needs to be asked. Good post, Betsy.