Newfoundlander Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 2 hours ago, bcsapper said: Because we're a compassionate, caring country who wants to do all we can to make the world a better place. Not very compassionate if new Canadians are treated as second class citizens compared to those who happened to be born here. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 18 minutes ago, Newfoundlander said: Not very compassionate if new Canadians are treated as second class citizens compared to those who happened to be born here. That's not where the compassion is used. The compassion comes in opening your doors to those in need, and giving them the chance at a better life for them and their families. If they can't keep to their side of the bargain, that's their fault. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 4 hours ago, bcsapper said: That's not where the compassion is used. The compassion comes in opening your doors to those in need, and giving them the chance at a better life for them and their families. If they can't keep to their side of the bargain, that's their fault. But why are we saying that they have Canadian citizenship when it's not equal to those who were born here? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 What would happen to them? Would other countries be obligated to take them in if Canada deports these "ex-citizens"? No. Debating this seems like a moot point. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted March 19, 2017 Report Share Posted March 19, 2017 24 minutes ago, OftenWrong said: What would happen to them? Would other countries be obligated to take them in if Canada deports these "ex-citizens"? No. Debating this seems like a moot point. They'd lose their Canadian citizenship and be deported to whichever country they were born in. An extremely stupid policy. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 52 minutes ago, Newfoundlander said: They'd lose their Canadian citizenship and be deported to whichever country they were born in. An extremely stupid policy. It seems pretty sane to me. It seems extremely stupid to let someone who does bad things stay in one's country to continue to do them. Just make sure they are aware of the situation before showing them the dotted line. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moonlight Graham Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) 7 hours ago, Newfoundlander said: Not very compassionate if new Canadians are treated as second class citizens compared to those who happened to be born here. So if somebody lied on their citizenship application you would not revoke it? If somebody broke their sworn oath, a legal pronouncement, they should be given legal immunity? New Canadians are Canadians and they are very welcome here, but if you break laws involved in the process of attaining that very citizenship, why not make people accountable to the rule of law? Citizenship comes with rights but also responsibilities, and they're very easy to follow. Edited March 20, 2017 by Moonlight Graham Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 8 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: So if somebody lied on their citizenship application you would not revoke it? If somebody broke their sworn oath, a legal pronouncement, they should be given legal immunity? New Canadians are Canadians and they are very welcome here, but if you break laws involved in the process of attaining that very citizenship, why not make people accountable to the rule of law? Citizenship comes with rights but also responsibilities, and they're very easy to follow. The example that was used in this thread is of someone who came to Canada as a 13 year old kid. What do we do with terrorists born and raised in rural Ontario? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 13 hours ago, Moonlight Graham said: So if somebody lied on their citizenship application you would not revoke it? People engage in fake marriages to come over here, and the day after they get their papers they divorce or leave their spouse and face no penalties. In fact, the Liberals made it even easier for them to do so. The Tories had put a delay in to try and dissuade this kind of thing from happening and Trudeau eliminated it. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, Argus said: People engage in fake marriages to come over here, and the day after they get their papers they divorce or leave their spouse and face no penalties. In fact, the Liberals made it even easier for them to do so. The Tories had put a delay in to try and dissuade this kind of thing from happening and Trudeau eliminated it. You don't automatically become a Canadian citizen just because you marry one though. Nor do any immigrants/refugees become citizens as soon as hey move here. Edited March 20, 2017 by Newfoundlander 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 35 minutes ago, Newfoundlander said: You don't automatically become a Canadian citizen just because you marry one though. Nor do any immigrants/refugees become citizens as soon as hey move here. There's nothing 'automatic' about government, but once you marry and send in the forms and are given landed immigrant status, that's it. You're here for life. If you dump your spouse ten minutes after you arrive it makes no difference whatsoever. However, the sponsor is still responsible for paying for them. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/multimedia/video/marriage-fraud/marriage-fraud.asp 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 On 2017-03-14 at 11:21 PM, Moonlight Graham said: Zakaria Amara has been convicted to life imprisonment. Does it matter if he's a citizen or not? I don't want to deport him back to ie: Saudi Arabia or wherever, so he can do harm there. I'd rather lock him up for life here. It's a very good point. I have been away from this forum for a while. Sorry if I did not go through all posts in this thread before posting my opinion. I see another reason why we should not revoke citizenship based on terrorism acts. There are some immigrants that contacts the police when they are suspecting their children or relatives being possibly influenced by terrorist agents. They want to prevent the problem and are asking the help of the authorities. Now if those immigrants are afraid to see their relatives losing their citizenship because of association with terrorism, they might not contact the authorities this time. That reason alone is good enough to not revoke the citizenship. We do not want to escalate the fear. We want the people to be confident in our authorities to take care of the problem or potential problem. Prison for life for terrorists is good enough for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Benz Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 18 hours ago, Newfoundlander said: But why are we saying that they have Canadian citizenship when it's not equal to those who were born here? You cannot imagine how much I do not care about that. We can revoke the citizenship of a born canadian terrorist if you want. If that makes some sense to you. Immigrants being granted the citizenship is not a right, it's a priviledge. While being born in Canada and get the citizenship right away is a rather a right. As I mentionned in my previous post, making sure the new canadians feel safe to not lose citizenship of their own people they want to save from terrorism, is a reason so important that i makes your concern totally irrelevant. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 1 hour ago, Benz said: You cannot imagine how much I do not care about that. We can revoke the citizenship of a born canadian terrorist if you want. If that makes some sense to you. Immigrants being granted the citizenship is not a right, it's a priviledge. While being born in Canada and get the citizenship right away is a rather a right. As I mentionned in my previous post, making sure the new canadians feel safe to not lose citizenship of their own people they want to save from terrorism, is a reason so important that i makes your concern totally irrelevant. You're not really making any sense to me. But why exactly would we want to send someone who committed a terrorist attack back to whichever country they were born in? I'd feel much safer knowing they're locked up in a Canadian prison. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted March 20, 2017 Report Share Posted March 20, 2017 2 hours ago, Newfoundlander said: You're not really making any sense to me. But why exactly would we want to send someone who committed a terrorist attack back to whichever country they were born in? I'd feel much safer knowing they're locked up in a Canadian prison. If the terrorist act was committed in Canada then i would say yes, lock him up 25 years for every life taken.....however if the terrorist act was committed in another country, i would say take his citizenship, and put them on a plane....so no cost incurred to Canada for incarceration, stripping of citizen will deter them from coming back to Canada. Canadian prisons are a joke, summer retreats, sending them back is another form of punishment.... nothing like a good old fashioned Muslim prison.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OftenWrong Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 8 hours ago, Argus said: There's nothing 'automatic' about government, but once you marry and send in the forms and are given landed immigrant status, that's it. You're here for life. If you dump your spouse ten minutes after you arrive it makes no difference whatsoever. However, the sponsor is still responsible for paying for them. http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/department/media/multimedia/video/marriage-fraud/marriage-fraud.asp Well, last I heard landed immigrants can be deported under the law if they commit certain crimes. How a criminal conviction can lead to deportation Even if not deported, they might not be permitted to become citizens after committing certain offences (presumably felonies), leaving the door open for deportation in event of future crimes. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 20 hours ago, Newfoundlander said: You're not really making any sense to me. But why exactly would we want to send someone who committed a terrorist attack back to whichever country they were born in? I'd feel much safer knowing they're locked up in a Canadian prison. We don't KEEP them locked up. We're too nice for that. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 14 hours ago, OftenWrong said: Well, last I heard landed immigrants can be deported under the law if they commit certain crimes. That's nice. Irrelevant to what I said, but nice. And even deporting repeat criminals can take years of litigation - during which we pay both sides. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 57 minutes ago, Argus said: We don't KEEP them locked up. We're too nice for that. Then that law should change. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blackbird Posted March 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Argus said: We don't KEEP them locked up. We're too nice for that. It's a well known characteristic of Liberals/NDP to put the rights of criminals ahead of the rights of victims and the safety of citizens. This is proven by the fact the NDP/Liberals voted against laws the Conservatives put forward to toughen up the criminal laws to protect citizens. The law the Conservatives brought in to deport convicted terrorists with dual citizenship was opposed by the Liberals and NDP. Since Trudeau was elected, he changed the law to allow a convicted terrorist with dual citizenship to allow him to retain his Canadian citizenship and remain in Canada, not only putting Canadians at greater risk but costing taxpayers 100,000 dollars a year or more to keep people like that in prison. The law the Conservatives brought in to give more power to the RCMP and CSIS to protect Canadians from terrorism was opposed by the NDP and Liberals. They made the phony claim that citizens rights would be infringed on. They also claimed protesters of oil pipelines would have their rights hindered. More Lefty propaganda. If people are protesting legally, they would not be affected. Liberals promised to change that law. Not sure if they have changed it yet. Edited March 21, 2017 by blackbird 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PIK Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 On 3/19/2017 at 7:08 PM, Newfoundlander said: But why are we saying that they have Canadian citizenship when it's not equal to those who were born here? Because that is the way it is. . Why should someone that has been here a day get better treatment than someone whose family has been here for a few 100 yrs and has worked hard to make this country they way it is. What the problem is ,is white guilt that has taken over the left, just because what we did in 150 yrs where these refugee making countries have failed to do for 1000 yrs. And if we keep stealing their best and brightest, how in hell can they ever better themselves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Hardner Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 19 minutes ago, PIK said: 1) Why should someone that has been here a day get better treatment than someone whose family has been here for a few 100 yrs and has worked hard to make this country they way it is. 2) Just because what we did in 150 yrs where these refugee making countries have failed to do for 1000 yrs. And if we keep stealing their best and brightest, how in hell can they ever better themselves? 1) There really isn't a principle behind treating somebody better after 100 years of family citizenship, 50 years, 10 years, 1 year. It doesn't work that way now and how would it work ? People who have been here longer already have a natural advantage over newcomers anyway. And we treat Natives the worst of all so the whole model is upside down IMO. 2) "We" ? If you're going to credit peoples' citizenships with how hard they're working then crediting yourself due to your family's achievements vs. the uphill climb that any citizen has is ... well let's say it's off-putting. We can still talk about having two-tiered citizenship without these types of side discussions anyway. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Newfoundlander Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 2 hours ago, PIK said: Because that is the way it is. . Why should someone that has been here a day get better treatment than someone whose family has been here for a few 100 yrs and has worked hard to make this country they way it is. What the problem is ,is white guilt that has taken over the left, just because what we did in 150 yrs where these refugee making countries have failed to do for 1000 yrs. And if we keep stealing their best and brightest, how in hell can they ever better themselves? So were the people that built this country 100 years ago not as "Canadian" as you because their roots in the country weren't as deep? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dialamah Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 22 hours ago, Army Guy said: Canadian prisons are a joke, People come out of Canadian prisons with PTSD due to the violence and living conditions, so its not really that much of a joke. You might think that doesn't matter, they're criminals and shouldn't have it rough. That's not a problem until they get out of prison and can't function effectively in society because of it. I think @Newfoundlander makes a good point that deporting terrorists may only make them more of a threat because unless that country agrees to jail that person permanently, they can simply work from outside the country. How likely is it that Canada has agreements with all these countries to jail people our legal system has convicted? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted March 21, 2017 Report Share Posted March 21, 2017 24 minutes ago, dialamah said: @NewfoundlanderPeople come out of Canadian prisons with PTSD due to the violence and living conditions, Not women, I bet. Kill and rape some people and you get to live at a holiday camp if you're a woman. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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