-1=e^ipi Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 Failed coup will give Erdogan the excuse he needs to take absolute control of the country and turn it into a facist state. Quote
eyeball Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 Oh well, it's not like we haven't made bffs out of dictatorships in the region before. Move along as they say, hardly worth popping any corn over it. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) I would imagine that in a cosmopolitan city such as Istanbul there would be no support for islamist regime. This night could really be good news or terribly bad news depending on whether the coup has succeeded or if there is a start of a civil war in Turkey.In my one experience, Istanbul is not that cosmo beyond the touristy and wealthy areas. There is a huge zone around the city's core that is more traditional. Anyway, the coup leaders seem to be different from the usual secularists who have arisen in such times. Edited July 16, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
marcus Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 A coup to restore democracy. A bottle of wine to treat alcoholism. A box of cookies to treat diabetes. A pack of cigarettes to cure cancer. Quote "What do you think of Western civilization?" Gandhi was asked. "I think it would be a good idea," he said.
-TSS- Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 It is downright patronising to believe that the western style of democracy suits every country everywhere. Muslim countries usually thrive best when they have a military regime. When they have free elections they tend to elect islamist nutjobs like in Egypt. Quote
msj Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 Yeah, it ain't patronizing to claim billions of people need military dictatorships in order to be effectively ruled.... Quote If a believer demands that I, as a non-believer, observe his taboos in the public domain, he is not asking for my respect but for my submission. And that is incompatible with a secular democracy. Flemming Rose (Dutch journalist) My biggest takeaway from economics is that the past wasn't as good as you remember, the present isn't as bad as you think, and the future will be better than you anticipate. Morgan Housel http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2016/01/14/things-im-pretty-sure-about.aspx
Argus Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 The Turks voted for Erdogan, unfortunately. He seems to be what a large number of them want. Remember that Erdogan eliminated all free press years ago. So the election was not remotely fair. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 Failed coup will give Erdogan the excuse he needs to take absolute control of the country and turn it into a facist state. Yes, one of his first acts today was firing thousands of judges. What have they to do with the coup? Nothing, but he doubted their loyalty to him and now had the excuse to get rid of them and ensure every single judge is loyal to his party and will do as they're told. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
JamesHackerMP Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 Pity the coup was a bigger fiasco than the one in Moscow in 1991, in that case. Quote "We're not above nature, Mr Hacker, we're part of it. Men are animals, too!" "I know that, I've just come from the House of Commons!" [Yes, Minister]
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 Remember that Erdogan eliminated all free press years ago. So the election was not remotely fair. It is certainly not as fair as it should be but he still enjoys substantial support in the country. That is the sad reality. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 16, 2016 Report Posted July 16, 2016 (edited) It is downright patronising to believe that the western style of democracy suits every country everywhere. Muslim countries usually thrive best when they have a military regime. When they have free elections they tend to elect islamist nutjobs like in Egypt.What's surprising about that election is how close it was despite decades of oppressive military rule:https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egyptian_presidential_election,_2012 There's a striking Cairo versus the rest split on the vote too. Actually, I found Morsi less annoying than Erdogan. He didn't seem to have the same ego but, given the vote, he should not have ploughed ahead with so many anti-secular changes. Edited July 16, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
Big Guy Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) I would not be surprised if Erdogan is the organizer behind this attempted coup. He has been trying different methods of centralizing power in his hands and some of the moderates have been opposing him. This latest "coup" attempt gives him free reign to wipe out his opposition. His latest move is to arrest over 3,000 military and dump about the same number of judges. It was the military and judicial system which was thwarting his attempts to gain power and now he is getting a free hand and using this event as an excuse. It will be interesting to see how the fellow members of NATO will see this move towards a dictatorship and their (our) obligation to support Turkeys military ambitions. Edited July 17, 2016 by Big Guy Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
eyeball Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 It'll just be like old times for most. Quote I said now watch what you say they'll be calling you a radical, a liberal, oh fanatical criminal
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) It will be interesting to see how the fellow members of NATO will see this move towards a dictatorship and their (our) obligation to support Turkeys military ambitions. The individual members of NATO may make some polite noises but they will continue to cooperate fully with Erdogan. Europe wants more secure borders - the details on how that is achieved will be left to the locals. Edited July 17, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 I would not be surprised if Erdogan is the organizer behind this attempted coup. He has been trying different methods of centralizing power in his hands and some of the moderates have been opposing him. This latest "coup" attempt gives him free reign to wipe out his opposition. His latest move is to arrest over 3,000 military and dump about the same number of judges. It was the military and judicial system which was thwarting his attempts to gain power and now he is getting a free hand and using this event as an excuse. . Gulen is saying something similar: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2016/jul/16/fethullah-gulen-turkey-coup-erdogan Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
?Impact Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 I would not be surprised if Erdogan is the organizer behind this attempted coup. As soon as he began to gain the upper hand, I said to myself the conspiracy theories are only moments away. Quote
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 I see Erdogan is already demanding Gulen's extradition: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2016/jul/16/erdogan-calls-on-obama-to-extradite-terrorist-fethullah-gulen-to-turkey-for-trial-video Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
Argus Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 As soon as he began to gain the upper hand, I said to myself the conspiracy theories are only moments away. All you needed to know about Erdogen came when those tape recordings emerged of his family and cronies making corrupt deals. He claimed it was all a plot and arrested and fired the judges, prosecutors and police involved in the investigation. Then he had the government build him a 1000 room palace. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Argus Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 I see Erdogan is already demanding Gulen's extradition: https://www.theguardian.com/world/video/2016/jul/16/erdogan-calls-on-obama-to-extradite-terrorist-fethullah-gulen-to-turkey-for-trial-video Unlike Turkey he will need actual evidence to gain the courts cooperation. Quote "A liberal is someone who claims to be open to all points of view — and then is surprised and offended to find there are other points of view.” William F Buckley
Big Guy Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 As soon as he began to gain the upper hand, I said to myself the conspiracy theories are only moments away. When an attempted military "coup" takes place in a nation of about 75 million with the second largest standing military force in NATO, after the U.S. Armed Forces, with an estimated strength of 495,000 deployable forces and only a couple tanks and hundreds of soldiers involved then conspiracy theories should quickly be addressed. The immediate reaction to the attempted coup and surprisingly large numbers of "civilians" armed with national flags and coordinated chants favoring Erdogan might add to the skepticism of this event. Methinks he always had the upper hand since he had a lot to do with what the lower hand was doing. Quote Note - For those expecting a response from Big Guy: I generally do not read or respond to posts longer then 300 words nor to parsed comments.
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) When an attempted military "coup" takes place in a nation of about 75 million with the second largest standing military force in NATO, after the U.S. Armed Forces, with an estimated strength of 495,000 deployable forces and only a couple tanks and hundreds of soldiers involved then conspiracy theories should quickly be addressed. The immediate reaction to the attempted coup and surprisingly large numbers of "civilians" armed with national flags and coordinated chants favoring Erdogan might add to the skepticism of this event. Methinks he always had the upper hand since he had a lot to do with what the lower hand was doing. It's possible they encouraged it. But organized it? Some of these rebels may be executed. The govt is claiming they were going to fire a lot of these guys soon so the plotters had to move, ready or not. Edited July 17, 2016 by SpankyMcFarland Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
SpankyMcFarland Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 Unlike Turkey he will need actual evidence to gain the courts cooperation. Something tells me the Turkish equivalent of plea bargaining is producing evidence right now. Quote ‘How small we make our worlds. Gather them in, tighten them up into little castles of fear.’
Rue Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 My problem is Erdogan controls the press in Turkey at the moment so the wire stories coming out the last day or so are all fragmented. Having been paid to write stories for wire service reporters who sat in the King David Hotel drinking and then passing off my words as their own I tend to be a tad cynical with wire services like Reuters and no offence many tabloids that rely on them and not on first hand analysis and reports. All I see like the rest of you is Erdogan has taken the opportunity of this alleged failed coups to suspend the judiciary. He already suspended free speech and press, now its the judiciary and we hear claims of 6,000 soldiers. What makes no sense to me is if you know anything about the Turkish Armed Forces it hasn't had a problem in the past if it genuinely wanted to seize power. Its done so a few times. The difference is in past coups the Generals ran the coups. In this coups you hear of no senior military involved and you can decipher one thing. Armed fighter jets allegedly sent helicopters back to their bases. That means the air force was not involved. Also for the army to move so quickly to crush it would suggest the upper echelon was not involved. So if we believe its a faction, it makes strange news because a faction without higher up support would never succeed. It just does not pass the smell test for a genuine coups. What we also know is Erdogan has many times in the past when he does a major flip flop in his foreign or domestic policy have an uprising on the streets where he calls on people to parade and support him. This is about the 5th or 6th time in 3 years he's done a major flip flop in domestic economic or foreign policy and then presto there is uprising on the streets. I am a tad cynical with Erdogan. Was it genuine, did he orchestrate it, was it a military faction upset with his sudden announcement he supports Assad again. Who knows. You have a man that not days ago was calling for Assad's head in Syria, was looking the other way as ISIL used parts of Turkey to invade Syria and retreat, was not so subtle in supporting ISIL's battles with his own Kurds and now suddenly he's pro Assad. This is what, a few months after his air force shot down a Russian fighter going after ISIL ground forces retreating into Turkey and Turkey's no.1 tourist source, Russia cutting all tourism? Who the hell really knows what is going on internally. The US's current regime, Obama is deeply tied to him but watching Obama's lame duck office see its time slowly slipping away is it possible the CIA supporting Erdogan were undercut by other US government agencies? Is Erdogan now considered expendable by the West for signalling support of Assad? I mean does anyone know. The West hates Assad as much as they do ISIL. They fight both at the same time while ISIL and Assad fight each other. None of it makes coherent sense. Its a free for all muddle because Obama and Erdogan in essence created ISIL and lost control of it as part of a Muslim Brotherhood vision to topple Libya and Syria and replace them with Muslim Brotherhood states then saw Erdogan remain supporting ISIL and looking the other way with their hiding in his country. Erdogan was at first allied strongly with Syria and Iran against Israel and the Kurds and Sunni Muslims in Syria then flippity flop against Assad and Iran but still against the Kurds and Israel after being an ally of Israel at one point. Erdogan was pro Putin, then he flipped against him, now he's signaled rapproachment with him. Likewise with Israel. Does anyone get him? He hates Syria, iran Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Jordan, Israel but reluctantly has turned to Israel and Russia in the last month before the flip flop on Syria. The economy in Turkey almost collapsed twice n the last year and he's had riots on his streets and deadly put downs of those uprisings-so this sudden display of street popularity months after brutally putting his people down in public for demanding his resignation is just strange to the point of absurd. The news depicting him like he's a folk hero like Boris Yaltsin putting down his own army is full of b.s. The alleged military uprising was not wide spread at all but in very defined pockets where there was population. If I did not know any better its a ruse to purge his own army and if it is...if his generals think he is coming or them in the next months, there will be a real coups like the one in Egypt. I predicted on this forum there would be a coups within a year last year but I meant a real one, not an isolated fragmented one. For me and many we've read stories of how the military is fed up with the handling of the economy and his suspending basic legal rights. They also don't like his handling of not just Syria but the Kurds. He's seen as incoherent on dealing with the Kurds. We shall see how long he lasts. The US needs Turkey as a vital air base in its air war against ISIL. Hell nothing would surprise me. This could even be a classic Putin KGB move planting strategically placed agitators within certain units of the Turkish army simply wanting to cause instability. How would anyone know? If it was Russian or American shenanigans no one will know. If its Erdogan shenanigans no one will know. Not for now anyways. This story will keep unfolding. The question to ask is, who most benefits from this story's aftermath. If its Erdogan I would say be suspicious of him. Quote
-1=e^ipi Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 (edited) This whole thing is too suspicious. What kind of a coup only lasts a few hours and only contains 3000 troops in a country of 75 million? ISIS has 10 times that many troops. Why would the people who performed the coup attempt it if they had no ability to succeed... unless they were fed false information by someone who would benefit from a failed coup? Who benefits the most from this failed coup? Erdogan. It wouldn't surprise me if Erdogan caused the whole thing. Edited July 17, 2016 by -1=e^ipi Quote
-TSS- Posted July 17, 2016 Report Posted July 17, 2016 I agree. Gives him an excuse to carry out a purge in the military as well as the judiciary. Quote
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