Native Ceremony takes place at a public school

[msj]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

 

Actually your scenario is not the same at all. First from a physical standpoint, burning sage is vastly different than dunking someone in water. If you compared it to using holy water to make the sign of the cross for example then it would similar in a physical standpoint. From a symbolic standpoint it is also vastly different. Baptism is about the individual, not about ridding of evil spirits. It is about purification and regeneration of the individual and about admitting them into the Christian church. 

A better equivalent would be the use of incense during a service to symbolize the prayers being lifted up towards God.

Cleansing with water vs cleansing with smoke/fire. 

My gawd, I'm an accountant and even I can appreciate the metaphor in that.  

I mean, really, holy shit, literally. 

[DogOnPorch]

Again, the day the Government forces the Muslim community to let their children be influenced by other cults/religions, then perhaps I'd take this whole exercise in western guilt seriously.

 

[msj]

The reason secularists fight about things like this is to keep all religious indoctrination out of secular schools. 

[DogOnPorch]

10 minutes ago, msj said:

The reason secularists fight about things like this is to keep all religious indoctrination out of secular schools. 

 

Let us fight it together!

Edited November 18, 2016 by DogOnPorch

[msj]

For those interested in supporting this fight, you can donate here: https://www.jccf.ca/donate-to-jccf/

[?Impact]

45 minutes ago, msj said:

That is a repeat offence after already being warned by the parent that the initial incident was unacceptable. 

Yes, helicopter parent Candice certainly has a bee up her bonnet. Maybe a job or a hobby would help her deal with life.

[msj]

1 minute ago, ?Impact said:

Yes, helicopter parent Candice certainly has a bee up her bonnet. Maybe a job or a hobby would help her deal with life.

 

Nice ad hominem about the parent.... none of which is relevant to the case, I notice.  

Maybe when you have something of substance to add then we can discuss further. 

[?Impact]

45 minutes ago, msj said:

Cleansing with water vs cleansing with smoke/fire. 

My gawd, I'm an accountant and even I can appreciate the metaphor in that.  

I mean, really, holy shit, literally. 

Obviously you need to go back and read what was written, and not repeat your interpretation that is wrong. The child is not being cleansed with the sage, and the child is not joining a religion either. A baptism however is about the child being cleansed and admitted to the Christian church. 

[?Impact]

Just now, msj said:

Nice ad hominem about the parent.... none of which is relevant to the case, I notice.  

A parent warning the school is what you suggested, since when is the parent judge, jury, and executioner? I would like to see copies of letters from this parent complaining about Halloween, Christmas, Valentines, Thanksgiving, and other Christian derived school activities. This lady has too much time on her hands, and seems fixated on taking them out on native customs. Did she get ripped off when visiting the trading post, that dream catcher she bought fell apart?

[msj]

Ok, that's better. 

Again, read what the SD stated in its own letter to the parents: ...cleanse our own spirits to allow GREAT new experiences ... and so on. 

That's not much different than sprinkling water on ones head or immersing a person in water as a symbol of purifying or regenerating a person into the "great" (I'm sure  ) Christian Church (insert denomination here ________). 

[eyeball]

11 minutes ago, msj said:

For those interested in supporting this fight, you can donate here: https://www.jccf.ca/donate-to-jccf/

The real problem here is in the preamble to our constitution. Until that's as secularized as the public institutions that fall under it's domain this fight will forever remain a sacred cow to be milked by political and legal entrepreneurs alike.

[msj]

5 minutes ago, ?Impact said:

A parent warning the school is what you suggested, since when is the parent judge, jury, and executioner? I would like to see copies of letters from this parent complaining about Halloween, Christmas, Valentines, Thanksgiving, and other Christian derived school activities. This lady has too much time on her hands, and seems fixated on taking them out on native customs. Did she get ripped off when visiting the trading post, that dream catcher she bought fell apart?

Again, it is clear from the letters that had the second incident not happened this matter would have been dropped. 

The parent seems to understand de minimus non curat lex (the law does not concern itself with trifles) but having 2 incidents within months of each other is a line being crossed. 

Stating a prayer at an assembly and having children participating in a religious ceremony is beyond trivial especially since we know priests would not be allowed in to perform sacraments nor to speak prayers (and as it should be -- keep them all out). 

 

[msj]

4 minutes ago, eyeball said:

The real problem here is in the preamble to our constitution. Until that's as secularized as the public institutions that fall under it's domain this fight will forever remain a sacred cow to be milked by political and legal entrepreneurs alike.

Agreed, although it is section 2(a) that is problematic.  

In my post under the gender topic I go into the problems with respecting religious freedom when considering orthodox Jews and women on airplanes. 

There is no doubt a real conflict and the Charter provides too much respect to religions which we must respect to some degree if we are to respect our own laws. 

[?Impact]

20 minutes ago, msj said:

having 2 incidents within months of each other is a line being crossed. 

Up until 1996, daily reciting the Lords prayer and a reading from Christian scriptures was compulsory in British Columbia schools unless the school received a written letter from the parent/guardian then the teacher could excuse that student and assign him/her other work. It was then that section 76 (1) & (2) of the School Act were added.

i wonder what Candice has to say if he child sneezes and the teacher says "Bless you".

[msj]

Nice story, bro. 

Hmmm, I was in K to 12 during the late '70's through to early '90's and do not recall ever reciting any prayer at any time in my K to 7 elementary school and then 8 - 12 high school. 

My sister also did not have to recite any and she went to two different schools than me. 

We must have lucked out to go to 4 different public schools when you say it was compulsory to recite a prayer and yet we never had to recite a prayer.

Which is to say that yes, our school system has definitley evolved and has been forced to change over the past few decades.

But that is the point: to keep all religious participation out. 

Your justification in trying to pooh pooh the first nation religious participation looks the same to me as your unfounded allegation that Candice would pooh pooh Christian religious participation back then. 

Even if true, it would still be wrong. 

So, again, nice story, bro.  

Edited November 18, 2016 by msj

[Altai]

Its Canadian native's lands and they can do whatever they want. 

[BC_chick]

55 minutes ago, msj said:

Nice story, bro. 

Hmmm, I was in K to 12 during the late '70's through to early '90's and do not recall ever reciting any prayer at any time in my K to 7 elementary school and then 8 - 12 high school. 

My sister also did not have to recite any and she went to two different schools than me. 

We must have lucked out to go to 4 different public schools when you say it was compulsory to recite a prayer and yet we never had to recite a prayer.

Which is to say that yes, our school system has definitley evolved and has been forced to change over the past few decades.

But that is the point: to keep all religious participation out. 

Your justification in trying to pooh pooh the first nation religious participation looks the same to me as your unfounded allegation that Candice would pooh pooh Christian religious participation back then. 

Even if true, it would still be wrong. 

So, again, nice story, bro.  

What do you think of my kids's Christmas concert next month at her school?

Exclusively referred to as a Christmas concert in every correspondence. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by BC_chick

[msj]

If it was my kid I would write a letter. 

Change only happens when people step up. 

[msj]

17 minutes ago, Altai said:

Its Canadian native's lands and they can do whatever they want. 

Sure, and for those of us who are born in Canada, about 82% of us, I think, we not only do what we want, we also write it into law so we continue to get it. 

If only those FN's could have been so clever.  

At least they seem to be learning though.

So quickly that they are trying to push their religious beliefs in our secular schools and getting around our laws by convincing foolish people that talk of cleansing spirits is cultural rather than religious.  

Edited November 18, 2016 by msj

[BC_chick]

19 minutes ago, msj said:

If it was my kid I would write a letter. 

Change only happens when people step up. 

It doesn't say anything to you about the hypocrisy of the parents suing the school now that I've demonstrated that BC school systems still do celebrate Christian festivities?

Personally I hope Christmas concerts stay and I hope my kid gets to participate a FN cleansing activity. I hope she learns about Passover and Eid  

It's a bummer some people are so uptight they're blurring the lines between learning about cultural celebrations and religious indoctrination. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by BC_chick

[msj]

I do not know if John Howitt elementary has a Xmas concert or a holiday concert so no idea. 

I'm fine with holiday concerts and ok with trees which I find to be more of a pagan thing ripped off by Christians, anyway. 

So long as there are no nativity scenes I doubt it is much of a big deal: de minimus in legal jargon which I have already mentioned quite a few posts ago. 

Even if Candice is being hypocritical it does not mean that she is incorrect to challenge the foisting of FN religious practices on her kids. 

It is up to other parents to seek legal remedies if they think other religious practices are being foisted on their kids and to the extent that these specific cases come forward with specific facts that I can actually read about and understand then I am sure I will support such actions.  

I am a consistent secularist and I don't know about Candice.

Since she is not here to argue the point I don't see much value in such speculations that you and ?Impact feel compelled to provide on her behalf.  

I can only comment on the facts at hand which were provided in the OP and which took much prompting for you guys to finally get around to read before you started to head off into this line of speculation so you can change the goal posts. 

 

Edited November 18, 2016 by msj

[msj]

13 minutes ago, BC_chick said:

 

It's a bummer some people are so uptight they're blurring the lines between learning about cultural celebrations and religious indoctrination. 

It's very easy to learn about many religious practices now days. 

Google and youtube are both effective tools for this.

One does not need to feel forced to participate in a religious rite by their teacher to learn about it.  

If you had actually read the legal correspondence then you would know that this is the larger issue. 

[Altai]

1 hour ago, msj said:

Sure, and for those of us who are born in Canada, about 82% of us, I think, we not only do what we want, we also write it into law so we continue to get it. 

If only those FN's could have been so clever.  

At least they seem to be learning though.

So quickly that they are trying to push their religious beliefs in our secular schools and getting around our laws by convincing foolish people that talk of cleansing spirits is cultural rather than religious.  

But you dont live there as a right given to you. You invaded it. So it looks like to complain about a line violation in traffic while you dont even have a driver license.

[BC_chick]

1 hour ago, msj said:

I do not know if John Howitt elementary has a Xmas concert or a holiday concert so no idea. 

I'm fine with holiday concerts and ok with trees which I find to be more of a pagan thing ripped off by Christians, anyway. 

So long as there are no nativity scenes I doubt it is much of a big deal: de minimus in legal jargon which I have already mentioned quite a few posts ago. 

Even if Candice is being hypocritical it does not mean that she is incorrect to challenge the foisting of FN religious practices on her kids. 

It is up to other parents to seek legal remedies if they think other religious practices are being foisted on their kids and to the extent that these specific cases come forward with specific facts that I can actually read about and understand then I am sure I will support such actions.  

I am a consistent secularist and I don't know about Candice.

Since she is not here to argue the point I don't see much value in such speculations that you and ?Impact feel compelled to provide on her behalf.  

I can only comment on the facts at hand which were provided in the OP and which took much prompting for you guys to finally get around to read before you started to head off into this line of speculation so you can change the goal posts. 

 

Yeah and I bet you get all fired up over Christmas and Good Friday being stat holidays. 

Edited November 18, 2016 by BC_chick

[Boges]

9 hours ago, ?Impact said:

 

Actually your scenario is not the same at all. First from a physical standpoint, burning sage is vastly different than dunking someone in water. If you compared it to using holy water to make the sign of the cross for example then it would similar in a physical standpoint. From a symbolic standpoint it is also vastly different. Baptism is about the individual, not about ridding of evil spirits. It is about purification and regeneration of the individual and about admitting them into the Christian church. 

A better equivalent would be the use of incense during a service to symbolize the prayers being lifted up towards God.

So you're literally parsing the benefit of the religious ritual to try to justify a public school making students participate in it?