I'm Sick of Society

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

I am right. 

What if you're not ?  My assessment of the 'threat' of Islamic fundamentalism is open to change with evidence.  Could you be convinced that Muslims in North America aren't a threat ?

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What if you're not ?  My assessment of the 'threat' of Islamic fundamentalism is open to change with evidence.  Could you be convinced that Muslims in North America aren't a threat ?

 

You'd be a welcome addition to the French High Command in 1940.

[DogOnPorch]

They used pigeons to communicate. 

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

You'd be a welcome addition to the French High Command in 1940.

That's another question you refuse to answer.

So we have you repeating yourself, declaring yourself 'right' and refusing to answer two questions... and counting...

[Bonam]

21 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

What if you're not ?  My assessment of the 'threat' of Islamic fundamentalism is open to change with evidence.

What evidence?

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Bonam said:

What evidence?

What evidence would change my mind ?  Lots of different kinds.

[Bonam]

Just now, Michael Hardner said:

What evidence would change my mind ?  Lots of different kinds.

For example? Because statistics about who commits terrorist attacks in Western countries doesn't seem to be the evidence you are looking for. Statistics about the prevalence of extreme views doesn't seem to be the evidence you are looking for. So what kind of evidence are you looking for?

[Cum Laude]

I often think about talk the lack of roles for young men.. With many economists pointing to the automation of 60% of jobs there will be even less to do…..assuming society holds together that long. But another point here is that women no longer need men. Gone are the days of the girl needing a man for everything from housing to legal participation. Add to that the breakdown of families, towns, or any collective idea of “us”. There is no need to have children anymore, nor is there the need to have children in a “traditional” setting. Parents don’t parent anymore due to the rise of the daycare industry and the need for two incomes. Have the kid, wait twelve weeks. Stick them in daycare. The student loan fiasco is already unravelling. “Pay as you earn” plans offered by the government allow for “payments” of zero dollars. And the debt is “forgiven” after 10-25 years depending on your job. 1.3 trillion in debt will never be paid back. An uprising seems likely, but I sense it will be aimed at elites. A little bit of 1789 France? Let’s not even get into the housing “situation”.
Moreover, when things collapse, our young men will lack the ability to do most of what we need. They are physically weak and have no idea how to do the most basic task. I recently had to teach a 16 year old boy from Manhattan how to use a rake. After 15 minutes he stopped because his hands hurt. Therefore, the over 40 crowd will need to teach them real skills and not “communications” or “business” as the college cannibals are encouraging.
It will sure be interesting!

[Michael Hardner]

3 minutes ago, Bonam said:

For example? Because statistics about who commits terrorist attacks in Western countries doesn't seem to be the evidence you are looking for. Statistics about the prevalence of extreme views doesn't seem to be the evidence you are looking for. So what kind of evidence are you looking for?

Statistics about who commits terror attacks doesn't provide any information that we don't already know.  Islamic Terrorists do that.  Is it enough of a threat to change our entire system of government to disallow a religion ?  No.  

We don't change our laws to disallow American blacks from coming here because they are disproportionally arrested for crimes in the US.

-- -- --

I am aware of my biases and the areas where I rely on my values and not facts, and those are the areas I would look at.  

[Bonam]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

Statistics about who commits terror attacks doesn't provide any information that we don't already know.  Islamic Terrorists do that.  Is it enough of a threat to change our entire system of government to disallow a religion ?  No.  

We don't change our laws to disallow American blacks from coming here because they are disproportionally arrested for crimes in the US.

-- -- --

I am aware of my biases and the areas where I rely on my values and not facts, and those are the areas I would look at.  

Ok but that still doesn't answer what kind of evidence you are looking for. Could you provide a specific example of a piece of evidence that would, as you say, "change your mind" on this topic? 

[Michael Hardner]

2 minutes ago, Bonam said:

Ok but that still doesn't answer what kind of evidence you are looking for. Could you provide a specific example of a piece of evidence that would, as you say, "change your mind" on this topic? 

I don't know.  Maybe something that said after so many years there was a significant difference in support for Canadian values for people of a certain group who were born here.  I do look at such things.

[Bonam]

1 minute ago, Michael Hardner said:

I don't know.  Maybe something that said after so many years there was a significant difference in support for Canadian values for people of a certain group who were born here.  I do look at such things.

Sounds wishy washy. I don't think you've ever agreed on what is a set of "Canadian values" to begin with so I suspect that if you saw such evidence, rather than having it change your mind you would simply question the definition of what Canadian values meant in whatever survey or study had been conducted. If you asked me what evidence would change my mind on certain topics I would have better answers. 

I would suggest that if you really consider yourself open to changing your point of view on this or other subjects, ask yourself honestly what kind of evidence it would take until you come up with something more specific. And then, look for such evidence, or post here and see if anyone has already come across such evidence. 

[dialamah]

2 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, it's true.  I guess it depends on the industry you work in.

Or the tree you are hidung behind.

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Bonam said:

Sounds wishy washy. I don't think you've ever agreed on what is a set of "Canadian values" to begin with so I suspect that if you saw such evidence, rather than having it change your mind you would simply question the definition of what Canadian values meant in whatever survey or study had been conducted. If you asked me what evidence would change my mind on certain topics I would have better answers. 

Well, gee.  I'm sorry my imagination of what would change my mind doesn't please you.

At least I answered the question put before me.  How many are now on your boy DogOnPorch that he refuses to answer ?

He has some agenda for Canadian Muslims which he won't state.  He won't say what would make him change his mind about Muslims.

Just now, Bonam said:

I would suggest that if you really consider yourself open to changing your point of view on this or other subjects, ask yourself honestly what kind of evidence it would take until you come up with something more specific. And then, look for such evidence, or post here and see if anyone has already come across such evidence. 

Yeah, I read Argus' posts on this as those are the clearest ones on that side of the aisle with some numbers to them.

----

Now go talk to people from that side about their bullshit 'evidence' that Islam is a threat to our way of life...

[Bonam]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Well, gee.  I'm sorry my imagination of what would change my mind doesn't please you.

At least I answered the question put before me.  How many are now on your boy DogOnPorch that he refuses to answer ?

He has some agenda for Canadian Muslims which he won't state.  He won't say what would make him change his mind about Muslims.

DoP is not "my boy". The point of my post wasn't to insult your "imagination" but to get you to think harder about what kind of evidence you are really looking for. Is your belief truly open to change, or is the evidence you would need so difficult as to essentially be unobtainable? What evidence would a deeply religious person need to convince them that god doesn't exist? Does such evidence exist or is it essentially impossible to have such evidence?

Quote

Yeah, I read Argus' posts on this as those are the clearest ones on that side of the aisle with some numbers to them.

Yes, they generally are. Nonetheless, as far as I've seen, you've generally been quite unconvinced by his arguments, requesting better evidence that you have yet to define. 

Quote

Now go talk to people from that side about their bullshit 'evidence' that Islam is a threat to our way of life...

Thank you for your recommendation about who I should talk to. I'll give your suggestion the full consideration that it deserves. You, however, try to come off as if you are rooted as deeply as you can be in objectivity and evidenced-based beliefs, though you admit you have some biases. That's a good philosophy, and I am trying to explore how much you've actually thought about it or is it merely your talking point? Are you truly more open to contrary evidence than the typical partisan hack, or do you just think you are?

[Michael Hardner]

Just now, Bonam said:

1. Is your belief truly open to change, or is the evidence you would need so difficult as to essentially be unobtainable?

2. What evidence would a deeply religious person need to convince them that god doesn't exist? Does such evidence exist or is it essentially impossible to have such evidence?

1. Yes, it is.  I am watching such things all the time and am as surprised by strongly favourable evidence as strongly unfavourable evidence.

2. It depends on the individual.  I lost my faith gradually, over time, but it's impossible to disprove God entirely.

Just now, Bonam said:

3. Yes, they generally are. Nonetheless, as far as I've seen, you've generally been quite unconvinced by his arguments, requesting better evidence that you have yet to define. 

3.  Nonetheless, he does have numbers and evidence that makes me think.  I can't anticipate what the evidence would be.  Certainly the most convincing stuff I've read of his is nothing I could have imagined existing before he posted it.

 

Just now, Bonam said:

You, however, try to come off as if you are rooted as deeply as you can be in objectivity and evidenced-based beliefs, though you admit you have some biases. That's a good philosophy, and I am trying to explore how much you've actually thought about it or is it merely your talking point? Are you truly more open to contrary evidence than the typical partisan hack, or do you just think you are?

4. Yes, I have biases.  Maybe I'm vain in thinking I'm objective or maybe I'm confronted by so many posters here (left and right) who wouldn't stop cheering for their team no matter what.  I feel like I'm more open to evidence than most.  If you read my posts you can find some hints of what I've changed on over the years.  Maybe better to look for what I don't post.  Since you've been gracious, I'll give an example at the risk of exposing myself: the argument for immigration in terms of growth is one I haven't supported although I DO still support that the motivation for these beliefs is 'economic orthodoxy'.  I am no longer saying that I agree with it, though, just that others do.  So there.

[hot enough]

3 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

That's another question you refuse to answer.

So we have you repeating yourself, declaring yourself 'right' and refusing to answer two questions... and counting...

It's very interesting to hear you make out that you are different than DOP, Michael. In some areas, you are of course but in others you are twins. 

Here you are being DOP like.

"I am watching such things all the time and am as surprised by strongly favourable evidence as strongly unfavourable evidence."

Edited August 24, 2017 by hot enough

[hot enough]

31 minutes ago, Bonam said:

The point of my post wasn't to insult your "imagination" but to get you to think harder about what kind of evidence you are really looking for. Is your belief truly open to change, or is the evidence you would need so difficult as to essentially be unobtainable? What evidence would a deeply religious person need to convince them that god doesn't exist? Does such evidence exist or is it essentially impossible to have such evidence?

Are there different kinds of evidence? Isn't all evidence fact based? What, after how many milleniums of no evidence, supported by no facts, could possibly appear to illustrate that god does exist?

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

3. The college kids I meet are balanced, hard working and wise.  I trust things will be great when they take over.

  c'mon man.  Go see what's happening at your nearest university student union meetings.  These people are our future politicians and they act like little toddlers born with no brains.

[Moonlight Graham]

6 hours ago, Cum Laude said:

I can no longer stand our form of society. I think about the title of a book called “The Sociopathic Society”. We can hardly be called a society; it’s more of a big incoherent dog eat dog system we live in. Civil society in North America, people caring for one another and talking to one another, has practically broken down. A majority of people are more concerned about marijuana legalization than the troubles we all will face.

I can’t stand that my world being confined to Home, Road, Work, Home, grocery store, Road, Work, Home. I can’t stand the isolation, I can’t stand that most people have nothing important to say to one another, I can’t stand ugly buildings and their fluorescent lighting, I can’t stand the pragmatic immoral indifference of the adult population to $70000 a year for college tuition, Health care extortion, corporate tyranny, abusive and comically incompetent schools (all of them), Endless wars killing millions to drive value into lockheed martin stock making the world a less safe place to live in, ect. ect. ect. (in other words: Anything that matters is off limits!)

...

Your whole post, I mainly agree with.  My thinking was the same as your not long ago.

The secret is to not let it take hold of you & make you horribly cynical of the world.  You won't change the world doing this.  If you're lucky you might change the world in some small way for the better if you dedicate all your life's work & energy for the next 40 years fighting this system, but you won't change human nature and extremely difficult to change the system itself.

Your other option is to remove yourself from these negativities.  Remember when you were a kid and ignorance was bliss, you didn't have worries about any of these things because you didn't know about them  or understand them or didn't care.  The world still turned when you were a kid & ignored this stuff, and will keep turning whether you worry about this world or not.  So I suggest unplugging from this effed up society as much as possible.  Go find a nice rural home 20 minutes (the further the better) outside of the city to raise your family so you're surrounded by trees, grass, blue skies, fresh air, and birds chirping instead of honking horns and concrete as far as the eye can see.  Keep off the internet & TV as much as you can, don't carry your cellphone everywhere u go or get rid of the damn thing altogether, only read the news once a week or so, and get out of the house & meet some nice people & make an honest living by whatever you're decent at & makes you happy to get up & start work in the morning.  Simplicity is the key to happiness and fortunately it costs a lot less than the opposite.

I'm amazed when I drive through older neighbourhoods & see the houses people lived in 40-50 years ago, the homes were half the size & cars much uglier but people seemed happy & likely happier. They had 2-3x bigger yards.  No giant master bedrooms or on-suite bathrooms, no walk-in closets, no 55" 4K TV's.  For all of human history up until the last century humans had to entertain themselves not by TV/radio/internet/cellphones/videogames but had to actually interact with each other.  Our recent ancestors didn't need sunglasses or sunscreen when they went outside because their bodies were used to being outdoors.  So get out there.

[Cum Laude]

3 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Your whole post, I mainly agree with.  My thinking was the same as your not long ago.

The secret is to not let it take hold of you & make you horribly cynical of the world.  You won't change the world doing this.  If you're lucky you might change the world in some small way for the better if you dedicate all your life's work & energy for the next 40 years fighting this system, but you won't change human nature and extremely difficult to change the system itself.

Your other option is to remove yourself from these negativities.  Remember when you were a kid and ignorance was bliss, you didn't have worries about any of these things because you didn't know about them  or understand them or didn't care.  The world still turned when you were a kid & ignored this stuff, and will keep turning whether you worry about this world or not.  So I suggest unplugging from this effed up society as much as possible.  Go find a nice rural home 20 minutes (the further the better) outside of the city to raise your family so you're surrounded by trees, grass, blue skies, fresh air, and birds chirping instead of honking horns and concrete as far as the eye can see.  Keep off the internet & TV as much as you can, don't carry your cellphone everywhere u go or get rid of the damn thing altogether, only read the news once a week or so, and get out of the house & meet some nice people & make an honest living by whatever you're decent at & makes you happy to get up & start work in the morning.  Simplicity is the key to happiness and fortunately it costs a lot less than the opposite.

I'm amazed when I drive through older neighbourhoods & see the houses people lived in 40-50 years ago, the homes were half the size & cars much uglier but people seemed happy & likely happier. They had 2-3x bigger yards.  No giant master bedrooms or on-suite bathrooms, no walk-in closets, no 55" 4K TV's.  For all of human history up until the last century humans had to entertain themselves not by TV/radio/internet/cellphones/videogames but had to actually interact with each other.  Our recent ancestors didn't need sunglasses or sunscreen when they went outside because their bodies were used to being outdoors.  So get out there.

That was a fine post. I applaud you for the common sense you portray. Do you ever wonder how things will go as we see kids younger and younger addicted to technology, especially cell phones. The developers of facebook, twitter, Instagram, snapchat and other useless "social media tools"  know how to get people, not just kids, ADDICTED to their platforms. Peopl, overall, aren't to bright and can't realize they are addicted.

As long as no shortages of stuff that the masses want and as long as the central banks of the world keep printing, distributing and accepting each others worthless fiat currencies the mindless minions shall remain under relative control and the excess at the top can go unmolested. If any of that changes, and for the life of me I cannot understand how it has gone on for so long already, then it is all up for grabs. The one constant that will remain in place until then is the slow degradation of societies both morally and mentally.

 

Edited August 24, 2017 by Cum Laude

[Moonlight Graham]

3 minutes ago, Cum Laude said:

That was a fine post. I applaud you for the common sense you portray. Do you ever wonder how things will go as we see kids younger and younger addicted to technology, especially cell phones. The developers of facebook, twitter, Instagram, snapchat and other useless "social media tools"  know how to get people, not just kids, ADDICTED to their platforms. Peopl, overall, aren't to bright and can't realize they are addicted.

Well all those websites/apps you mentioned along with most of the other most popular internet sites are social in nature.  Humans as they say are social beings, and we crave interacting with other people because we want the acceptance & the company.  Before we did this almost entirely face-to-face, now we're stuck indoors on our laptops & phones watching Netflix while texting or posting Instagram selfies etc.  We don't meet girls & get married at 20, we stay home & jerk off to porn (the most popular thing on the internet) & stay single into our 30's+ then get divorced & start jerking to porn again while trying to meet someone on OkCupid or Tinder instead of going out & talking to real people you're attracted to. Porn & dating apps are also signs of us yearning for human interaction.  The solution is very simple, log off & interact with the people around you.

Quote

As long as no shortages of stuff that the masses want and as long as the central banks of the world keep printing, distributing and accepting each others worthless fiat currencies the mindless minions shall remain under relative control and the excess at the top can go unmolested. If any of that changes, and for the life of me I cannot understand how it has gone on for so long already, then it is all up for grabs. The one constant that will remain in place until then is the slow degradation of societies both morally and mentally.

We've always been controlled by cruel powers, whether politicians, corporations, kings/queens, feudal lords, church leaders.  It's fine to fight against that, it's fine to try & get into the 1% to have the "dream life", but it's much easier just to ignore all that crap & live a simple life as far away from all that crap as possible so they have the least influence on you as possible.  "Far" doesn't mean just physical distance but also how often of if we choose to expose ourselves ie: on internet bombarding our brains with media/advertising.

[Cum Laude]

9 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Well all those websites/apps you mentioned along with most of the other most popular internet sites are social in nature.  Humans as they say are social beings, and we crave interacting with other people because we want the acceptance & the company.  Before we did this almost entirely face-to-face, now we're stuck indoors on our laptops & phones watching Netflix while texting or posting Instagram selfies etc.  We don't meet girls & get married at 20, we stay home & jerk off to porn (the most popular thing on the internet) & stay single into our 30's+ then get divorced & start jerking to porn again while trying to meet someone on OkCupid or Tinder instead of going out & talking to real people you're attracted to. Porn & dating apps are also signs of us yearning for human interaction.  The solution is very simple, log off & interact with the people around you.

We've always been controlled by cruel powers, whether politicians, corporations, kings/queens, feudal lords, church leaders.  It's fine to fight against that, it's fine to try & get into the 1% to have the "dream life", but it's much easier just to ignore all that crap & live a simple life as far away from all that crap as possible so they have the least influence on you as possible.  "Far" doesn't mean just physical distance but also how often of if we choose to expose ourselves ie: on internet bombarding our brains with media/advertising.

The newest fad in our enclosed (and dying) shopping malls is the fake storefront: intentional design to give the impression something is there which really is not. It’s the perfect metaphor for our economy and our society.
It reminds me of the architecture prior to the Depression. I walked through the Kansas City railroad station recently while transferring between Amtrak trains. What a grand entrance to a great city, now a series of empty corridors and a handful of small businesses hanging all.
We still long for the optimism of Brad Paisley’s “Welcome to the Future,” but now the old lyrics from Barry McGuire’s “Eve of Destruction” can be heard in the distance.

[Cum Laude]

40 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Your whole post, I mainly agree with.  My thinking was the same as your not long ago.

The secret is to not let it take hold of you & make you horribly cynical of the world.  You won't change the world doing this.  If you're lucky you might change the world in some small way for the better if you dedicate all your life's work & energy for the next 40 years fighting this system, but you won't change human nature and extremely difficult to change the system itself.

Your other option is to remove yourself from these negativities.  Remember when you were a kid and ignorance was bliss, you didn't have worries about any of these things because you didn't know about them  or understand them or didn't care.  The world still turned when you were a kid & ignored this stuff, and will keep turning whether you worry about this world or not.  So I suggest unplugging from this effed up society as much as possible.  Go find a nice rural home 20 minutes (the further the better) outside of the city to raise your family so you're surrounded by trees, grass, blue skies, fresh air, and birds chirping instead of honking horns and concrete as far as the eye can see.  Keep off the internet & TV as much as you can, don't carry your cellphone everywhere u go or get rid of the damn thing altogether, only read the news once a week or so, and get out of the house & meet some nice people & make an honest living by whatever you're decent at & makes you happy to get up & start work in the morning.  Simplicity is the key to happiness and fortunately it costs a lot less than the opposite.

I'm amazed when I drive through older neighbourhoods & see the houses people lived in 40-50 years ago, the homes were half the size & cars much uglier but people seemed happy & likely happier. They had 2-3x bigger yards.  No giant master bedrooms or on-suite bathrooms, no walk-in closets, no 55" 4K TV's.  For all of human history up until the last century humans had to entertain themselves not by TV/radio/internet/cellphones/videogames but had to actually interact with each other.  Our recent ancestors didn't need sunglasses or sunscreen when they went outside because their bodies were used to being outdoors.  So get out there.

Some nations will not look forward, but will do the dumbest things possible–i.e. fight resource wars to “sustain the unsustainable.”
With small communities, however, I see potential for forward-thinking action. Transition Towns are a good example of this. Add to this community gardens, CSAs, cooperatives, local, sustainable, seasonal economies, and you soon have lots of hopeful signs.
“Canada should do this or Canada should do that” talk is becoming increasingly irrelevant to the man in the trenches.
Going forward, the people who are on track doing the right thing are those who are working on the local level.

[Bonam]

27 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

We don't meet girls & get married at 20, we stay home & jerk off to porn (the most popular thing on the internet) & stay single into our 30's+ then get divorced & start jerking to porn again while trying to meet someone on OkCupid or Tinder instead of going out & talking to real people you're attracted to. Porn & dating apps are also signs of us yearning for human interaction. The solution is very simple, log off & interact with the people around you.

Easily said but the reality is most people don't really react positively to someone "interacting" with them out of the blue. Start talking to someone in their 20s-30s in a random setting and they will assume that you are either: 1) crazy, 2) creepy, 3) about to ask for money. Tinder and similar tools provide a platform where the purpose of the interaction is known and people can interact on their own time when they feel like doing so. Culture has changed too much relative to what you may have experienced. You can't just "go out there" and start "interacting" because that is so far outside the norm that it will not generally get positive reactions. When it comes to asking women out, if you approach one at random, you're just as likely to end up in court for harassment as you are to go on a date (both outcomes at the <1% level). To interact productively, you have to use the medium that people expect you to use.