The Battle of Charlottesville

[Argus]

Just now, Wilber said:

Does anyone dispute that if the driver of that car was a Muslim instead of someone with know neo Nazi leanings, people would be calling it an act of terrorism?

I'm sure it would have been. But then we would have known his motivation. What was the motivation of this particular loser? Hatred? Well yeah, but that's pretty general. Racism? He could have driven his car into a BLM gathering somewhere, or into some black neighborhood market. Besides, the people he drove into were of a variety of races, mostly white. The one person who died was white. I think it more likely this was unplanned, and that it was spurred by him being worked up by/enraged by the fighting, probably because he got beaten (speculation, I admit). 

[kimmy]

1 minute ago, Wilber said:

Does anyone dispute that if the driver of that car was a Muslim instead of someone with know neo Nazi leanings, people would be calling it an act of terrorism?

We need to find out how he became radicalized. Why didn't James Fields' family and his pastor alert authorities that he'd become radicalized?

 -k

[DogOnPorch]

5 minutes ago, Wilber said:

Does anyone dispute that if the driver of that car was a Muslim instead of someone with know neo Nazi leanings, people would be calling it an act of terrorism?

 

Does Islam have any connection to using vehicles to commit acts of religious terrorism? 

Well?

 

[Wilber]

Just now, kimmy said:

We need to find out how he became radicalized. Why didn't James Fields' family and his pastor alert authorities that he'd become radicalized?

 -k

True, but to maintain that this is no more than the act of street gangs is to say that white supremacists and neo nazis don't represent an ideology. 

[Wilber]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

Does Islam have any connection to using vehicles to commit acts of religious terrorism? 

Well?

 

Of course, so why would anyone say he is he any different?

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Wilber said:

Of course, so why would anyone say he is he any different?

 

I agree with Argus that there were two groups on the streets spoiling for a confrontation...they all got it.

Neither represent me.

[dialamah]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

I prefer to challenge people like you, who assert that all Muslims are just fine, and any criticism of their behaviour is racism and bigotry.

 

Where did he say that?   Quote the exact words where he said "(All) Muslims are just fine"; bet you can't.

 

 

[DogOnPorch]

I bet NONE of them could describe a SINGLE battle Robert E Lee was involved in nor could any of these protesters tell me Lee's attitude towards slavery...next to say...Grant's.

[Michael Hardner]

40 minutes ago, Argus said:

But let's not forget that there was also a lot of violent counter demonstrations during the election, with groups from the Left trying to shut down his rallies and prevent people from attending. 

The who-started-it discussion happens every war.  I think Trump did.  State your opinion on that if you want.

Stopping the escalation is on our leaders.  That's their job.  Betsy's hero is not up to the task.  If Betsy thinks protesting justifies violence, she doesn't get it.  

[Argus]

2 minutes ago, Michael Hardner said:

The who-started-it discussion happens every war.  I think Trump did.  State your opinion on that if you want.

Stopping the escalation is on our leaders.  That's their job.  Betsy's hero is not up to the task.  If Betsy thinks protesting justifies violence, she doesn't get it.  

I don't disagree that Trump is not up to the task of restraining the alt-right. But uh... just out of curiosity, what task would you imagine he WOULD be up to? Other than selling real estate in Manhattan?

At the same time, I see zero effort from Left wing leaders to restrain or even condemn the violence and intimidation coming from far left groups such as those at Charlottesville.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Argus

[Argus]

20 minutes ago, dialamah said:

Where did he say that?   Quote the exact words where he said "(All) Muslims are just fine"; bet you can't.

Where did I say all Muslims are terrorists? I bet you can't find that either. But that never stops you from attacking me for doing so.

[dialamah]

39 minutes ago, Argus said:

And yet I, who have condemned Trump as thoroughly as anyone since he started running, and have condemned white supremacists and anti-Semites for years, believe the real culprits in the street violence in Charlottesville were the far left.

You just hate leftists more than you hate neo-nazis, white supremacists or Trump, so you'll blame them.   

During the non-stop coverage of this event, some CNN reporter mentioned that FBI records show that 80-odd terrorists acts have been carried out by right-wing groups such as neo nazis and white supremacists, while 40-something were carries out by Muslims, from 2001 until 2016.  Funny how people such as yourself are so willing to hold all Muslims responsible for the violence some of their extremists engage in, but unwilling.to hold the right reponsible for any of the violence their extremists engage in.

[Argus]

Just now, dialamah said:

You just hate leftists more than you hate neo-nazis, white supremacists or Trump, so you'll blame them.   

Is English a second language to you? I have condemned Nazis and white supremacists repeatedly. A lot more than you, as a matter of fact. I've also condemned Trump a lot more than you. But I'm not blinded by ideological zealotry like you and I can see on videos who was responsible

Just now, dialamah said:

During the non-stop coverage of this event, some CNN reporter mentioned that FBI records show that 80-odd terrorists acts have been carried out by right-wing groups such as neo nazis and white supremacists, while 40-something were carries out by Muslims, from 2001 until 2016.  Funny how people such as yourself are so willing to hold all Muslims responsible for the violence some of their extremists engage in, but unwilling.to hold the right reponsible for any of the violence their extremists engage in.

Funny how people like you who have completely and wholly defended all Muslims against any and all accusations of violence, of bigotry, of extreme sexism and misogyny, of antisemitism and homophobia jump up and down pulling your hair out because one Nazi rammed his car into a group of leftists. The terrorist acts committed by right wing groups don't include blowing up the WTC or driving trucks into crowds or blowing up airliners so they don't get as much publicity. Most of their violence is directed at individuals, whereas that of Muslims is directed at crowds, such as the attempt to set off a car bomb in Times Square, as one example. Furthermore no one defends these people. There are no mainstream conservatives who will defend the fascist right with anything like the shrill, fanatic determination you and your cadre of Islamophile defenders of Islam demonstrate here on a daily basis.

[drummindiver]

13 hours ago, marcus said:

The awkwardness is that Zionist Jews dislike the KKK/Nazis/Angry hillbillies because they have racist feelings towards Jews. But then they both have racist feelings towards Muslims.

Shouldn't have to point out at this point of the game Islam is not a race but an ideology.

[drummindiver]

4 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Sorry, Trump set the tone for violence.  It belongs in this thread, as the bloodletting was set up at that time.  

They knew they were getting this kind of leader.  He instigates, he doesn't pacify. He is still signaling that the Nazis have a reasonable viewpoint. All that is left is for the violence to play out.

Damn. Try thread drift of this caliber when you're moderating.

Only thing pointed out is that the fascist left is still trying to shut down free speech, just as you do here when you disagree with an opinion.

[LonJowett]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

I agree with Argus that there were two groups on the streets spoiling for a confrontation...they all got it.

Neither represent me.

So you're not down with anti-racism? That says a lot.

[LonJowett]

1 hour ago, Argus said:

At the same time, I see zero effort from Left wing leaders to restrain or even condemn the violence and intimidation coming from far left groups such as those at Charlottesville.

I don't think it's just the far left who will not tolerate Nazis rallying in their streets. There's wide support for counter-rallying against them. It's really just the very right-wing conservatives who are whining about how the poor Nazis had their free speech violated by seeing people who disagree with them. 

[Wilber]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

I agree with Argus that there were two groups on the streets spoiling for a confrontation...they all got it.

Neither represent me.

So they were spoiling for a fight, so what. Why do they have to represent you? So there was no ideology involved, just common street thugs having a brawl as far as you are concerned.

[DogOnPorch]

7 minutes ago, LonJowett said:

So you're not down with anti-racism? That says a lot.

 

Straw-man.

3 minutes ago, Wilber said:

So they were spoiling for a fight, so what. Why do they have to represent you? So there was no ideology involved, just common street thugs having a brawl as far as you are concerned.

 

Uh, yeah...because only certain types of folks show-up to these affairs...brass knuckles hidden in yea olde backpack....both sides. 

I prefer an afternoon of sex with the Mrs.

[Argus]

12 minutes ago, LonJowett said:

So you're not down with anti-racism? That says a lot.

I'm not down with deciding that my opinions are the only ones anyone is allowed to express and that violence should be used against those who disagree with me. You don't believe in freedom of speech? That says a lot about you.

[Argus]

11 minutes ago, LonJowett said:

I don't think it's just the far left who will not tolerate Nazis rallying in their streets. There's wide support for counter-rallying against them. It's really just the very right-wing conservatives who are whining about how the poor Nazis had their free speech violated by seeing people who disagree with them. 

I think all conservatives have been consistent in wanting to protect free speech, and in their demand for law and order. You don't get to 'not tolerate' Nazis rallying in the streets. They're not YOUR streets. They belong to everyone. The law does not state that only those with pretty opinions get to express their views. It says everyone does. Counter rallying is one thing, but when you show up with bricks, bottles, helmets, masks, shields and clubs, that's not a rally and you should all be arrested on the spot.

Edited August 14, 2017 by Argus

[LonJowett]

16 minutes ago, Argus said:

I think all conservatives have been consistent in wanting to protect free speech, and in their demand for law and order.

I think the Dixie Chicks would disagree.

Both the Nazis and the anti-Nazis showed up ready for a fight, but the Nazis were more heavily armed. If you were aware at all of the discourse before the event, you would know that a lot of the Nazis were planning on beating liberal protesters. Don't try to pretend it was one sided. It wasn't at all.

And the only side that killed and/or sent people to the hospital was the Nazis.

[Wilber]

25 minutes ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Straw-man.

 

Uh, yeah...because only certain types of folks show-up to these affairs...brass knuckles hidden in yea olde backpack....both sides. 

I prefer an afternoon of sex with the Mrs.

When Brown Shirts were warring in the streets with Communists and everyone else during the early thirties, I don't suppose any of them represented you either but that didn't make it irrelevant.

Fewer and fewer people have a direct connection with what went on during those years, either personally or through relatives and I think we are more in danger of repeating history the more distant that connection becomes.

 

[DogOnPorch]

Just now, Wilber said:

When Brown Shirts were warring in the streets with Communists and everyone else during the early thirties, I don't suppose any of them represented you either but that didn't make it irrelevant.

Fewer and fewer people have a direct connection with what went on during those years, either personally or through relatives and I think we are more in danger of repeating history the more distant that connection becomes.

 

 

Ooooo....aren't you preachy!

[Wilber]

Just now, DogOnPorch said:

 

Ooooo....aren't you preachy!

 Just saying what I think