Derek 2.0 Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 7 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Surplus, smurplus, there was no surplus. Yes there was........but its sure gone now!!! 8 minutes ago, ?Impact said: b.t.w. we were over 1.4% of GDP for military spending in 2009 & 2010 and then Harper got his coveted majority and brought us down to less than 1%. Interesting revision of history.......Harper reduced funding to the DND both when we ended our mission in Afghanistan (Why pay for a war we are no longer fighting?) and like every department, during the fiscal crisis............ Regardless, Harper is no longer the head of the government, nor will this demand by the Trump administration be his problem..... 16 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Any imaginary surplus you are claiming would have been on the backs of soldiers anyway. No, the only cuts to members pay and benefits has been on the part of the Trudeau Liberals and their clawing back of tax free status for those serving in combat zones. 18 minutes ago, ?Impact said: Stop with the silly partisan finger pointing Ahh but it was you that went down this road, I simply made a factual observation as to this Governments ability, when it so desires, to spend billions into deficit........an observation very much topical on a subject that will require a further increase in annual spending. 22 minutes ago, ?Impact said: If everyone is not willing to cough up 7% increase in their taxes (personal, corporate, GST, tariffs, etc.) then something has to give. If this government raises taxes to pay for billions more for defense, the only thing that will give will be its own electoral chances in 2019.......This government truly is in a pickle, and like most of the World, was caught off guard with the Trump win. 2 hours ago, SpankyMcFarland said: OK then, that sounds reasonable to me. Still a challenge but less so given the way things are going in Europe. A challenge for sure, but then, if this government were smart, it would attempt to narrow the gap through deficit spending on both infrastructure and the purchasing of big ticket items, in essence one off purchases versus sunk costs associated with a massive increase in the number of personal...........buy the actual items the military needs, spread it out over the next several years and hope normalcy returns (and/or commodity prices) in the next few years. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 13 hours ago, Army Guy said: Vice President gives NATO members another warning, if your spending 2 % or more then you need to pressure other nations into doing it as well, if you have a plan to spend 2 % then you need to accelerate it . and if you don't have a plan ,"get one" dead line is 2018...... Already our PM has said we are stepping up to the plate with troops.....this is how our nation pays makes it's contributions...Bullshit....how can Canadians expect to be part of an alliance that states in it's constitution that each member "MUST" spend a minimum of 2 % GDP....it also states it must provide troops and equipment when asked to do so......not one or the other..... Currently Canada spends less than .99% of GDP....I wonder, what Trump and trudeau talked about during their first meeting....we know NAFTA was on the table, what we don't know is if defense spending was a topic.....and if so what was said....one would have hoped the clear and transparent Liberal government would not keep us in the dark.....But then again, what do we know we still speculating about the admiral firing...... Perhaps this is what our country needs is to be forced to spend our share of defense costs for our defence pacts we have signed onto....We know this is going to kick most Canadians in the balls as it is their least favorite topic.....I just hope the trump administration keeps it's word, by applying the right pressure .....Now the US has already said pay up or the US will pull out, and if that is the case , then NATO will become a toothless organization with out them. So how does this effect Canada....well Canada will have to decide if it's european partners are worth spending any funding on, we all know the answer to that one, Canadians are not worth it , how will euro's make out........Or will they also decide to pull out.....One can also say that Canada will atleast have to pick up it's share of the Norad Tab, which is currently is less than 10 % today.....But the US might also ask to pony up for our share of Naval and Army costs to protect North America.....either way, those sunny days are over for all the major parties riding the wave to the beach might have a cost to it........Canada will have to pay its share of the Defense of this nation....instead of free loading , and doing squat with all that funding we save by being cheap bastards....... Trudeau is trying to pull a fast one. I don't think USA will buy that. If they did, then every country that sends troops will say they're contributing "qualitatively" to NATO. It's humiliating for Canada. Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 16 hours ago, ?Impact said: Just to make things clear, doubling our spending on defence means a 7% increase in federal revenue (income tax, sales tax, tariffs, etc.) across the board. No, it could also mean re-prioritizing existing spending. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 15 hours ago, The_Squid said: Canada will always do what is in Canada's interest... we don't give away our sovereignty that easily... But we gave it away decades ago. We decided we'd rather give in to the Americans and let them take care of it than pay for things ourselves. Now Trump is in the White House and Trump doesn't see things in isolation. He links things together. I can EASILY see him linking our NATO contributions to whatever trade deals he chooses to make. He has to know how important a trade deal is for Canada. If he starts threatening import duties, maybe, in his mind, to help compensate America for the money we're not spending on NATO even though we agreed to it, then our 'interests' are going to quickly require we put more money into the military. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 14 hours ago, ?Impact said: Yes, that is why we never again should elect a "Conservative" government. Canada however will rebuild. Don't shake the hand of the Great Satan. Your obsessions are getting the better of you again. No one has been more critical of the Harper government on defense than I have, but they didn't start the neglect of our military. That started back in Trudeau Senior's day, and has continued, largely unabated, through every government, Liberal, PC and Conservative, since then. Just as it continues today under Trudeau junior. I have ZERO doubts that were it not for Trump, the upcoming budget, where the Liberals need to start to address their rising deficits, would target the military for big cuts. AGAIN. Edited February 21, 2017 by Argus 3 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 13 hours ago, ?Impact said: Not sure where you get that figure from. I have been trying to find it, and while I can get good breakdown by program there is no detail by personal vs. equipment. If your figure is correct, then we are spending $120k/person, both uniformed and civilian. While there are no doubt some that make that and much more, I expect on both sides there are a lot of entry level soldiers and even civilians. Look at the income alone of soldiers. The normal enlisted rank is corporal. They earn roughly $60,000 a year as a base. On top of that they get increments and specialist pay. Add benefits to that. Benefits in the military are higher than any other job. Usually benefits add between 30%-50% to the cost of each employee. I would suggest it's higher for the military. Then you have the cost of all the gear/equipment they need in their jobs. That's everything from tanks, fighters, uniforms and naval ships to computers, desks, and the usual buildings, energy and heat for offices. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Argus Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 12 hours ago, dre said: This is stupid. We should be encouraging the whole world to spend less, including our potential adversaries. The likely "allied" powers already spendi about 40 times what the likely "axis" powers do. This is a joke. Mike Pense can go fvck himself. Because encouraging dictators to spend less on their mliitary always works out so well... The reason the West spends so much more on their military is largely because of personnel costs. The Russians, Chinese, North Koreans, Iranians, etc., don't pay very high salaries or benefits. They don't need to as they all have the draft. So that huge additional cost the West puts into its military doesn't translate into more tanks, ships or airplanes, nor more people. It just translates into higher paid soldiers. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
-1=e^ipi Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 Leave NATO. Slash military expenditure to half a percent of GDP or less. It's a waste of money and all NATO does is mean we will be forced to defend that fascist Erdogan if he decides to shoot down Russian jets as Russia fights ISIS. NATO is nothing but a relic of the past that makes no sense in today's geopolitical climate. People need to get over the cold war; it ended decades ago. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 2 hours ago, Argus said: Your obsessions are getting the better of you again. No one has been more critical of the Harper government on defense than I have, but they didn't start the neglect of our military. That started back in Trudeau Senior's day I think it is your obsessions that are getting the better of you. I suggest you look up the track record of Diefenbaker. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 19 hours ago, Army Guy said: I did not sit in my comfy chair in the basement, watching porn, and talking what is patriotic and what is not ,on public forums I think you're doing that right now... I doubt you ever served in any army. I don't think you're telling the truth. Seems everyone is a millionaire or served in the Rangers on internet forums... 4 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 20 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said: President Trump is not the first to point out NATO spending deadbeats like Canada and Germany. Obama said the same thing...in Ottawa. Next time, don't call the USA to tow Canada's broke dick ships back to port. ....or try to hitch a ride on USA copters. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 12 minutes ago, betsy said: ....or try to hitch a ride on USA copters. what are you talking about? 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betsy Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 (edited) 6 minutes ago, The_Squid said: what are you talking about? Quote Too often, Canadian Forces either have to hitch-hike, or take a cab. In this case, they are taking a cab – Canada has rented Russian Antonov cargo planes to ship DART equipment. The Canadian military hasn’t had a large lift capacity for some time now. In 1992, we relied on the U.S. Air Force to transport some of our armoured vehicles to Somalia. In 2002, we used civilian rentals and U.S. military aircraft to deploy infantry to Afghanistan. During the 1998 ice storm in eastern Canada, Canada rented planes and turned the Americans to move our troops and equipment across our own country. http://colinkenny.ca/en/Flying-by-the-Seat-of-Our-Pants-Canadas-Rental-Response-to-Disaster Quote Defence cuts have left Canadian military in ‘fragile’ shape: Rick Hillier http://news.nationalpost.com/news/canada/canadian-politics/canadian-military-could-be-on-verge-of-new-decade-of-darkness-rick-hillier Edited February 21, 2017 by betsy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 21, 2017 Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 6 minutes ago, betsy said: During the 1998 ice storm in eastern Canada, Canada rented planes and turned the Americans to move our troops and equipment across our own country. Smart moves... rent the equipment from USA which has plenty of military equipment. We don't need to pay for the stuff just to have it sit around and wait for the next ice storm. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 21, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2017 21 hours ago, ?Impact said: That is the biggest danger here. Increase in defence spending is simply going to funnel its way into (mostly) American corporations. Perhaps that is the Trump goal, boot the American economy by trying to force his "friends" to buy more American arms. Any penny of defence spending should ensure that 100% of the money goes into Canadian corporations, and for the most part just more Troops. Revive some of those old bases (money for construction kept in Canada), and ensure that equipment comes from Canadian manufactures without any out of country parent company (no General Motors, General Dynamics. etc.). We don't need more fancy high-tech weapon systems. How is it going to be funneled into strictly American companies, Most of our equipment is of European design, our armour vehs, the AOR design are german, in fact the new ships are European design, so other than Fighters, what major buy are we planing with the US. Canadian corporations, sometimes you liberal guys make me laugh, our defense industry produces what exactly, the LAV 6.0, designed for low to medium intensity conflicts. Why do we have to complicate a equipment purchase with this over riding factor, that in most cases provides DND with sub par equipment, Canada does not have any real defense industry, so why force our own nation to shop at home. I did'nt seem to bother the liberal government when it purchased new SAR Aircraft, when a home built was available..... Maybe you can name all those high tech wpns systems we have right now.. if no more high tech equipment what are we going to spend all that money on , improved wages.....new infra structure, maybe some more western star trucks, .....well some of that may be on the wish list, i'm sure there are alot of equipment purchases in there..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 20 hours ago, ?Impact said: Not sure where you get that figure from. I have been trying to find it, and while I can get good breakdown by program there is no detail by personal vs. equipment. If your figure is correct, then we are spending $120k/person, both uniformed and civilian. While there are no doubt some that make that and much more, I expect on both sides there are a lot of entry level soldiers and even civilians. Yes, certainly on the real high-end systems but they are not the bulk. Also we don't have to own the entire system, or even do final assembly as the shipbuilding contract is focused on, some of the high value subsystems are much more lucrative. Canadian military is the second highest paid military in the world, the first place winners are Australian.....below is a copy of wages in 2016, i think they have gone up since then by a small percentage, note the records say 2013 but they are current....according to a pay clerk...on top of that all civilian staff are public servants which although are not paid as high as DND, they don't come cheap... http://www.ottawasun.com/2014/10/30/canadas-military-among-highest-paid-in-the-world http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/caf-community-pay/pay-rates.page 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 20 hours ago, dre said: This is stupid. We should be encouraging the whole world to spend less, including our potential adversaries. The likely "allied" powers already spendi about 40 times what the likely "axis" powers do. This is a joke. Mike Pense can go fvck himself. And make no mistake about it... if we do increase spending it wont be to hire more soldiers or equip the ones we have better. It will be made purchasing super expensive stuff from government lobbying corporations. The US spends hundreds of billions on its military but troops still show up to fight without body armor or properly armored vehicles, and they go home in body bags or so mentally damaged they end up homeless. And the government and military treats them like shit when they get back. This is all a huge scam. Canada will spend what its citizens feel like spending. Nice rant, but do you really think this is all Mike Pences fault, or is it the fact that the Trump government is calling out ALL nations that fell below the 2 % mark, the fact is really we have not been at the 2 % mark since the late 50's....and while alot of nations have called us out on it, we have blushed , said we will work harder next year, and so on and so on, to we get to where we are today, some 50 years later, still riding the cheap wave to the beach...in fact we resigned this NATO defense alliance not so long ago, knowing we where short on our 2 % of GDP goal....but hey we got away with it for 50 years why not a couple more.....well Canada is not the only nation riding this wave or peace dividend, the numbers are swelling fast.....Leaving the US to pony up for these shortfalls, something it is growing tired of, who could blame them.....And this is your message to the US government Go F8ck yourself.....Well you 've already heard the US response....NO you go fuc* yourself, pay up or get out......Kind of hard to sit at the grown up table when you don't pay any of the bills..... While the US military has had some problems, most are fixed today, But lets remember we live in a glass house as well, and for every problem they have.... we have dozens of problems...that have gone unaddressed for years...there are more than 2 dozen programs available to US service personal coming home from conflict, along with dozens of other that are sponsored by civilian companies.....here in Canada there are 1 or two programs available while you serve, and maybe 3 or 4 programs offered by civilain companies, thats right Canadian civilian companies are paying the bulk of the costs for rehab programs for soldiers.....Not only is this sanctioned by our government but also by it's citizens....How many soldiers in Canada has committed suicide after they have come back....the answer changes every day, a year ago it surpassed the numbers killed in combat....Thanks for having our backs....if this was an issue for the people of Canada something would have been done by now.......But because our military is nothing but a dirty word to most Canadians......this will go on until the numbers exceed beyond all our expectations.... Canada will spend what it has agreed to spend 2 %, or it will end up on the side lines pouting because they got their fingers caught in the cookie jar, and freeloading for over 50 years, and what did they do with all that funding they were suppose to spend .....pissed it away......here is a kleenex go wipe your tears..... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 4 hours ago, The_Squid said: I think you're doing that right now... I doubt you ever served in any army. I don't think you're telling the truth. Seems everyone is a millionaire or served in the Rangers on internet forums... Like i said before Squid ....i don't really give a rats ass what you think. I did my time , what did you do again....oh ya milked goats....i guess it takes all kinds to make a village.... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Squid Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 7 minutes ago, Army Guy said: Like i said before Squid ....i don't really give a rats ass what you think. I did my time , what did you do again....oh ya milked goats....i guess it takes all kinds to make a village.... Swords into plowshares... as honourable and important as playing war, IMO... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilber Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, The_Squid said: Swords into plowshares... as honourable and important as playing war, IMO... Until the guy who kept his sword takes away your plow and the land you use it on. IMO It is only honourable if everyone does it and even then, if you are outnumbered 10 to 1 you are screwed even if no one has anything more than their fists. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 (edited) 13 minutes ago, The_Squid said: Swords into plowshares... as honourable and important as playing war, IMO... I don't disagree, but with over 60 conflicts around the world, and our nations incessant nature to get involved..... turning swords into plowshares is a little early.... Edited February 22, 2017 by Army Guy 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 10 minutes ago, Army Guy said: the fact is really we have not been at the 2 % mark since the late 50's freeloading for over 50 years While we peaked at a high of 8% during the Korean war, it dropped over the next decade or more to just under 2% where it sat until the 90's (after end of cold war) and then dropped to about 1.2% where it sat until Harper went on a buying binge for a couple of years and brought it up to 1.4% and then dropped it to just under 1%. What is the proper spending, that is up to Canadians to decide, not Trump. I cannot find the 2006 commitment, we have a bunch of loud recent rhetoric from the US about it being a commitment but everything else seems to talk about target spending. Like the rest of the world, the US dropped spending on the military after the US caused global recession. Where is this actual "commitment", not the paraphrasing we are hearing now? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Army Guy Posted February 22, 2017 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 4 minutes ago, ?Impact said: While we peaked at a high of 8% during the Korean war, it dropped over the next decade or more to just under 2% where it sat until the 90's (after end of cold war) and then dropped to about 1.2% where it sat until Harper went on a buying binge for a couple of years and brought it up to 1.4% and then dropped it to just under 1%. What is the proper spending, that is up to Canadians to decide, not Trump. I cannot find the 2006 commitment, we have a bunch of loud recent rhetoric from the US about it being a commitment but everything else seems to talk about target spending. Like the rest of the world, the US dropped spending on the military after the US caused global recession. Where is this actual "commitment", not the paraphrasing we are hearing now? Not sure what your trying to say here, i did say over 50 years we have been freeloading , 50 years ago would be 1967....and since those dates we have not been over the 2 % GDP numbers. And don't get me wrong i am pointing my fingers at all governing parties at the time Liberal and Conservative.....Harper mistake was he made us all believe things would be different....and he ended like all the same, bending DND over the table when it was convenient... It was up to Canadians to decide on what defensive agreements it want to sign on to.....NATO requirement to be a member was to spend 2 % of GDP on your military....Last time i checked our PM signature was on that agreement, he and all the other signees knew what the terms where....and we brushed those aside, at the cost to other nations....now it is time to pay the piper. Along with NATO there is Norad as well, between the US and Canada, that agreement sees Canada with only 10 % of the bill.... You seem to think this is just a Trump thing, But it is not Obama said the same things in his address to our parliament.....posted in this very same topic....so it is not a trump "fake News thing"....most presidents have urged Canada to get back on track... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
?Impact Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 Just now, Army Guy said: Not sure what your trying to say here, i did say over 50 years we have been freeloading It was up to Canadians to decide on what defensive agreements it want to sign on to.....NATO requirement to be a member was to spend 2 % of GDP on your military. Why have we been freeloading? Based on what criteria? We have been a very significant contributor to NATO for years, and our spending was very close to the 2% target that NATO set in 2006, or 40 years after you are calling us freeloaders. Canada's NATO commitment is our contribution commitment, and we are making that. The 2% target is something that was set in 2006, but that is not about a commitment to being part of NATO. Show me this document you said our PM signed. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eyeball Posted February 22, 2017 Report Share Posted February 22, 2017 On 2/20/2017 at 3:44 PM, Army Guy said: Vice President gives NATO members another warning, Somebody should tell Pence to go piss up a rope. Anyone who goes around the planet deliberately making as many enemies as America does is no ally of anyone - America is the proverbial rogue nation that a real alliance of more civilized nations should have put back in its place decades ago, 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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