Should Canadian citizenship be revoked?

[Rue]

5 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Ok, still haven't heard from PIK.

Anyway, I searched the article for 'white' and only found references to white slaves, nothing about there being fewer white traders than other races.

Guess you missed this:

The Arab slave trade was the practice of slavery in the Arab world, mainly in Western Asia, North Africa, Southeast Africa, the Horn of Africa and certain parts of Europe (such as Iberia and Sicily). This barter occurred chiefly between the medieval era and the early 21st century. The trade was conducted through slave markets in these areas, with the slaves captured mostly from Africa's interior.

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v t e

The Arab slave trade was the practice of slavery in the Arab world, mainly in Western Asia, North Africa, Southeast Africa, the Horn of Africa and certain parts of Europe (such as Iberia and Sicily). This barter occurred chiefly between the medieval era and the early 21st century. The trade was conducted through slave markets in these areas, with the slaves captured mostly from Africa's interior

 

 

The trade of slaves across the Sahara and across the Indian Ocean also has a long history, beginning with the control of sea routes by Muslim Arab and Swahili traders on the Swahili Coast during the ninth century (see Sultanate of Zanzibar). These traders captured Bantu peoples (Zanj) from the interior in present-day Kenya, Mozambique and Tanzania and brought them to the littoral.^[1][2] There, the slaves gradually assimilated in the rural areas, particularly on the Unguja and Pemba islands.^[3]

The captives were sold throughout the Middle East. This trade accelerated as superior ships led to more trade and greater demand for labour on plantations in the region. Eventually, tens of thousands of captives were being taken every year.^[3][4][5] The Indian Ocean slave trade was multi-directional and changed over time. To meet the demand for menial labor, Bantu slaves bought by Arab slave traders from southeastern Africa were sold in cumulatively large numbers over the centuries to customers in Egypt, Arabia, the Persian Gulf, India, European colonies in the Far East, the Indian Ocean islands, Ethiopia and Somalia.^[6][7]

 

[Benz]

On ‎2017‎-‎03‎-‎23 at 0:22 PM, blackbird said:

How about after he serves his sentence in Canada, then revoke his Canadian citizenship and send him back to his other country.

hmmm! I do not think we should have a fixed rule on that. An evaluation should be done. If we see that he does not learn anything and still have the same mindset, kick/ban him out of the country. Sometimes people learn from their mistakes and they are changed. Not only he would not be a threat anymore, he would be useful because he can share his exprience going through the conditionning or mindset that lead him to this.

Si I am not oppose to the revoke, but I am not in its automatic application either.

[Michael Hardner]

I don't think I missed it - but unless I missed the key fact that I requested a cite for we're still nowhere.  That's fine, I'll move on now.

[PIK]

16 hours ago, Michael Hardner said:

Here is the claim PIK made:

blacks and muslims have sold more slaves than poor old whitey

Can PIK back up his claim ?  That is my question to PIK.

Just what I have read over the yrs. Maybe take the time and do some research on it. You will be amazed at what you find. History is a amazing thing and what you can learn. But I see some others have done that for me, thanks guys.

[PIK]

I googled what I have said and the lists are endless. And I am not saying whitey did nothing wrong, just the fact that others were just as bad.

Edited March 24, 2017 by PIK

[bush_cheney2004]

1 hour ago, PIK said:

Just what I have read over the yrs. Maybe take the time and do some research on it. You will be amazed at what you find. History is a amazing thing and what you can learn. But I see some others have done that for me, thanks guys.

 

Yes...your original assertion was correct and immune from the usual revisionist history attack.   The slave trade in Canada, U.S. and Americas was dwarfed by volume and longer history elsewhere:

https://www.amren.com/features/2017/02/black-slavery-middle-east/

Edited March 24, 2017 by bush_cheney2004

[Rue]

Well first off I need to point out that Argus was correct in his assertion that blacks played a role in the slave trade in Africa. On reading back my response to him I could and should be been clearer and stated while they did capture the slaves they didn't own them  as much as the Arabs or Europeans did but Argus is correct they did not just capture and sell slaves but they owned them as well.

I also stated and so did PIK and Michael H questioned what he said.

I stated and now will provide citations that shows that:

1-the Arab slave trade went on longer than the European one

2-Argus is right on his previous comments

3-so was PIK

4-Arabs Europeans, blacks, Jews we all engaged in slavery.

Now to start and be specific there was a group of Jews in the Ottoman Empire in Constantinople who traded slaves and they were in fact violating Jewish religion butt hey did it. There were some Jews from Britain and the US as well who got involved in it. Its crazy because Jews were once slaves so the religion expressly forbids it.

These were a minority of Jews but they did engage in it. Then of course there was wide spread slave trading in Europe, America and the Arab world but the Arab slave trade went on much longer and actually American slave trade was not as long as European slave trade.

That said I am providing these cites just to provide info. Slavery was wrong period. The point I was raising is there is a double standard used in narratives on this board about past history-like Bush Chaney I can't stand revisionists changing history for political reasons of propriety.

I also trust this will directly address any remaining questions Michael H. had of me:

1. Black African involvement in slavery:

cite: http://discoveringbristol.org.uk/slavery/people-involved/traders-merchants-planters/slave-traders/african-slave-traders/

·         enslaved Africans bought by the Europeans were sold by African slave traders. In West Africa there are many different cultures and societies

·         The West Africans who most prospered in the transatlantic slave trade were those from the most warlike and tightly organised societies with strong rulers who preyed on their neighbours. These societies would be more likely to wage war on their neighbouring communities, enslave prisoners of war and trade them to the Europeans

·         The rulers of these societies usually appointed caboceers (traders) to deal with European slave traders

·         Many, such as the caboceer from the Fante people, John Currantee, or the leader from the Efik people Ephraim Robin John (known to the European traders as King George) were well-known as canny and ruthless dealers

·         They were able to communicate in a number of European and African languages.

·         The African slave traders were skilled in using to their advantage the rivalries between the French, the English and the Dutch to get the best prices for their slaves

·         Often they demanded (and received) ‘gifts’ or ‘custom fees’, known in some quarters as ‘dashee’, from the European

 

 

cite: http://www.newafricanmagazine.com/slavery-atlantic-trade-and-arab-slavery

“There is an even more painful issue to consider. The Europeans did not wage wars to capture and enslave Africans. They bought them from Africans, who sold prisoners-of-war to them. Yes, the Europeans encouraged wars – to ensure that they obtained the number of enslaved they wanted. Clearly, some Africans, and not only coastal peoples, were willing to participate. An example of the latter were the kings of Asante, who conquered peoples to their north for export to the European slave “forts” along the coast. Thus their already immense wealth from trade in gold and kola nuts was vastly increased. And it was these wealthy merchants who first sent their children to Europe to acquire western education, and thus became the “natural” native leaders and “professionals” within the colonies – and eventually the first members of Legislative Assemblies, etc. So are those claiming reparations going to make a claim from these Africans also? “

 

2. American slavery was shorter in time span than European slavery which was shorter in time span than Arab slavery

 

cite: http://www.wisegeek.com/how-did-the-african-slave-trade-begin.htm

·         the slave trade inside Africa itself was common in Ghana and Nigeria in the 18th century, where the countries' economies depended largely on the selling of hand labor to neighboring estates

·         slavery inside Africa was often not for life; slaves had the option of buying their liberty, and were normally paid enough that they could do it after a certain number of years

·         African slave trade became common in Europe first, starting with Portugal, who took slaves to Brazil to mine the mountains in the 1700’s

·         the Caribbean soon followed, and then other countries of South and Central America

·         the US-African slave trade was far smaller than that managed by other countries

·         of all slaves to reach America, only 4.4 percent ended up in North American territory

·         Britain stopped slavery in 1807, although slaves were not officially declared free until 1833, when the Slavery Abolition Act was passed

·         rest of Europe followed close behind, with certain African countries forbidding slavery early in the 20th century

3. Arab Slavery was longer in duration than European slavery and probably worse

cite: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arab_slave_trade

·         the Arab slave trade was the practice of slavery in the Arab world, mainly in Western Asia, North Africa, Southeast Africa, the Horn of Africa and certain parts of Europe (such as Iberia and Sicily)

·         this barter occurred chiefly between the medieval era and the early 21st century

·         the trade was conducted through slave markets in these areas, with the slaves captured mostly from Africa's interior

·         Arabs killed more Africans in transit, especially when crossing the Sahara Desert, than Europeans and Americans, and over more centuries, both before and after the years of the Atlantic slave trade

·         Arab Muslims began extracting millions of black African slaves centuries before Christian nations did

·         Arab slave traders removed slaves from Africa for about 13 centuries, compared to three centuries of the Atlantic slave trade

·         African slaves transported by Arabs across the Sahara Desert died more often than slaves making the Middle Passage to the New World by ship

·         Slaves invariably died within five years if they worked in the Ottoman Empire’s Sahara salt mines

·         Black Africans did not enjoy immunities to many of the diseases found in the Arab world, which also resulted in high death rates

·         Slaveholders in the Muslim world often castrated black African male slaves to serve as harem guards-this is a prime reason there are not many communities of blacks living in the non-African Muslim world today, despite the millions of black African slaves sold into the Muslim world

·         many African boys did not survive their castration surgery

·         African women were enslaved by Arabs more than African men

·         In 1860, when 3,000 black female slaves were set free in Zanzibar, only 5% of them had children

·         since under Islamic law a concubine bearing the child of the master could become a wife and her children would then share in the inheritance, Middle Eastern wives and children of masters had a strong incentive to interfere with the sex lives of female slaves and cause brutal abortions

·         Islamic jurisprudence historically allowed abortions in the first four months of pregnancy, long before the West allowed it-Islamic tradition supports the view that the soul enters the fetus at 120 days-if a concubine had the only son, the threat to the wife was even greate

·         The Koran allowed Muslim men to have as many concubines as they could afford, in addition to four wives.

·         The Arab history of anti-black racism predates European anti-black racism by several centuries

·         The early Islamic empire exhibited all the characteristics of anti-black racism, and blacks suffered the lowest form of bondage

·         The main reasons we have not heard more about the horrors of slavery in the Muslim world are that Muslims did not express moral outrage against slavery and wrote no abolitionist literature against the institution of slavery

·         The moral outrage against slavery was and is, in the grand historical context, a European-inspired cause gaining significant traction only in the 1760s

·         As late as 1960, African Muslims still sold slaves when they arrived on pilgrimages, as a way to finance their pilgrimages. Arab nations lagged far behind the rest of the world in abolishing slavery: Saudi Arabia and Yemen in 1962, United Arab Emirates in 1963, Oman in 1970 and Mauritania officially in 1981. Today, according to U.S. State Department figures, Muslim nations condone international human trafficking more than Western countries do.

·         David Livingstone observed in Africa the horrendous slave trading practices of Arab and pagan slave traders, decades after Great Britain had begun to suppress the international slave trade, and almost a century after Lord Mansfield, with the stroke of a pen, freed slaves in England

·         The Ottoman Empire resisted British efforts to suppress slavery and the slave trade

·         Over the course of 70 years, 2,000 British sailors died to free 160,000 slaves. While Islam urged improved treatment of slaves in some ways, the rapid expansion of the Muslim empire rapidly increased the number of slaves, leading to crueler treatment. Africa and the Middle East never developed the moral abolitionist fervor seen in Western nations. Slavery is now most prominent in Africa.

·         From the time of the Crusades until the early 1800’s, Barbary pirates or corsairs from Muslim North Africa raided European coasts and waters, selling captive Europeans as slaves in North African ports and Istanbul

4. Even Black Americans owned slaves

cite: http://conservative-headlines.com/2012/03/americas-first-slave-owner-was-a-black-man/

·         Anthony Johnson sued Robert Parker in the Northampton Court in 1654. In 1655, the court ruled that Anthony Johnson could hold John Casor indefinitely. The court gave judicial sanction for blacksto own slave of their own race. Thus Casor became the first permanent slave and Johnson the first slave owner

·         By 1830 there were 3,775 black families living in the South who owned black slaves. By 1860 there were about 3,000 slaves owned by black households in the city of New Orleans alone

 

Edited March 24, 2017 by Rue

[Charlie]

What do you guys think about a Canadian who was born and bred in Canada. Should we deport him too? 

[OftenWrong]

12 minutes ago, Charlie said:

What do you guys think about a Canadian who was born and bred in Canada. Should we deport him too? 

I don't see how deporting citizens is possible, whether born in Canada or emigrated. Once they've renounced the citizenship of their homeland, they are no longer entitled to re-enter their old country any more so than a visitor or immigrant would be. Assuming they are a criminal which Canada wants to deport, their native country has no obligation to let them in.

Landed immigrants in Canada is a different story and deportation law already exists for those who commit certain crimes.

[Guest]

26 minutes ago, Charlie said:

What do you guys think about a Canadian who was born and bred in Canada. Should we deport him too? 

How could you do that?  Where would they go?  

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, OftenWrong said:

I don't see how deporting citizens is possible, whether born in Canada or emigrated. Once they've renounced the citizenship of their homeland, they are no longer entitled to re-enter their old country any more so than a visitor or immigrant would be. Assuming they are a criminal which Canada wants to deport, their native country has no obligation to let them in.

Landed immigrants in Canada is a different story and deportation law already exists for those who commit certain crimes.

You don't necessarily have to renounce your original citizenship when you take Canadian citizenship. I didn't.  You could deport me back to the UK if you wanted. 

[Charlie]

1 hour ago, bcsapper said:

How could you do that?  Where would they go?  

Gitmo ? 

Not that Canadian government hasn't tried it before:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr   

Edited March 27, 2017 by Charlie

[kactus]

4 hours ago, OftenWrong said:

I don't see how deporting citizens is possible, whether born in Canada or emigrated. Once they've renounced the citizenship of their homeland, they are no longer entitled to re-enter their old country any more so than a visitor or immigrant would be. Assuming they are a criminal which Canada wants to deport, their native country has no obligation to let them in.

Landed immigrants in Canada is a different story and deportation law already exists for those who commit certain crimes.

I agree with you in principle that deporting citizens that are born and emigrated doesn't make sense. And I have read people distinguishing the treatment between the immigrants (with citizenship) and born natives, which is disturbing.....

But didn't the Brits transferred all their native criminals to a land we all know as Australia and ironically deprived the native aboriginies from their own land?

The point is it has been tried and tested before and it worked only under the pre text of collonialism...

[Guest]

8 hours ago, Charlie said:

Gitmo ? 

Not that Canadian government hasn't tried it before:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr   

Well, any jail in a storm is good.  Vote of thanks for the US for helping out there.  Remind me to send them a Christmas card.  But generally deportation involves another country taking someone back.

[DogOnPorch]

2 minutes ago, bcsapper said:

Well, any jail in a storm is good.  Vote of thanks for the US for helping out there.  Remind me to send them a Christmas card.  But generally deportation involves another country taking someone back.

 

Ol' Omar could run for MP and win in Canada.

[PIK]

1 hour ago, DogOnPorch said:

 

Ol' Omar could run for MP and win in Canada.

Or mayor of toronto.

[Argus]

12 hours ago, Charlie said:

What do you guys think about a Canadian who was born and bred in Canada. Should we deport him too? 

If we had a place to deport them to...

[ZenOps]

I think it should cost $166,000 US to renounce a US citizenship (currently a bargain at $2,350)

Depending on what generation you are from, you can either view a citizenship as a blessing or a trap.  As time moves forward and at its current tradgectory, it will become a trap very quickly.

Revoking a citizenship for free as a penalty?  I don't understand the logic at all, anyone born in the last 15 years can probably see how citizenship can and is now becoming a huge liability and not an asset.

Edited April 9, 2017 by ZenOps

[Army Guy]

On 3/27/2017 at 2:26 AM, Charlie said:

Gitmo ? 

Not that Canadian government hasn't tried it before:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omar_Khadr   

Are you saying that Canadians should not be tried by other nations for crimes they have committed against them ....Young Omar was lucky that he was not tried in Afghanistan for crimes of terrorism.....some how i don't think he would be with us today if he was.....That being said Canadians all around the world are paying for their crimes they have committed in other countries....how does this even come close to what we were discussing....Some being held in much worse conditions than young Omar...