Accommodating male/female segregation for Muslims?

[Argus]

Both verses are wrong translated. The arabic word which is translated as "or" does not mean "or" but it means "so" in the verses.

So verses means that "Muslim man can only be in sexual relationship with their wife, so which they married by mutual agreement."

There is no word in the verses which means "slave" or something similar.

Those verses don't make sense if you take out the 'or' and replace it with 'so'. I don't mean their meaning changes, I mean there is no grammatical continuity in them.

I think they were translated by people who understand English and Arabic better than you do.

[Altai]

Those verses don't make sense if you take out the 'or' and replace it with 'so'. I don't mean their meaning changes, I mean there is no grammatical continuity in them.

I think they were translated by people who understand English and Arabic better than you do.

Just the opposite it makes sense when you make it "so". Because the word which is translated as "slave" is actually mean in Arabic idioms "the ones you have under your right hand" or "which you have with an agreement", so which you accept to protect, which you accept to meet his/her needs, which you have rights on them, this maybe your kids, your employees, your wife, your husband etc...

It also contradicts with other verses in Quran when you make it "or" because there are other verses which says you cant touch a "war captive woman" without being married with her and marriage depends on mutual agreement according to Quran. So you cant force her to marry with you.

[Altai]

I think they were translated by people who understand English and Arabic better than you do.

Yes and the problem is these verses are translated under the influence of hadiths. Hadiths are not Islamic sources. They are stories about pre and after Islamic Arab peninsula. Anyone who show hadiths as Islamic sources are not Muslims and the sad part is hundreds of millions so-called Muslims see the hadiths as Islamic sources. I have discussed with many hadith defenders and noone of them were able to reply my questions. They were getting mad and calling me "kafir".

Edited September 3, 2016 by Altai

[TimG]

We have much more free media than any other countries. How come you are producing this much of lies about my country?

Journalists are in jail. Your media is NOT free. You can complain and protest as much as you like but no one in a country that actually has press freedom is going to take you seriously because country that has laws that can be used to put journalists in jail cannot claim to have press freedom. This is reality. You believe in a fantasy. Edited September 3, 2016 by TimG

[Altai]

Journalists are in jail. Your media is NOT free. You can complain and protest as much as you like but no one in a country that actually has press freedom is going to take you seriously because country that has laws that can be used to put journalists in jail cannot claim to have press freedom. This is reality. You believe in a fantasy.

They are in jail because of violating laws. You can ask me for any journalists and I will research and tell you why he/she in jail. For example an American journalist is currently in jail. Do you know why ? Because of entering a military zone without permission and she is probably an American agent with journalist ID card. American Airforces tried to find her with two helicopters but we found her first and put to the prison.

Edited September 3, 2016 by Altai

[TimG]

They are in jail because of violating laws.

So what?

Laws that can be used to prosecute journalists for reporting are simply the tool that Erdogan uses to end press freedom.

Simply repeating Erdogan's deceptions does not make them true.

Press freedom does not exist if journalists can be put in jail for reporting.

Your American example was of a journalist who was trespassing and anyone who did the same thing would be in the same place.

That is different from being put in jail for this that are reported.

Reporters without Borders ranks Turkey 151 in the world.

Worse than Russia and much worse than Canada or the US.

https://rsf.org/en/turkey

You have no press freedom in Turkey.

Your media is not telling you the whole story whether you believe it or not.

You, at least, seek out sources outside of Turkey so you have a chance to learn more.

Edited September 3, 2016 by TimG

[Altai]

So what?

Laws that can be used to prosecute journalists for reporting are simply the tool that Erdogan uses to end press freedom.

Simply repeating Erdogan's deceptions does not make them true.

Press freedom does not exist if journalists can be put in jail for reporting.

Your American example was of a journalist who was trespassing and anyone who did the same thing would be in the same place.

That is different from being put in jail for this that are reported.

Reporters without Borders ranks Turkey 151 in the world.

Worse than Russia and much worse than Canada or the US.

https://rsf.org/en/turkey

You have no press freedom in Turkey.

Your media is not telling you the whole story whether you believe it or not.

You, at least, seek out sources outside of Turkey so you have a chance to learn more.

LoL

[DogOnPorch]

أو = or

أيديهم اليمنى تمتل = their right hand possesses = slaves

https://quran.com/23:6

[TimG]

LoL

I assume that means you are unable to compose anything resembling a rational response to the points I made.

[WestCoastRunner]

They are in jail because of violating laws. You can ask me for any journalists and I will research and tell you why he/she in jail. For example an American journalist is currently in jail. Do you know why ? Because of entering a military zone without permission and she is probably an American agent with journalist ID card. American Airforces tried to find her with two helicopters but we found her first and put to the prison.

Where do you currently live Altai? You of course don't have to answer that but your responses are deeply disturbing.

[WestCoastRunner]

They are in jail because of violating laws. You can ask me for any journalists and I will research and tell you why he/she in jail. For example an American journalist is currently in jail. Do you know why ? Because of entering a military zone without permission and she is probably an American agent with journalist ID card. American Airforces tried to find her with two helicopters but we found her first and put to the prison.

What is her name?

[Altai]

أو = or

أيديهم اليمنى تمتل = their right hand possesses = slaves

https://quran.com/23:6

I am searching and I see that I was wrong. So this Arabic word "أو" means both "or" and "so" but its used as "war captives" in the verse. Because I found another verse(33:50), which defines prophet to marry with whom and "wife" and "right hand posesses" are used as two different things. So its not the same thing as I was mentioned.

[Altai]

I assume that means you are unable to compose anything resembling a rational response to the points I made.

Nope just makes me laugh when I see your obstinate ideas about my country, without sharing any evidences to back them. So I wanted you to give me some examples for journalists detained for "sharing their ideas" about the govt. but you ignored.

[Altai]

Where do you currently live Altai? You of course don't have to answer that but your responses are deeply disturbing.

Yes different ideas may be disturbing sometimes, especially when you hate someones or somethings.

By the way sorry, I tried to use multiquote but somehow I could not.

[WestCoastRunner]

Yes different ideas may be disturbing sometimes, especially when you hate someones or somethings.

By the way sorry, I tried to use multiquote but somehow I could not.

Can you let us know the American journalist's name that is being held in prison?

[TimG]

So I wanted you to give me some examples for journalists detained for "sharing their ideas" about the govt.

I am not interested in whatever rationalization you want to concoct to justify the imprisonment.

The fact is no country with a free press rounds up journalists like Turkey did:

http://www.middleeasteye.net/columns/turkey-after-purge-freedom-expression-and-justice-thwarted-549819968

Turkey now leads the group of countries with the highest number of imprisoned journalists, with three times the number of journalists jailed in Iran and China. Twitter has censored over 23 accounts of journalists, at least 12 of them verified accounts.

The number of journalists arrested tells me that whatever excuse Erdogan claims it is nonsense.

Erdogan does not want a free press and aims to end it.

Edited September 3, 2016 by TimG

[Altai]

Can you let us know the American journalist's name that is being held in prison?

I am searching the biggest US media organs for the news about her and there is no. "Free" and not "state controlled" media does not make news about her. Maybe because of she is an agent ? Who knows.

[WestCoastRunner]

I am searching the biggest US media organs for the news about her and there is no. "Free" and not "state controlled" media does not make news about her. Maybe because of she is an agent ? Who knows.

Who knows? You are the one that said she was thrown in prison. Did your news media not mention her name?

[Altai]

Who knows? You are the one that said she was thrown in prison. Did your news media not mention her name?

I give you the tips. You can easily find her name yourself. US Presidency spokesman said that "I cant explain that why she was in Syria."

Edited September 3, 2016 by Altai

[TimG]

I am searching the biggest US media organs for the news about her and there is no. "Free" and not "state controlled" media does not make news about her. Maybe because of she is an agent ? Who knows.

You obviously did not look very hard.

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/american-journalist-lindsey-snell-detained-turkey-violating-military-zone-n640926

Edited September 3, 2016 by TimG

[Argus]

I am searching and I see that I was wrong. So this Arabic word "أو" means both "or" and "so" but its used as "war captives" in the verse. Because I found another verse(33:50), which defines prophet to marry with whom and "wife" and "right hand posesses" are used as two different things. So its not the same thing as I was mentioned.

And Islam defines the world into two camps, the house of peace, which is Islam, and the house of war, which is all other lands. Therefore, anyone who is an infidel in another land can be construed as being at war with Islam is a legitimate victim of rape.

[DogOnPorch]

Quite correct....Dar-al-Harb and Dar-al-Islam.

When Islam is referred to as the Religion of Peace...this is the reference.

[Argus]

To get back to the accommodation issue...

This gender segregation thing offends a lot of thinking Canadians because it's another sign of the deeply ingrained misogyny within Muslim society. We see it represented throughout Muslim societies, and in the whole long 'niquab' debate, which most see as a very outward, in-your-face sign of the oppression of women.

This all harkens back the koran, which says women and men should not socialize or speak together outside the family except when strictly necessary, and that their eyes must be cast down when they do. Its that deep antipathy the Muslim religion holds for women and their dangerous sexual attractiveness. This has been interpreted by a growing number of Muslims who say women must blanket themselves in fabric in order to hide the sight of their bodies, hair, and sometimes even faces from male eyes (males need not bother, of course).

The swimming pool s a reflection of this since Muslim men do not want their little girls in bathing suits being looked at by little boys, especially non-Muslim boys.

[?Impact]

The 1917 Code of Canon Law, canon 1262, stated:

1. It is desirable that, consistent with ancient discipline, women be separated from men in church.

2. Men, in a church or outside a church, while they are assisting at sacred rites, shall be bare-headed, unless the approved mores of the people or peculiar circumstances of things determine otherwise; women, however, shall have a covered head and be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord.

This was not carried forward in the 1983 Code of Cannon law, those Catholics have 33+ years on the Muslims in progressive ideas of equality.

Some of course still dispute this because the Bible (New Testament) clearly tells us:

1 Corinthians 11:3-16

But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God. Every man praying or prophesying, having his head covered, dishonoureth his head. But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head: for that is even all one as if she were shaven. For if the woman be not covered, let her also be shorn: but if it be a shame for a woman to be shorn or shaven, let her be covered. For a man indeed ought not to cover his head, forasmuch as he is the image and glory of God: but the woman is the glory of the man. For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man. For this cause ought the woman to have power on her head because of the angels. Nevertheless neither is the man without the woman, neither the woman without the man, in the Lord. For as the woman is of the man, even so is the man also by the woman; but all things of God. Judge in yourselves: is it comely that a woman pray unto God uncovered? Doth not even nature itself teach you, that, if a man have long hair, it is a shame unto him? But if a woman have long hair, it is a glory to her: for her hair is given her for a covering. But if any man seem to be contentious, we have no such custom, neither the churches of God.

[dialamah]

The 1917 Code of Canon Law, canon 1262, stated:

1. It is desirable that, consistent with ancient discipline, women be separated from men in church.

2. Men, in a church or outside a church, while they are assisting at sacred rites, shall be bare-headed, unless the approved mores of the people or peculiar circumstances of things determine otherwise; women, however, shall have a covered head and be modestly dressed, especially when they approach the table of the Lord.

This was not carried forward in the 1983 Code of Cannon law, those Catholics have 33+ years on the Muslims in progressive ideas of equality.

Canon = Hadith?

We have done a lot in the last 50 years, that's for sure - even outside of the Catholic faith. I'm all too happy to drag the less advanced societies into the modern age, kick and scream as they might.