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Trump and Canada


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Just now, Argus said:

No, the difference is the numbers are in balance. So how exactly would eliminating that do anyone any good?

 

Balance...schmalance.   The U.S. does not owe Canada "balance", when Canada won't capitalize or permit domestic development in several sectors.   Canada should have diversified far more...decades ago..to other markets.   CETA is too little, too late.   

The United States is not nearly dependent on export trade to Canada.   Find some "balance" there.

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4 hours ago, Argus said:

Uhm, you do realize that the vast majority of what those branch plants in Canada produce is sold in Canada, right? That's why they're HERE. If Trump orders them to bring the jobs home they will lose their markets since Canada will slap huge tariffs on anything they produce and try to ship here. The auto industry agreement, which was a percusor to NAFTA, had in mind sharing the jobs based in large part on consumption. If Ford, GM and Chrysler close their Canadian plants the Cdn government will impose huge taxes on imports from the US and leave the market to Honda, Hyundai, Toyota and Volkswagen, who will simply take over those empty plants and re-hire the workers.

Other US owned operations include energy and mining industries, and service industries. What are you going to do, order them to do the work from the US? I'm sure Starbucks would get a lot of customers giving them a slip and telling them to head to the nearest US border town for their coffee, and Wal-Mart would have buses to take them across the border. Of course, they'd face a 500% tariff on return....

On the other hand, it's this kind of ignorant, knee-jerk sort of proposal that people are afraid a bonehead like Trump might make.

 

Well, no.  Much of the product made in Ontario is made by US subsidiaries and exported to the US, and forms a critical part of our export revenue stream.

That is about to get smoked, again.

Our manufacturing position, when faced for the first time with a hostile and singular customer, is in deep doodoo now.

 

Forget the energy industry.  The US does not want or need natural gas or oil from us, they have plenty of domestic production.  That is why they pay a discounted price right now for Western Canadian oil.  President Obama did a bangup job of preparing the USA to extract and export oil and gas, while elaving us in the dust.  As a reward for sitting back and not making a fuss or offering any kind of competition globally, he provided dinner for Mr Trudeau and his entire family, all at no cost.

 

Why do you think that Trump is going to make any proposals to Canada?  I don't think you or others appreciate our postion in a negotiation where we need them a whole lot more than they need us.  The benevolent Uncle Sam is gone, he has morphed into Donald Trump, who is most definitely not interested in our welfare.  He can and will unilaterally affect that welfare without any qualms.  And like Putin and his strongarm stuff, his constituency will love him for it.  That's exactly what they voted for in his heartland.

Edited by overthere
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16 minutes ago, overthere said:

...Why do you think that Trump is going to make any proposals to Canada?  I don't think you or others appreciate our postion in a negotiation where we need them a whole lot more than they need us.  The benevolent Uncle Sam is gone, he has morphed into Donald Trump, who is most definitely not interested in our welfare.  He can and will unilaterally affect that welfare without any qualms.  And like Putin and his strongarm stuff, his constituency will love him for it.  That's exactly what they voted for in his heartland.

 

Well stated....this is not your grandfather's United States.  Canada has very little "leverage".  Donald Trump understands "leverage" very well.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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28 minutes ago, overthere said:

Well, no.  Much of the product made in Ontario is made by US subsidiaries and exported to the US, and forms a critical part of our export revenue stream.

That is about to get smoked, again.

Our manufacturing position, when faced for the first time with a hostile and singular customer, is in deep doodoo now.

Yeah, that's crap. Like I said, our trade relationship with the US is more or less equal. If he cuts off imports from Canada we cut off imports from the US. For every job he gains he loses at least one and probably more than one. There's no profit in it.

 

28 minutes ago, overthere said:

Forget the energy industry.  The US does not want or need natural gas or oil from us, they have plenty of domestic production.  

That too is crap. The US uses about 5 million barrels a day more than it produces, or did, as of last year. This year production is down, but the excess oil in the system is likely to be used up within another year.

 

28 minutes ago, overthere said:

That is why they pay a discounted price right now for Western Canadian oil.

No, the discounted prices if in the midwest US because all the oil is gridlocked in that area. That is one of the things the keystone pipeline was designed to get around, by pumping oil to other refineries in the south.

 

 

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Here we go again...Canada has already started whining about what a Trump presidency will mean.   Why, it's an opportunity for Canadians to define themselves in terms of the Americans (again).   Gag me with a spoon....

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/wherry-trudeau-trump-1.3843594

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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1 hour ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Because California and Texas are a larger auto market than all of Canada. Many tech firms that contribute to automotive engineering can be found in California.

So what does that have to do with paying more for poorer quality more expensive car parts coming from the Midwest (cause that is what you get when you protect industries from competition)? And the tech firms in California sell to Canadian plants as well so they have no special interest in plants in the Midwest.

You seem to have the idea that the US is one big happy family. It isn't. The self interest of states like California and Texas is not the same as the self interest of Midwest states. Perhaps the self interest of California won't help Ontario much but it is wrong to assume that everyone would be happy to make sacrifices to protect jobs in other states. Nationalism counts for something but not everything. Canada is the top export market for 37 states. You can argue as much as you want about how the US should only care about the US but when specific congressmen are facing job loses in their district it is harder justify. Especially when nationalism in the way you see it is just an excuse for being an a**hole.

Edited by TimG
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14 minutes ago, TimG said:

So what does that have to do with paying more for poorer quality more expensive car parts coming from the Midwest (cause that is what you get when you protect industries from competition)? And the tech firms in California sell to Canadian plants as well so they have no special interest in plants in the Midwest.

 

Cheerleading for higher cost Canadian production is admirable, but the U.S. does not owe Ontario/Canada a continuation of the status quo.  Magna actually invested in lower cost locations outside of Canada because of higher labour costs, higher energy costs, lower productivity, etc.

 

Quote

You seem to have the idea that the US is one big happy family. It isn't. The self interest of states like California and Texas is not the same as the self interest of Midwest states. Perhaps the self interest of California won't help Ontario much but it is wrong to assume that everyone would be happy to make sacrifices to protect jobs in other states. Nationalism counts for something but not everything. Canada is the top export market for 37 states. You can argue as much as you want about how the US should only care about the US but when specific congressmen are facing job loses in their district it is harder justify. Especially when nationalism in the way you see it is just an excuse for being an a**hole.

 

Nobody is suggesting that all cross border trade should be stopped.   But it is a political reality that the U.S. will protect American interests first.   Obama did this very thing with a Buy America program.   Canada has been so comfortable for so long enjoying easy access to the world's largest market using foreign investment, any other approach or competition is seen as abrupt and unjustified.  Nationalism sure seems to count when Canadians whine about TFWs.

I am an ardent nationalist a**hole.   I am not responsible for babysitting Canada or nurturing its undercapitalized, often foreign owned business sectors.  What the hell does Canada do with all the money ?   Free health care ?  Where are the east-west pipelines ?  Where are the refineries?   Where are the domestic car/truck/train makes ?   Bombardier still limps along with huge government subsidies.

I worked as an engineer at a Tier 3 automotive supplier of flex circuits and laminated materials back when NAFTA first came online.  It was a major pain-in-the-ass.   Materials source content had to be carefully documented.  Shipping transactions became far more complicated.   Canada wanted a bigger piece of the action when the Canadian peso was low.

 

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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36 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

I am an ardent nationalist a**hole.   I am not responsible for babysitting Canada or nurturing its undercapitalized, often foreign owned business sectors.

No one is asking you to. All that is is expected is that Americans and Canadians should be free to purchases the goods that they want to purchase from each other without interference from governments.

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7 minutes ago, TimG said:

No one is asking you to. All that is is expected is that Americans and Canadians should be free to purchases the goods that they want to purchase from each other without interference from governments.

 

Sure...all my American neighbours pile into the car to cross border shop in Canada because there is much better quantity, selection, and lower prices/taxes.   /sarcasm

Canada should be able to integrate with world markets without so much going through the United States. 

Canada still has barriers and tariffs and silly ass language rules.

Remember, EMD London was never a Canadian company.

Edited by bush_cheney2004
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   But it is a political reality that the U.S. will protect American interests first.   Obama did this very thing with a Buy America program.  

Yep to both.

That is exactly what Trump ran on, protectionism of American jobs and Canada is going to be right there at the top of easy targets.  And I have no doubt he will act on what he promised to do, and that is a bad thing for Canada.  Today, post election,  the value of the $US dropped relative to the Euro, pound and yuan,  It gained value against two others: the $CDN and the peso......  Not a coincidence.

 

Obama did a superb job of preparing his country to ramp up oil and gas exports over the last few years, and much of the shale production has proven to be lower cost than the Saudis had hoped- and it is by nature very scalable. He built a lot of pipelines domestically too.  In the meantime, our energy sector is embarking on another few years of 'consultation'.

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3 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 Mexico is more important to Trump than Canada.  

Agree......President of USA Trump and President of The Trump Organization Trump will need a lot of cheap illegal  Mexican immigrant construction workers to build the wall along US-Mexico boarder to prevent them coming into US....:lol:

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22 hours ago, Argus said:

I don't think Trump thinks one way or the other about Canada, but I find it very hard to believe he's going to think much of Justin Trudeau,

Trudeau made the terrible undiplomatic mistake of having a public bromance with Obama!  You don't do that.....not publicly, anyway.

 

At the heels of that very public bromance, he also made a boo-boo of plinking Trump in the early days of the election campaign.  Of course, those have been noted.

 

We'll see how Trudeau will be treated by the new US government. 

At least, the pipeline will be back on the table...... that's no thanks to Trudeau, though.   That'll be Harper's legacy.

Edited by betsy
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1 hour ago, betsy said:

Just saw the news and they say Trudeau had spoken with Trump.  The talk was described as, "cordial."   Trudeau had invited Trump to visit Canada - a good move.  Trudeau is slated to give a press conference sometime this morning.

Right now, actually.

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16 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

"That's crap"...Canada (like Mexico) get access to a market that has ten times the population, all while using American and other foreign capital.  

So what? The point remains that trade between the US and Canada is largely even, though skewed more towards us exporting raw materials and importing finished goods. So if you end it you bring home X jobs and you lose X+Y jobs.

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16 hours ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

 

Sure...all my American neighbours pile into the car to cross border shop in Canada because there is much better quantity, selection, and lower prices/taxes.   /sarcasm

Canada should be able to integrate with world markets without so much going through the United States. 

Canada still has barriers and tariffs and silly ass language rules.

Remember, EMD London was never a Canadian company.

The US gas as many if not more  trade barriers and tarrifs then Canada. Do your homework. Start with lumber then produce and meat. 

Edited by Rue
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Bottom line is Trump has said a lot of moronic simplistic things, fractured syntax, idiot disjointed sound bites for the consumption of his masses brought up on World Wrestlng Federations scripts and are impressed when someone flies a plane with their name on it.

He knows nothing about free trade. He has no clue that Canada lost more jobs than the US did in our free trade with them. He has no clue how the US violated continuously at the state level NAFTA and engaging in both predatory pricing and protectionist tarrifs.

Its time Canada grew some balls, and told the US in many markets to kiss our ass and trade instead with Europe, Australia, New Zealand, South America.

Canada has two major issues our total dependence on not just the US but China and this collective psychosis that we have to please the Americans.

If Trump wants to be an asshole and build walls so what. The US has had protectionist politicians before. In WW1 and 2, industrialists tried to keep it out of world affairs and a world to itself.

Trump is full of crap. The globalization of al economic movement and trade makes it impossible to be isolationist when it comes to business and he knows it more than anyone. His entire empire is built up on finding cheap labour in third world countries to do his work and then hyper over inflate the price for the finished product by slapping his name on the product. He's a hype agent. A one trick pony who slaps labels on other people' work, charges then charges them for his name.

Consumers have choices. We can remain sheep or fight back by not buying certain goods. Free trade favours large economies not small ones.

Trump has said a lot of crap he will never be able to follow up on. Start with his crap about NAFTA. If anyone does the research they will see the US benefitted most from it contrary to Trump having you believe it was Mexico. Whether the cheap labour stays in Mexico and works for low wages or smuggles itself into the US and does the same, they don't benefit-its a tiny elite who control the labour market wages that do. Free trade provides greater access to cheaper labour with no regulations. Trump was the first to use it to make his money. He would never hire Americans to do his clothes line. He knew the standard of living would require he pay more. H e preferred Bangladeshi slaves.

Nationalist my ass. He's for cheap slave labour to be easy to access. He could care les about Americans. He's a profit monger. His raison d'existence is to  enerate short term profit and not look at the long term consequence. He's a  loud fart. Nothing opening a window can't dissipate.

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35 minutes ago, Argus said:

So what? The point remains that trade between the US and Canada is largely even, though skewed more towards us exporting raw materials and importing finished goods. So if you end it you bring home X jobs and you lose X+Y jobs.

 

Nothing special about Canada....the U.S. should make decisions that support U.S. interests, as should Canada.   Trump is right about extracting more fees for Keystone XL if Canada refuses to build east-west pipelines.   Canada should pay more when it can't get things done by itself.

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5 minutes ago, Rue said:

Its time Canada grew some balls, and told the US in many markets to kiss our ass and trade instead with Europe, Australia, New Zealand, South America.

 

Was time a long time ago....Canada has been milking foreign investment and easy access to U.S. markets for generations.

 

Quote

Consumers have choices. We can remain sheep or fight back by not buying certain goods. Free trade favours large economies not small ones.

 

The list of products and services that Canadians have to boycott now is so long that most Canadians would need a smartphone app to keep track of them all.

Stop being so dependent on U.S. and other foreign owned corporations.  

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3 minutes ago, bush_cheney2004 said:

Stop being so dependent on U.S. and other foreign owned corporations.  

What a nonsense argument. In the global environment large corporations have a competitive advantage and there is nothing Canada can do about that. More importantly, many of these so-called "American" corporations only do a minority of their business in the US. For Apple, Asia and Europe are bigger than the US in terms of net sales and growth potential. The US is a forever shrinking part of the global economy and it will eventually realize that trying to screw over trading partners is determental to American prosperity. 

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