Muslims Shot and Killed in Quebec City

[?Impact]

14 hours ago, Peter F said:

But, it seems this was a lone wolf thing. Murder charges will do just fine.

I see this incident as almost exactly the same as the one in Ottawa just over 2 years ago where Corporal Nathan Cirillo was shot, the only difference is the number of victims. In both cases members of an identifiable group were sought out and attacked. The individual doing the shooting had previously attempted to associate with groups but didn't seem to fit into the mainstream. It is also a good contrast in how to deal with radical individuals. Just like people were asking 2 years ago what could have the mosques, family, homeless shelter, etc. do to identify and prevent the act we should be asking the same of the conservative groups and fellow students, etc. today.

[dialamah]

49 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

Just like people were asking 2 years ago what could have the mosques, family, homeless shelter, etc. do to identify and prevent the act we should be asking the same of the conservative groups and fellow students, etc. today.

Good point.  If Muslims are expected to answer for the crazies aming them, why not also the right?  (Or the left, or whatever ideology a killer might claim).

[Altai]

This is why I will never visit a foreign country. I dont want to be attacked by crazy persons who says something in his mind wants him to take a machine gun from the car's trunk and murder people.

[Army Guy]

1 hour ago, ?Impact said:

I see this incident as almost exactly the same as the one in Ottawa just over 2 years ago where Corporal Nathan Cirillo was shot, the only difference is the number of victims. In both cases members of an identifiable group were sought out and attacked. The individual doing the shooting had previously attempted to associate with groups but didn't seem to fit into the mainstream. It is also a good contrast in how to deal with radical individuals. Just like people were asking 2 years ago what could have the mosques, family, homeless shelter, etc. do to identify and prevent the act we should be asking the same of the conservative groups and fellow students, etc. today.

I see the incidents are similar, what i don't see is an ... a equal response by both sides...For instance during this attack, there has been overwhelming response by all Canadians to condemn this attack, Canadians are Pissed off, not just the muslim community but most Canadians....they want justice and they want it bad....we are talking more about this attack as a nation, not all of it is good, but we are talking.....

Cpl Cirillo attack , on the other hand , yes it sparked some discussions, most of them were about muslims, and terrorism, and the muslim community did say a few things....condemning the attacks, etc etc , but there is always a but.....their response was some what muted to a point.....Here we have other Muslims offering to pay for funerals, to rebuild the mosque, and so on....we have other Canadians also offering help both financial and in support of making this right......

and alot of this support response is coming from other Canadians, across Canada....Not that this is a bad thing, maybe we are just growing tired of the terrorism thing....and the next attack i hope the muslim community steps it up as well.....they need to be the leaders in this fight....regardless of whom carries out the attack.....show other Canadians where they stand, to stop this growing tit for tat thing....all terrorism needs to be put down hard....it needs to happen fast....Canadian muslim population needs to send the message to incoming muslims as well ....you rock the boat, we'll throw you out....don't bring all that hate into our new country....They need to earn the trust of other Canadians.... 

Edited February 1, 2017 by Army Guy

[?Impact]

7 minutes ago, Army Guy said:

I see the incidents are similar, what i don't see is an ... a equal response by both sides

You are right, we didn't see the blame the victim happening in 2014 like it is happening today; much of this thread is testimony to that fact.

[Peter F]

1 hour ago, Rue said:

Let me explain why terrorism is an over used word. To start with when you kill anyone it terrorizes others who witness it or hear about it or survivors. Of course at one level it terrorizes. Etc...

Thank you for that thoughtful post. I don't recall having heard the term 'rage killing' in that context before and I find it a very apt description of these loner attacks. I think you are right to differentiate between rage killings and terrorism. 

[Army Guy]

33 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

You are right, we didn't see the blame the victim happening in 2014 like it is happening today; much of this thread is testimony to that fact.

WOW.....nice try though....

[Peter F]

6 hours ago, Army Guy said:

.and the next attack i hope the muslim community steps it up as well.....they need to be the leaders in this fight....regardless of whom carries out the attack.....show other Canadians where they stand,

I disagree. They do not need to be leaders at all nor is there a need to show other Canadians where they stand. You are making a demand of them and a lesser demand of non-muslims.  

[blueblood]

17 minutes ago, Peter F said:

I disagree. They do not need to be leaders at all nor is there a need to show other Canadians where they stand. You are making a demand of them and a lesser demand of non-muslims.  

Yeah they do need to be leaders as perception can be reality.  If they don't then the few bad apples spoil the bunch comes into play and ruins it for all of them.  It's not fair but that tends to be the way things go.  

[Peter F]

Oh I have no problem with Muslims announcing they abhor this or abhor that or for that matter anyone abhorring things. I think there is a perception in this land from some folks that Muslims need to prove something for some reason.  I have great doubt that announcements of disgust with this action or that will effect in any way the behaviour of bad apples.  We have seen in these very forums ourselves that no matter what good acts or words a muslim may carry out, others will only consider such things acts of deceit to cover up their supposed true purpose. To these bad apple's all the good deed of the world mean nothing.

 

[dialamah]

4 minutes ago, blueblood said:

Yeah they do need to be leaders as perception can be reality

I once posted a link to an open letter written to ISIS detailing why they weren't following Islam.  This letter was signed by hundreds of Imams and other leaders of Islam, and the response here was to discredit it.  I've posted you-tube videos of ordinary Muslims standing up and saying that terrorism is wrong, and they're ignored.   I've posted info and links to what most Muslims believe and teach, that terrorism is wrong and un-Islamic, but the right-wingers on this site stick with Islamic hate sites like answering-islam or religion of peace.  Its pretty convenient for you guys to ignore Muslims standing up against terrorism, then complain that they don't.  

It's funny that when a kid goes from normal kind of guy to Muslim killer after being exposed to right-wing, anti-Muslim rhetoric, Conservatives say ... Nothing to do with us!   Maybe right wingers need to show some leadership so kids aren't radicalized.

[blueblood]

19 minutes ago, dialamah said:

I once posted a link to an open letter written to ISIS detailing why they weren't following Islam.  This letter was signed by hundreds of Imams and other leaders of Islam, and the response here was to discredit it.  I've posted you-tube videos of ordinary Muslims standing up and saying that terrorism is wrong, and they're ignored.   I've posted info and links to what most Muslims believe and teach, that terrorism is wrong and un-Islamic, but the right-wingers on this site stick with Islamic hate sites like answering-islam or religion of peace.  Its pretty convenient for you guys to ignore Muslims standing up against terrorism, then complain that they don't.  

It's funny that when a kid goes from normal kind of guy to Muslim killer after being exposed to right-wing, anti-Muslim rhetoric, Conservatives say ... Nothing to do with us!   Maybe right wingers need to show some leadership so kids aren't radicalized.

They do show leadership.  Everyone is in agreement the kid is a nutbar and he very well likely won't set foot outside a jail cell for the rest of his life.

now do you see outside of North America on a regular basis leadership against radical Islam from fellow Muslims?  Do you see Muslim countries pitching in to take refugees?  Do you see the Muslim countries mobilizing their armies to wipe out Isis themselves?

im talking that kind of leadership which the USA does consistently on a regular basis in spite of putting a moratorium on refugees from seven countries given on the instability going on in Europe at the moment.  

 

[Peter F]

59 minutes ago, blueblood said:

now do you see outside of North America on a regular basis leadership against radical Islam from fellow Muslims?  Do you see Muslim countries pitching in to take refugees?  Do you see the Muslim countries mobilizing their armies to wipe out Isis themselves?

 

I think the very fact that no one ever heard of the victims speaks volumes. They weren't criminals, terrorists, rapists, or anything other than peaceful folk carrying on with their lives day to day. I think the mere fact that simple muslims - and there is lots of them - have never come to your attention in any way speaks a fuck-ton about what they think and believe. They don't have nothing to prove to anyone by the simple fact that they arn't in the news. The ones that do make the news do not, in any way that I can imagine, make demands that others prove something to you or army guy or anyone else, justified.

 

[blueblood]

10 minutes ago, Peter F said:

I think the very fact that no one ever heard of the victims speaks volumes. They weren't criminals, terrorists, rapists, or anything other than peaceful folk carrying on with their lives day to day. I think the mere fact that simple muslims - and there is lots of them - have never come to your attention in any way speaks a fuck-ton about what they think and believe. They don't have nothing to prove to anyone by the simple fact that they arn't in the news. The ones that do make the news do not, in any way that I can imagine, make demands that others prove something to you or army guy or anyone else, justified.

 

Just like the vast majority of Christians, Jews, et. Al.  Unfortunately for the past 2500 years the Middle East and the west haven't gotten along too well and if those that come from the Middle East want to come and play in the sandbox that is the west there is unfortunately a price to pay thrust upon by society which may or may not be fair.

[Peter F]

I certainly acknowllege that people can make unfair demands. But that does not mean you and I should encourage unfairness.

[blueblood]

12 minutes ago, Peter F said:

I certainly acknowllege that people can make unfair demands. But that does not mean you and I should encourage unfairness.

The thing with unfairness is that it's subjective. 

What is interesting is looking through history over the past 2500 years, it's all just basically elites making power grabs at the expense of innocent people, which is basically what is going on here.  Isis wants to be the next Ottoman Empire and I'm sure those fellows in the mosque just wanted to live their lives.

[Peter F]

I agree with you there. 

 

[Rue]

18 hours ago, Altai said:

This is why I will never visit a foreign country. I dont want to be attacked by crazy persons who says something in his mind wants him to take a machine gun from the car's trunk and murder people.

So you want to hide from the entire world?

I witnessed terrorism first hand. It makes an obscenity of life  but you can not hide from it. Its what terrorists want.

When people engage in horrible behaviour you must look the devil of it straight in the eyes and not be afraid. Fear is what enables it to rear its ugly head again.

You have to look it back in the eye and stand and not let it change your life, your values, your belief in the good in people.

Some will see the attack and see only bad.

I choose to see the good. I choose to see people who embrace Muslims after what has happened not fear them.

This asshole who killed innocent Muslims praying is no different than assholes who are Muslim killing innocent people.

They do not reflect on we the people. only their own madness.

\

[Rue]

9 hours ago, Peter F said:

I certainly acknowllege that people can make unfair demands. But that does not mean you and I should encourage unfairness.

That is the point. We don't have to encourage, welcome or support those coming to Canada who want to retain bigoted values or values that challenge fundamental democratic values we hold dear. On the other hand it doesn't mean we then react by deliberately taking an entire group of people. assign them all the same negative traits and write them all off. Its wrong. We can't turn in to the very thing we object to. It makes no logical sense.

[Argus]

19 hours ago, ?Impact said:

You are right, we didn't see the blame the victim happening in 2014 like it is happening today; much of this thread is testimony to that fact.

Who is blaming the victims?

[Guest]

On 2017-02-01 at 3:21 PM, dialamah said:

Good point.  If Muslims are expected to answer for the crazies aming them, why not also the right?  (Or the left, or whatever ideology a killer might claim).

They are not.  Neither should anyone be held respnsible for things they did not do.

[Rue]

On ‎2017‎-‎02‎-‎01 at 4:30 PM, ?Impact said:

I see this incident as almost exactly the same as the one in Ottawa just over 2 years ago where Corporal Nathan Cirillo was shot, the only difference is the number of victims. In both cases members of an identifiable group were sought out and attacked. The individual doing the shooting had previously attempted to associate with groups but didn't seem to fit into the mainstream. It is also a good contrast in how to deal with radical individuals. Just like people were asking 2 years ago what could have the mosques, family, homeless shelter, etc. do to identify and prevent the act we should be asking the same of the conservative groups and fellow students, etc. today.

Its not. One was an attack against symbols of the Canadian state, the other against civilians not considered by the attacker as part of the state.

So there's a huge psychological difference. One attacks something ambiguous in dimension (state) through symbols for that state,  the other a very specific group of people not considered by the shooter to be proper state participants.

The shootings in Quebec City share the traits of the gunman who killed black people in church praying. Its a religious hate crime based on hate of a targeted group of people while praying.Its an attack on the very religious identity of these persons not just their perceived culture. The idiot who ran crazy on Parliament hill was attacking far mor than just Christians for being Christian.

Now if you look at the pattern of such shootings, the majority are happening in Quebec.. Lone gun men attacking civilians seems to be concentrating its pattern in Quebec as opposed to the rest of Canada with some exceptions. Quebec has seen a mad man burst into a court and shoot at people, an attacking at the L'Etude de Commerce, Dawson College CEGEP and now this. Why? There seems to be something in Quebec that may be contributing to added social stressors that trigger such people.

Quebec's mistrust of immigrants now appears not to be based not just on language but based on ethnic-cultural-religious biases as well.

One psycho-analytic explanation as to why it happens in Quebec more often is that the people who are attacked represent the part of the attacker, the attacker loaths. The attacker looks at Muslims and the traits he sees in them are the minority  traits of himself he detests.

So this attacker may see in Muslims a reflection of the part of himself he hates, a powerless minority subordinated to a greater society. A  member of a people (Quebecois) forced to learn someone else's language and be subservient to a society other than his own just as this Muslims were doing by being peaceful ordinary people symbolized by their ultimate act of humiliation to a greater whole., praying..

So it may very well be in the twisted mind of the attacker he sees Muslims in one sense as a reminder he is always as a Quebecer going to face being assimilated by a greater Anglo society. He may see such Muslims as the very minority he is and does not want to be and so its not unusual to hear as a child the attacker was a loner and felt alienated from the other children and dressed differently. Those are all traits a visible minority Muslim would share in Quebec quite possibly.

Certainly in the case of the gay man who attacked the gay bar, he was a repressed homosexual, a self loathing homosexual. All the shooters in Quebec were alienated from mainstream society and felt powerless against it.

In the case of the young white man who attacked blacks, he saw in these blacks he attacked a warmth, a friendliness he could not understand. He resented their kindness. He felt himself a powerless minority for other reasons and could not understand how this highly visible minority of blacks he saw as powerless in a greater white society  could be happy when he as a minority felt angry. He resented their ability to be happy, i.e., contented as symbolized by their act of humility (praying) to a greater whole, God (seen as the ultimate symbol of an untouchable never accepting element of control that could ever be understood and pleased)..

The stressors that are behind the ultimate trigger for the attacks  in these cases re perceived qualities or traits  in the targets that the attacker has not come to grips with in his own psyche.

Now since we are so focused on the psyche of people who are unstable and whether to define their actions as political and terrorist in nature why not examine Trump for a second. He does lash out at everyone at this point and that seems to be escalating each day. Insteado f actually toning down, he is getting more and more brazen in his attacks today insulting the Prime Minister of Australia. 

Now Trump as a child was taught that to be weak means one will be ridiculed just as he was as a child. He also grew up in an environment where being served by a class of people NOT ALLOWED to argue with him and say no was a given. So now he emulates and has inherited the role of  his abusive father and re-enacts his role lashing out and abusing and attacking others and he sees the external world as he would the servants he grew up with people who should simply follow his orders.. He sees anyone who disagrees with him as he once was, weak and worthy of contempt as he was.

Unstable personalities lime Trump engage in what is called maladaption. The they adapt negative patterns of behaviour to cope not positive ones.

Maladaptive behaviour is very hard to correct in adults if not impossible particularly if it deals with sadistic compulsions and violence.

The profile on mas killers is they are always one step from exploding and a trigger finally causes them to go off.

In the case of Trump everything is a  trigger and there is a constant siege and rage. He will however  escalate as did  Hitler or Mussolini or Stalin did. For now as President he's got many layers of people serving him to burn through and alienate. The entire world either serves him or is an idiot, a loser.

Profiles such as Trump's can flourish in the corporate world but not running a country where power is often an illusion and never exists and so one can't order something to be done, they have to convince someone its worth being done which invariably means giving them something, and Trump clearly does not give. In his world treaties are flawed precisely because they are two way. In his world, he should only be given not give as well.

Trump's son-in-law and daughter were supposed to be his pacifiers. They have failed. He turned on his daughter on the weekend and apparently deliberately ignored his son in law who told him not to fight with Mexico and meet their President. Trump in fact told his son in law to phack off, and deliberately got on the phone with the Mexican President, baited him, belittled him, and then turned around and did the same with the Prime Minister of Australia showing he can't tell the difference between friend and foe nor will he listen to reason

I doubt his son in law will last a year. Would Trump start a war or simply go crazy and attack an entire country. I now think it possible.I believe Trump is mentally ill in the clinical sense and could trigger a war in the Pacific with China or with Iran.

The question is, will the powers behind the powers allow him to continue. Is it so unbelievable now to think he will have a heart attack in office and die of natural causes or die in an accident. When people in certain positions repeatedly remain out of control arranging a car accident is always there. Ask Princess Diana. Some mad men I am afraid to say you can't talk down. They have to be taken out forcefully aby a bullet between the eyes so to speak.

In Trump's case he is his own worst enemy and his own inner circle will soon have to ask, how much can they go on with a guy out of control?

He's surrounded by Generals, an Exxon oil chief, they are not about to play second fiddle to insanity.

Some days Pence looks like the President in waiting and knows it.

 

 

Edited February 3, 2017 by Rue

[Cum Laude]

2 hours ago, bcsapper said:

They are not.  Neither should anyone be held respnsible for things they did not do.

If we’re being fact based and honest, here’s a threat. The vast majority of “shooters” are on anti-depressants, SSRI’s. I’m certainly no genius, but I have to believe that is a contributing factor. How about we stop allowing wholesale distribution of anti-depressants. What say you Big Pharma? What say you AMA? Nary a word is mentioned about this link in the MSM, as millions and millions of dollars of advertising revenue would simply evaporate. The MSM must obey their corporate masters at all costs, even the costs of our lives.

[Rue]

14 hours ago, Cum Laude said:

If we’re being fact based and honest, here’s a threat. The vast majority of “shooters” are on anti-depressants, SSRI’s. I’m certainly no genius, but I have to believe that is a contributing factor. How about we stop allowing wholesale distribution of anti-depressants. What say you Big Pharma? What say you AMA? Nary a word is mentioned about this link in the MSM, as millions and millions of dollars of advertising revenue would simply evaporate. The MSM must obey their corporate masters at all costs, even the costs of our lives.

Uh no. There is no link between anti depressants and rage killers or political terrorism although I would welcome your proof.

Anti depressants in particular SRI's simply have the brain not release its supply of Seratonin. Saratonin does not cause rage. On the contrary it is a natutal occurring drug that regulates mood.

It is possible for someone who abruptly withdraws from any drug including anti-depressants to become irritable and anxious, suicidal, maybe angry to the point of rage but its not the drug that does it, its other things.

It is also conceivable that if you were to deliberately take too much SSRI's you could trigger anxiety, swets, shakes, irritability but rage to the point of bing focused to kill probably not. Its unusual people take too much SRI's because they have no pleasing effect to cause the compulsion to want to do that.

Your suggestion anti-depressants are behind this is akin to saying insulin given to diabetics or high blood pressure medication given to p eople with hypertension cause them rage. Its just patently false.

Now if you want to stop what you call the wholesale distribution of anti depressants what would you suggest people with genuine clinical depression do?

The ignorance behind what anti-depressants do and how they impact or effect brain function is what I would say me wholesale not the actual distribution of such drugs.

An SSRI is to a person with this illness what high blood pressure is for people with hypertension or insulin is for a diabetic. No more, no less. It addresses a chronic condition.

Depressive illness has always been around. In the past in non industrial societies people were doing physical labour and so that would naturally fatigue them and give them a way to have their bodies create natural endomorphins another mood regulant as their bodies worked and required certain ch emails to be produced to increase energy levels and muscle coordination. Also being outside, people were more likely to get access to natural sun light another source of Vitamin D and also a mood regulant.

Rage killers when profiled don't show any specific genetic disposition. Their behaviour comes mostly from personality defects which arise as a result of maladapting to their environments and stressors in the environment. It is true certain criminals may have an extra X chromosone, and certain defects of the brain can cause certain kinds of socio/psychopathic behaviour but mostly its negative learned behaviour to stimulus the attacker felt he/she had no control over.

.I think when they get into the thought patterns of Bissonette they will find signs of mental illness at a very early age and we just don't have enough neuro-science to tell us if that is genetically inherent or learned. It could be both but is very often not just one or the other alone. I would be very surprised if he had been on any medication at the time of attacks. Most rage killers actually don't get drunk or stoned first believe it or not. They focus on what they are doing. There's a surge of adrenalin pumping in their blood that zones out any noise or distraction as they attack and shoot. Its like they have tunnel vision and go deaf and everything goes into slow motion for them as they attack.

 

[mowich]

On 2017-01-30 at 3:57 PM, Argus said:

There was a column in the paper earlier, I think by Ibbitson, talking about that by 2036 the number of foreign born people in Canada will outnumber 'old stock' Canadians, and how this is not a social engineering experiment anyone ever proposed or ever offered up for debate. He said people who were here already aren't happy about the way their country was irretrievably changed. And he's right. Trump and I suppose Le Pen, are saying, "Hey, look at how our country is being changed. Do we want it to change this way? If not, then we need to get hold of immigration!" I fail to see how that is an illegitimate position to take or how they shouldn't be allowed to take it.

If Pierre Trudeau or Brian Mulroney had smilingly told Canadians that once their immigration programs got into full bore their cities would have more foreigners in it than Canadians they'd have been out of office by the end of day, thrown out by their own parties. Almost no one would have supported them in such a goal. But nobody was ever told what was happening, and even today, it's virtually impossible to discuss immigration. Anyone who questions it publicly is vilified by the political elites and media. If this was done in most countries there'd have been a blood bath of monumental proportions. The fact this is pretty much the first and only serious violence on the issue is a tribute to how peaceful and calm Canadians are.

I'm one of those 'Old Stock Canadians' which just means I am a descendant of earlier immigrants. Without immigration, this country would be a poorer much less diverse society.  Those immigrants who came to Canada during the Mulroney years are now naturalized Canadians.  Those coming now will be in 3 years time when they take the Oath of Citizenship but before they got here they were subjected to a vetting process that is the envy of many Americans and one of the reasons behind the temporary ban imposed by President Trump.

We have free speech in Canada which gives anyone the right to talk about immigration - indeed I would encourage them too do so - an open and honest dialogue is often the best way to understanding and enlightenment no matter which side of the issue you support.

The fact is that us OSCs aren't breeding in the numbers we once were for a number of reasons - thus our numbers are shrinking while those of other ethnicities are on the rise.  I see nothing harmful nor alarming about this fact at all.  The truth is that no matter the color of our skin, the choice of our religion or the politics we support - we are ALL Canadians.  

Edited February 3, 2017 by mowich
correct placement of certain sentences