Art Exhibit Cancelled. Deemed to be Cultural Appropriation

[Michael Hardner]

6 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1) It doesn't really matter if they're right or not, they still do it and still succeed either way.  And yes, sometimes they are indeed right and sometimes not, at least IMO.

2) The key is the fear by politicians/governments/businesses/individuals etc of being labeled as racist (or sexist, LGBT-phobic etc).  Nobody ever wants that, horrible rep/PR to have.  Activists have (smartly) taken advantage of this, and their demands continue to increase in frequency and boldness.

3) It's a war of ideas, and the left has been winning, but the right has started to fight back (Brexit, Trump etc).  This isn't ending any time soon, & it's going to be ugly.

1) You're saying that their viewpoint isn't entirely reasonable, I think.  And I think I agree with you there.  But you are also saying unreasonable viewpoints will succeed either way.  That says deeper things about our democracy.  If you believe that, then there must be other examples of ideas being shut down by being tagged with damning pejoratives.

 Maybe that applies to the "red scare" period of American history ?  As such, there was an eventual backlash against that tactic and "the" public eventually reconciled unpopular views with the right to free speech.

2) I don't know that I agree that people buy the "you're racist" trope across the board.  Certainly, the American election showed that there is more appetite for unpopular views and views repugnant to the left than some think.  Or maybe "you're sexist" doesn't work as well as "you're racist"... or maybe racism against Mexicans is ok ?  I'm honestly not sure.

3) The left wins some, loses some.  It may be ugly, but we can see it as a test of our institutions I suppose.

My overall observation is that we are now looking at a "new" public.  It's the same people, but with a broader range of ideas at play.  I don't think we yet understand how they/we think.

[Moonlight Graham]

11 hours ago, Wilber said:

What does it have to do with right and left?

Everything.  Leftist thinking fights to free the oppressed and marches towards change and what they see as progress, while rightist thinking fights to resist these changes in order to maintain the status quo and the more traditional values & culture they hold dear.

[Argus]

33 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Everything.  Leftist thinking fights to free the oppressed and marches towards change and what they see as progress, while rightist thinking fights to resist these changes in order to maintain the status quo and the more traditional values & culture they hold dear.

At least the right is more consistent. The Left fights against oppression but uses oppression themselves, just against different groups and for different reasons. 

[Wilber]

3 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Everything.  Leftist thinking fights to free the oppressed and marches towards change and what they see as progress, while rightist thinking fights to resist these changes in order to maintain the status quo and the more traditional values & culture they hold dear.

So if you are in the middle, you are the oppressed majority?

[blackbird]

21 hours ago, Bonam said:

- religious resurgence / extremism: this applies to the rise of extremist/political Islam, as well as religious resurgence in America. 

 

From a little searching on the internet, it appears weekly church attendance is declining slightly in America.  I seem to recall it has been declining in Europe and Canada as well, although I am not positive.  I don't see any christian religious resurgence happening at the moment in America.  I believe there is a slow but steady growth of Islam in Europe and America though due to immigration and birthrates.  If you look at the Statistics on the internet, I think you will find the Caucasians are actually in decline in Europe and North America due to a birth rate below 2.1 per family, which is the minimum for sustaining an identifiable group.  The decline of church attendance and the decline of the Caucasian birth rate in the west could indicate the disappearance of the Judeo-Christian culture and civilization as we know it in the not too distance future.  Many will dismiss this as nonsense, but the demographics statistics seem to bear this out.

[Michael Hardner]

Posts here, including mine, have descended into meta-discussion, ie. How the 'left' vs 'right' see things.

We aren't hiding off-topic posts here so let's try to tie it back to cultural appropriation.

[Moonlight Graham]

1 hour ago, Michael Hardner said:

Posts here, including mine, have descended into meta-discussion, ie. How the 'left' vs 'right' see things.

We aren't hiding off-topic posts here so let's try to tie it back to cultural appropriation.

How's it not related?  Cultural appropriation is a cry from minorities who feel oppressed, who feel their culture is being ripped off and exploited by people of the dominating majority culture. 

I don't know what to think of it.  They have a point.  For aboriginals, they have a lot to complain about, and have lived under a historic system of dominance, exploitation, and theft that hasn't left many of them in a very good state of being.  Their societies are broken.  Then they see some white girl come and steal an aboriginal's art and make it her own. So I see why that would make people upset.

On the other hand, seems like everything white people think, say, and do is offensive to someone and they're told to change everything.  Like walking on eggshells all the time, it's hard to even breathe, it's hard to be made to feel that everything you know is wrong.  But that also can't be as hard as the things many minorities face.

[Michael Hardner]

7 minutes ago, Moonlight Graham said:

1) How's it not related?  Cultural appropriation is a cry from minorities who feel oppressed, who feel their culture is being ripped off and exploited by people of the dominating majority culture.  

2) On the other hand, seems like everything white people think, say, and do is offensive to someone and they're told to change everything.  Like walking on eggshells all the time, it's hard to even breathe, it's hard to be made to feel that everything you know is wrong.  But that also can't be as hard as the things many minorities face.

1) Some of it is related, but if you look at the most recent posts about religious trends, immigration etc. it's too broad.  I concur that this is subjective, but the moderators want us to keep things closer to the topic than that.

2) Sure, since that speaks directly to the initial complaint in the OP it's relevant.  I get that it's tricky to tag thread drift, but we just have to keep it from going from "related to the topic" to "related to a point related to the topic".  If you have any other thoughts on thread drift, post it in "Support and Questions".

 

Let's get back to it now.

 

[Moonlight Graham]

Cultural appropriation is inevitable.  Nobody has legal ownership over aspects of their culture, unless it literally is copyrighted.  Sometimes people can be offended by appropriation, so they complain.  That's their right.  People also have the right to walk down the street wearing just about whatever they want and have whatever hairstyle they want.

IMO society has much bigger problems than this stuff.  There's a thousand much more important problems facing aboriginal communities than what some white girl wants to paint.

[Bob Macadoo]

19 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said:

Cultural appropriation is inevitable.  Nobody has legal ownership over aspects of their culture, unless it literally is copyrighted.  Sometimes people can be offended by appropriation, so they complain.  That's their right.  People also have the right to walk down the street wearing just about whatever they want and have whatever hairstyle they want.

IMO society has much bigger problems than this stuff.  There's a thousand much more important problems facing aboriginal communities than what some white girl wants to paint.

Appropriation is inevitable.  I think the issues more rise with "stealing" culture without acknowledgement of what went into its development.  Fashion designers / artists incorporating native artifacts/aspects into products for chic-sake rubs those that have suffered irks some.  I think the reason hip-hop has been allowed to be appropriated is simply due to capitalist market share associated with it.  If FN people dominated the market (ie. makes gobs of cash) in selling FN culture I'm sure its minor appropriation would be overlooked.  If other cultures are making more money off it then that would be an aggrieved appropriation.

Once again the only culture that really matters is greed.....for all.

 

[kimmy]

1 hour ago, Bob Macadoo said:

 If FN people dominated the market (ie. makes gobs of cash) in selling FN culture I'm sure its minor appropriation would be overlooked.  If other cultures are making more money off it then that would be an aggrieved appropriation.

I just don't get it.

I mean... I'm not a Native American... if I wear my silver-and-turquoise necklace am I a bad person?

If I enjoy rock music and I'm not black... am I a bad person?

If I prefer Arabic numerals to Roman numerals, am I a bad person?

I just don't get it.

 -k

[WestCoastRunner]

43 minutes ago, kimmy said:

I just don't get it.

I mean... I'm not a Native American... if I wear my silver-and-turquoise necklace am I a bad person?

If I enjoy rock music and I'm not black... am I a bad person?

If I prefer Arabic numerals to Roman numerals, am I a bad person?

I just don't get it.

 -k

Imitating native headdress and wearing them are an insult because the right to wear them Is more spiritual then cultural. I've been told it's similar to wearing a Purple Heart. 

[herples]

On 5/16/2017 at 6:19 PM, kimmy said:

I just don't get it.

I mean... I'm not a Native American... if I wear my silver-and-turquoise necklace am I a bad person?

If I enjoy rock music and I'm not black... am I a bad person?

If I prefer Arabic numerals to Roman numerals, am I a bad person?

I just don't get it.

 -k

You would have to argue those things hold cultural significance to those peoples.

When it comes to cultural appropriation, intent of the appropriator and the balance of power between the two cultures are of importance. 

 

 

 

 

[Guest]

When it comes to cultural appropriation, copyright law is important.  Otherwise it's just a case of,  do it if you want, someone might get upset. 

[Argus]

On 5/16/2017 at 10:04 PM, WestCoastRunner said:

Imitating native headdress and wearing them are an insult because the right to wear them Is more spiritual then cultural. I've been told it's similar to wearing a Purple Heart. 

Purple hearts are awarded for specific reasons to specific people. And I don't see anyone wearing feather headdresses around, do you? But jeweler of all sorts is inspired by all manner of cultures and is worn by people all over the world simply because it strikes their eyes as attractive. No one gets to object.

[herples]

On 5/25/2017 at 9:18 AM, Argus said:

Purple hearts are awarded for specific reasons to specific people. And I don't see anyone wearing feather headdresses around, do you? But jeweler of all sorts is inspired by all manner of cultures and is worn by people all over the world simply because it strikes their eyes as attractive. No one gets to object.

Don't see a lot of people wearing purple hearts either. 

How do you know what the average jeweler is inspired by? How is a ring or earring cultural appropriation? 

[Guest]

If you look closely enough at any artistic or commercial endeavour you could probably find, at the very least, influences from other cultures that the more enthusiastic fault finders among us would lose sleep over.  In a world where multiculturalism seems to be a laudable goal what better way of achieving it than borrowing and using whatever you want from whatever culture you want. 

I listened to a ridiculous group of people on the BBC world service a couple of days ago, lamenting the trend of chefs and restaurants to cook, and even change, food that doesn't belong to them by culture. And sell it, no less!

More often than not, it's outrage for its own sake by those for whom outrage has become a hobby. 

 

 

[herples]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

If you look closely enough at any artistic or commercial endeavour you could probably find, at the very least, influences from other cultures that the more enthusiastic fault finders among us would lose sleep over.  In a world where multiculturalism seems to be a laudable goal what better way of achieving it than borrowing and using whatever you want from whatever culture you want. 

I listened to a ridiculous group of people on the BBC world service a couple of days ago, lamenting the trend of chefs and restaurants to cook, and even change, food that doesn't belong to them by culture. And sell it, no less!

More often than not, it's outrage for its own sake by those for whom outrage has become a hobby. 

 

 

Multiculturalism is best achieved by cultural exchange where each side has a say in the usage of their symbols and ideals as opposed to cultural appropriation where a dominant culture takes a minority culture's practices as it's own without allowing the minority culture any say in the matter.

On 5/22/2017 at 5:34 PM, bcsapper said:

When it comes to cultural appropriation, copyright law is important.  Otherwise it's just a case of,  do it if you want, someone might get upset. 

Claiming that copyright law is important to this discussion ignores the more important points about cultural appropriation. 

Edited May 27, 2017 by herples

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, herples said:

Multiculturalism is best achieved by cultural exchange where each side has a say in the usage of their symbols and ideals as opposed to cultural appropriation where a dominant culture takes a minority culture's practices as it's own without allowing the minority culture any say in the matter.

Claiming that copyright law is important to this discussion ignores the more important points about cultural appropriation. 

No it's not - No it doesn't.

[herples]

Not much of a counter argument. 

[Guest]

Just now, herples said:

Not much of a counter argument. 

I would just reiterate the points I already made.  Not much point in that.

[herples]

14 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

I would just reiterate the points I already made.  Not much point in that.

Points that I have already addressed. 

[Guest]

16 minutes ago, herples said:

Points that I have already addressed. 

Yes.  You disagreed with them.  Then I disagreed with you.  Isn't arguing fun?

[herples]

You haven't elaborated why you disagreed with my statements you simply responded with, " No it's not - No it doesn't." 

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, herples said:

You haven't elaborated why you disagreed with my statements you simply responded with, " No it's not - No it doesn't." 

I already stated, in a world where multiculturalism seems to be a laudable goal what better way of achieving it than borrowing and using whatever you want from whatever culture you want.

You said you had a better way.  I disagreed.  Still do.

I also said that copyright law is the only thing that matters when it comes to cultural appropriation.  Given my first statement the second would follow automatically.  If it isn't protected, go ahead and use it. 

You said the claiming that copyright law is important to this discussion ignores the more important points about cultural appropriation. I think if it's important, it's protected.  If it's just annoying, so what?