hot enough Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 3 hours ago, betsy said: As far as I know, he's still alive today. The devil must be stokin' a super hot fire. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlie Posted March 29, 2017 Report Share Posted March 29, 2017 Betsy, Muslims say the same about verses in Quran. Muslim Brotherhood and Ummah takes precedence over humanity. It's about "us believers" vs "them". Exactly in line with what you claim about Bible We probably don't need religion. It only creates divide. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 8 hours ago, hot enough said: You quote a man, an organization, that avidly supported US war crimes in Vietnam. How can this be seen as godlike? A man who advised a plan that would see a million or more murdered. A man who suggested a plan of action that saw a German war criminal sentenced to death. Why would a purported Christian support such deep evil, quote such deep evil, as an expression of god's love? Is this what tolerance and acceptance is all about in your mind? I don't think this has anything to do with the subject, not what Billy Graham might have said or not. Also the OP has nothing to do with the war in Afghanistan or elsewhere. The topic is to do with the interpretation of the bible. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 11 hours ago, Charlie said: Betsy, Muslims say the same about verses in Quran. Muslim Brotherhood and Ummah takes precedence over humanity. It's about "us believers" vs "them". Exactly in line with what you claim about Bible We probably don't need religion. It only creates divide. No. Not the same at all. Not by a long shot. Have you been reading at all???? I suggest you go back, and read the verses I'd given so far. Digest what they say. If that's what you think they say - you're not understanding them. The Bible doesn't say it's "us vs. them." The Bible actually instructs us to pray for those who persecute us. We don't kill them for being non-believers! Instead, we are instructed to love them - by praying for them. Edited March 30, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) Christ had said: Matthew 28:18–20 18 And Jesus came and said to them, h“All authority iin heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 jGo therefore and kmake disciples of lall nations, jbaptizing them min2 nthe name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them oto observe all that pI have commanded you. And behold, qI am with you always, to rthe end of the age.” When God makes a specific command, it's for a reason. Christ instructed His disciple to GO OUT INTO ALL THE WORLD to preach the gospel. Disciples are to go out to them. He didn't say to bring them in that you may teach them. He's saying, go to them. Perhaps it is because of His command in 2 John 1 - that we're not supposed to bring them into our homes unless they've already been converted? Edited March 30, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) Actually, 2 John's statement ....... 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not take them into your house or welcome them. 11 Anyone who welcomes them shares in their wicked work. .......refers to false preachers and prophets. During the early days of the church, preachers used disciples' houses for "churches" when they preached. Thus this applies to anyone who tries to lead you astray from the commands of God. Edited March 30, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 Let's not mistake COMPASSION............................... for today's definition of "tolerance" and "acceptance." 2 Cor 6 Warning Against Idolatry 14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 15 What harmony is there between Christ and Belial[b]? Or what does a believer have in common with an unbeliever? 16 What agreement is there between the temple of God and idols? For we are the temple of the living God. As God has said: “I will live with them and walk among them,and I will be their God, and they will be my people.”[c] 17 Therefore, “Come out from them and be separate,says the Lord.Touch no unclean thing, and I will receive you.”[d] 18 And, “I will be a Father to you, and you will be my sons and daughters,says the Lord Almighty.”[e] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 14 hours ago, blackbird said: I don't think this has anything to do with the subject, not what Billy Graham might have said or not. Also the OP has nothing to do with the war in Afghanistan or elsewhere. The topic is to do with the interpretation of the bible. Not "might have said". Why are you being so patently dishonest? Is this about "the truth about tolerance and acceptance"? You are of the opinion that a preacher, [who Betsy herself quoted, thus bringng him into the topic] Billy Graham, who advocates war crimes, the equal of the Nazis, illustrates "the truth about tolerance and acceptance". You and Betsy are dandy examples of folks who illustrate "the truth about tolerance and acceptance"? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 5 hours ago, betsy said: The Bible doesn't say it's "us vs. them." The Bible actually instructs us to pray for those who persecute us. We don't kill them for being non-believers! Instead, we are instructed to love them - by praying for them. That isn't the case at all. The bible commands genocide, and the USA has dutifully followed in that a number of times. Bright colors and big letters can't hide that. Quote "Then we turn to the Bible, and we actually find something that is for many people a real surprise. There is a specific kind of warfare laid down in the Bible which we can only call genocide." It is called herem, and it means total annihilation. Consider the Book of 1 Samuel, when God instructs King Saul to attack the Amalekites: "And utterly destroy all that they have, and do not spare them," God says through the prophet Samuel. "But kill both man and woman, infant and nursing child, ox and sheep, camel and donkey." When Saul failed to do that, God took away his kingdom. "In other words," Jenkins says, "Saul has committed a dreadful sin by failing to complete genocide. And that passage echoes through Christian history. It is often used, for example, in American stories of the confrontation with Indians — not just is it legitimate to kill Indians, but you are violating God's law if you do not." Jenkins notes that the history of Christianity is strewn with herem. During the Crusades in the Middle Ages, the Catholic popes declared the Muslims Amalekites. In the great religious wars in the 16th, 17th and 19th centuries, Protestants and Catholics each believed the other side were the Amalekites and should be utterly destroyed. http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=124494788 Edited March 30, 2017 by hot enough Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, hot enough said: Not "might have said". Why are you being so patently dishonest? Is this about "the truth about tolerance and acceptance"? You are of the opinion that a preacher, [who Betsy herself quoted, thus bringng him into the topic] Billy Graham, who advocates war crimes, the equal of the Nazis, illustrates "the truth about tolerance and acceptance". I have quoted Billy Graham.....but this is not about Billy Graham. Quoting him does not make him the topic. This is about the verse that he quoted. Edited March 30, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 30, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) 2 hours ago, hot enough said: That isn't the case at all. The bible commands genocide, and the USA has dutifully followed in that a number of times. Bright colors and big letters can't hide that. This is not about the USA, or what Christians commit or not. This thread is about the Biblical verses on tolerance and acceptance. Don't be persistent in trying to derail this thread! Edited March 30, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hot enough Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 9 minutes ago, betsy said: This thread is about the Biblical verses on tolerance and acceptance. Your suggestion, I take it, is to read only those portions of the bible and ignore the rest. Shall I rip out of my bible the parts that command genocide, the herem parts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted March 30, 2017 Report Share Posted March 30, 2017 (edited) This is one of the sickest & most twisted threads I've ever seen on MLW. Betsy, you're trying to cherrypick and interpret Bible quotes to reaffirm your fear and distrust of Muslims and to give religious self-affirmation of your political stance of not wanting to bring Muslims refugees into Canada. Not only that, you're labeling your interpretations as "the truth". Do you really think Jesus, if he were alive today, would support turning away other humans fleeing war and death just because they don't believe he's the son of god? Jesus hung out with the biggest outcasts of his era: prostitutes (eww sinners!), lepers, and other sick & disfigured people. You really think his reaction to innocent people being slaughtered by war would be to turn them away? Given the story of the Bible, do you really think Jesus would have cared even if these people wanted to murder him? From Matthew 5: "And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?" Betsy you're just creating more lines in the sand. The same things that divided Catholics and Protestants, Shia and Sunni...you want to divide Christians and everyone else. Well if your interpretation of 2 John is right we must ban atheists and Jews and Hindus from Canada because they also don't believe Jesus is the son of God. Muslims believe in the same god you do, but only follow a different prophet. Funny thing is you don't distrust Muslims, only the caricature of Muslims that's been drawn for you in the media, because you only hear news stories of the thousands that are trying to kill us. How many of the 1.6 billion other Muslims that aren't trying to kill us have you actually had a conversation with? You hardly know ANYTHING about Muslims or Islam. Your entire attitude about this tells me you read the Bible but somehow you don't even understand (or choose to ignore) what Jesus was all about. READ BETWEEN THE LINES! I was raised Christian, in a Christian church, in Christian schools....this nonsense isn't what I was taught. Edited March 30, 2017 by Moonlight Graham 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 6 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: Do you really think Jesus, if he were alive today, would support turning away other humans fleeing war and death just because they don't believe he's the son of god? Canada brings in about 300,000 immigrants a year. That number is divided up into a certain percentage for each category. The largest percentage are people who will contribute to Canada's economy and not be a burden on our social services. Another category is family re-unification. A smaller category are legitimate refugees. The economy can only take a certain number of refugees per year otherwise it would cause major problems in all sorts of ways. There are literally millions of people fleeing wars in the world. It is impossible to take the vast numbers of refugees in different parts of the world as it would cause a major disruption and cost to Canadians. Housing and jobs must be provided for immigrants. They cannot be dumped onto the streets. The numbers have to be limited and controlled. Canada is only able to help a tiny fraction of the millions suffering in the world. So in effect, millions are turned away. There are many other countries in the world who should be doing their part as well. Jesus was not into politics and numbers of refugees a country should take. Those decisions are up to a country to make. There are many issues to consider when a government decides the numbers. There is nothing that says Canada must take a certain number of refugees and nothing says Canada must open it's borders to any number of people. Every country has the sovereign right to determine how many people and who it will allow in. Edited March 31, 2017 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, blackbird said: Jesus was not into politics and numbers of refugees a country should take. Those decisions are up to a country to make. There are many issues to consider when a government decides the numbers. There is nothing that says Canada must take a certain number of refugees and nothing says Canada must open it's borders to any number of people. Every country has the sovereign right to determine how many people and who it will allow in. Well sure but when it says we recognize the supremacy of God right at the very top of our Constitution it seems quite reasonable to ask what Jesus would do. Even more so when the answer is as ridiculous as Betsy's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 hour ago, blackbird said: Jesus was not into politics and numbers of refugees a country should take. Oh I think Jesus was very political. The state was threatened enough by him that they executed him, didn't they? Quote Those decisions are up to a country to make. There are many issues to consider when a government decides the numbers. There is nothing that says Canada must take a certain number of refugees and nothing says Canada must open it's borders to any number of people. Every country has the sovereign right to determine how many people and who it will allow in. I'm not saying I support X number of refugees entering Canada. I'm saying Jesus would very likely support most of them with open arms...then try to convert them Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Moonlight Graham said: Oh I think Jesus was very political. The state was threatened enough by him that they executed him, didn't they? I'm not saying I support X number of refugees entering Canada. I'm saying Jesus would very likely support most of them with open arms...then try to convert them No, I don't think so. Canada has a population of 36 million. There are millions of refugees in the world. Canada would be overwhelmed and destroyed if it tried to take in millions of refugees. We would become a third world country in dire poverty and ruin. Not something Jesus advocated. He never advocated marxism either. Liberation theology is a marxist ideology of taking by force from those that have (government stealing) and giving it to everyone else. Stealing is contrary to what Jesus taught. It was advocated by some marxist priests in central and south America decades ago. Back to the bible. Edited March 31, 2017 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 58 minutes ago, eyeball said: Well sure but when it says we recognize the supremacy of God right at the very top of our Constitution it seems quite reasonable to ask what Jesus would do. Even more so when the answer is as ridiculous as Betsy's. So what would Jesus do about what? We need government that respects christianity and the sanctity of life. Life is sacred from the moment of conception to natural death. Governments that allow abortion and doctor-assisted suicide are acting contrary to the will of God. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 1 minute ago, blackbird said: We need government that respects christianity and the sanctity of life. Life is sacred from the moment of conception to natural death. Governments that allow abortion and doctor-assisted suicide are acting contrary to the will of God. We need government that isn't directed by religious belief. You don't have to have an abortion and you don't have to take part in assisted suicide; that is your right. But you don't have the right to impose your religious beliefs on me through my government. That is no different than a Muslim believing that Sharia law should be the law of the land and imposed on non-Muslims. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 21 minutes ago, blackbird said: So what would Jesus do about what? We need government that respects christianity and the sanctity of life. Life is sacred from the moment of conception to natural death. Governments that allow abortion and doctor-assisted suicide are acting contrary to the will of God. Life is not sacred. Life is an accident. Anyone who doesn't want to give birth should be allowed to abort. For any reason they like. Anyone who does not want to live should be allowed and helped to stop. For whatever reason they like. Edited March 31, 2017 by bcsapper Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 40 minutes ago, dialamah said: We need government that isn't directed by religious belief. You don't have to have an abortion and you don't have to take part in assisted suicide; that is your right. But you don't have the right to impose your religious beliefs on me through my government. That is no different than a Muslim believing that Sharia law should be the law of the land and imposed on non-Muslims. No. This is where you do not understand the difference between western culture and ME Sharia law type of government. Most western laws are actually based on Judeo-christian values. Take for example laws against stealing, killing, and the right to own private property. The right to a fair trial. Basic freedoms like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association are things unique to Judeo-christian culture and do not exist in totalitarian states in other parts of the world. Sharia law makes a man worth twice as much or more than a woman, Man may beat his wife under certain guidelines. Hands may be cut off for stealing. Heads cut off for certain offenses. Female genital mutilation allowed in certain Sharia countries. No such thing as freedom of religion or freedom of speech. You must submit to Sharia in those countries. Western democracies which derive their laws from christian principles have a different view of humanity and individual freedom and responsibilities. Responsibility also goes with individual basic rights; for example respect for human life. In a democratic society anyone is free to advocate their personal beliefs and government is free to take them into account when writing the laws. Whether I agree or disagree with your point of view, you still have the right to advocate what you believe and try to convince your MP or government to do what you think. Everyone has that right regardless of whether the basis of their belief is religious or atheist or agnostic. Edited March 31, 2017 by blackbird Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 I understand that it doesn't matter what religion we're talking about, if religion is 'in charge', women and minorities are second class citizens and draconian laws and punishments are meted out for people who don't toe the line. It happens in Islam now, it happened in the past with Christianity and is still happening in closed Christian groups within Western societies and in third world Christian countries. I don't want a Christian government any more than I want an Islamic government. I want a secular government that doesn't consider itself bound by centuries old contradictory stories and looks to science to understand the universe and our place in it, and not some mythical being. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
segnosaur Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 9 hours ago, blackbird said: No. This is where you do not understand the difference between western culture and ME Sharia law type of government. Most western laws are actually based on Judeo-christian values. Take for example laws against stealing, killing, and the right to own private property. The right to a fair trial. Basic freedoms like freedom of speech, freedom of religion, freedom of association are things unique to Judeo-christian culture and do not exist in totalitarian states in other parts of the world. You are making 2 fundamental mistakes: 1) You are incorrectly assuming that these laws (e.g. against stealing, killing, etc.) are rooted in Judeo-christian values. Restrictions on activities like those are actually common in many cultures, and many of the other things you mentioned (e.g. freedom of speech, fair trial, etc.) come not from Judeo-Christian values but from more secular activites (such as the Magnacarta, which more of a political document than a religious one.. 2) You are ignoring all of the restrictions that supposedly exist in the Judeo-christian culture (e.g. thou shalt not commit adultary) that are NOT part of our legal system Ultimately, I think your biggest mistake is that you are assuming all of western culture is "Judeo-Christian" without actually defining what that term actually means. Just because some of our ancestors may have lived in a part of the world controlled by the catholic church does not mean all elements of our law and culture are traced back to biblical ideals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted March 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 (edited) 51 minutes ago, segnosaur said: You are making 2 fundamental mistakes: 1) You are incorrectly assuming that these laws (e.g. against stealing, killing, etc.) are rooted in Judeo-christian values. Restrictions on activities like those are actually common in many cultures, Which actually, is an argument that supports the existence of the Christian God. Edited March 31, 2017 by betsy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Goddess Posted March 31, 2017 Report Share Posted March 31, 2017 I believe that some things are "hard-wired" into us, as humans. The majority of humans do not murder, rape, steal from others, etc, not because a law or a holy book forbids it, but because it feels wrong and we have empathy for fellow humans. Where this disconnects: is with humans who (for whatever reason, and I think there are many) lack empathy. The other disconnect is in regard to religion. I don't know WHY but people can turn away from their "human-ness" when instructed by religion to do so. For example: I don't believe most men either want or prefer to have sex with small girls. But if a religion tells them it's okay and even preferred, then for some reason it overrides the natural empathy we have, they go along with it. Another: it's not natural for parents to reject their own children. But in the name of religion, they will shut their hearts down and disown them. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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